Pro's and con's of Leaf

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

large houses in the states can have upto 400A split phase feeds, here in almost all cases except 3 phase, we get a 60/80 feed single phase, even smaller US houses typically have 200A split phase 240 V supply supplies, thats in excess of 48 kw of power at 240 , we in ireland typical have a consumer unit with 40A fuses, providing under 10Kw od power , see , simple

Thats why teslas can be charged in certain homes in the US

I don't think so

The reason they can charge both cars at home is because they have more or less the same average commute as most other people, you keep assuming that both 90kWh cars arrive home everyday with 0% charge left, we all know this is just NOT true

nokia69

josip wrote: »

Solar PV won't be much use charging an EV overnight unless you have a powerwall or similar to dump it into during the day.
But if EVs are so inexpensive to run, how would one ever achieve payback on a powerwall investment?

You assume battery prices are static, try thinking 5 or 10 years ahead, we are about to see the end of the oil age, things will get interesting very soon

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I don't think so

The reason they can charge both cars at home is because they have more or less the same average commute as most other people, you keep assuming that both 90kWh cars arrive home everyday with 0% charge left, we all know this is just NOT true

sorry I know so , average split phase supply in the US is 200A, larger houses often have 400 A. thats why they can reasonably charge big batteries

if you predict a future where home charging is predominant then the supply to the house must be capable of charging the car to its capacity in a reasonable time frame. If I want to drive to granny on saturday, its hardly acceptable to starting charging on thursday !!

if on the other hand you regard home charging as a stop gap technology , then you need to focus on the provision of top notch FCP networks that have sufficient capacity and power to service the needs of the users,

IN ireland , with the severe limitations on domestic power, home charging doesnt have much of a future

even today ,m if I was to buy a second leaf, I would be hard pushed to complete both charge cycles in the night rate period even with 6Kw chargers. and thats at very modest battery sizes.

home charging, in ireland , is a stop gap solution that works because present battery capacities are so low

stesaurus

nokia69 wrote: »

We won't, and by the date you think it might happen we will be slowly converting to solar PV

Maybe in some countries but with low levels of sunshine and no feed in tariff/cheap storage PV is pointless in this country. People will take a long time convincing of the costs-benefits ratio even if this changes.
Paddy down the round will be like "I'm not putting up feckin expensive PV panels for the 5 minutes of sun we get before it rains." but he will be buying bigger tv's, fridges, double cookers etc. Then his kids will be forcing him to get holographic ps6, e-ink walls for the bedroom, smart tech to connect everything including the dog etc.
I just can't see home PV generation being able to cope with our future usage. I'm sceptical of renewable anyway so could be just my bias.

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

I don't think so

The reason they can charge both cars at home is because they have more or less the same average commute as most other people, you keep assuming that both 90kWh cars arrive home everyday with 0% charge left, we all know this is just NOT true

even if they arrive with 50% charge , work the maths on a 16A charger that the ESB provide as standard in Ireland, its not a pretty answer

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

Maybe in some countries but with low levels of sunshine and no feed in tariff/cheap storage PV is pointless in this country. People will take a long time convincing of the costs-benefits ratio even if this changes.
Paddy down the round will be like "I'm not putting up feckin expensive PV panels for the 5 minutes of sun we get before it rains." but he will be buying bigger tv's, fridges, double cookers etc. Then his kids will be forcing him to get holographic ps6, e-ink walls for the bedroom, smart tech to connect everything including the dog etc.
I just can't see home PV generation being able to cope with our future usage. I'm sceptical of renewable anyway so could be just my bias.

Microgeneration is a very dodgy solution anyway and typically relies on significant subsidies and even then the payment period can reach to 10+ years

its not a solution to grid generation

I agree, that power consumption in advanced societies like ireland will continue to rise , its interesting to look at the US , where houses are routinely provided with 50kw feeds , as against our 13Kw and large US houses will routinely have twice that, whereas here 3-phase domestic supply is rare and limited

stesaurus

nokia69 wrote: »

IMO the Leaf and the i3 do more than even the score, the 200mile EV at the same price is the death blow, you can't see it now because for some very strange reason you think the whole world needs/wants a 700KM range before they make the switch, its the same kind of thinking that has you believing we will all need 3 phase

nokia69 wrote: »

I don't think so

The reason they can charge both cars at home is because they have more or less the same average commute as most other people, you keep assuming that both 90kWh cars arrive home everyday with 0% charge left, we all know this is just NOT true

You're preaching to the converted in here regarding journey distances. We all know you won't need full capacity each day but the problem is not us it's the general public. They will want massive batteries 'AND' the ability to charge them very quickly from empty before they consider them.
It doesn't matter that they will eventually realise you won't use the capacity each day it's just that initial period.

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

even if they arrive with 50% charge , work the maths on a 16A charger that the ESB provide as standard in Ireland, its not a pretty answer

it doesn't need to be a pretty answer or even one you like, it only needs to work and like I said its working just fine now, people don't need 3 phase now and they won't need it in the future

nokia69

s.welstead wrote: »

You're preaching to the converted in here regarding journey distances. We all know you won't need full capacity each day but the problem is not us it's the general public. They will want massive batteries 'AND' the ability to charge them very quickly from empty before they consider them.
It doesn't matter that they will eventually realise you won't use the capacity each day it's just that initial period.

They will figure it out soon enough, I bet plenty of ICE drivers in France are doing some thinking about the issue over the last week or 2

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

it doesn't need to be a pretty answer or even one you like, it only needs to work and like I said its working just fine now, people don't need 3 phase now and they won't need it in the future

we have a 130 km commute , at that level of milage the economics of EVs and charging at home makes terrific sense

we complete a 6kw in under 5 hours and typically return home with 30% which is the normal minimum we let the car run to ,

we have a 8 hour window in the night rate ( car leaves at eight a,m )

with two cars we would consume all the available night hour time to recover the charge. Thats fine, add a bigger battery and the system would be incapable of providing any more power. as it is we have to prioritise electric consumers at night

when we had only a 16A feed, on nights that I was out late ( returning at 2am) , I had to sit at a nearly FCP at 2 in the morning because the 16A service would not have the car ready at 8am

its "just ' works now and its deficiencies will be readily apparent as we move into the bigger battery future

stesaurus

BoatMad wrote: »

Microgeneration is a very dodgy solution anyway and typically relies on significant subsidies and even then the payment period can reach to 10+ years

its not a solution to grid generation

I agree, that power consumption in advanced societies like ireland will continue to rise , its interesting to look at the US , where houses are routinely provided with 50kw feeds , as against our 13Kw and large US houses will routinely have twice that, whereas here 3-phase domestic supply is rare and limited

Exactly, cost of PV panels, installation, maintenance, replacement, power storage etc. It's a hard sell and would need subsidies which could be better used to fund better projects.

Personally I'd love us to get over our stupid fear of nuclear and go big into it. Generating large amounts of electricity cheaply and efficiently in single plants rather than dotting windmills around the place and burning fossil fuel.

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

Exactly, cost of PV panels, installation, maintenance, replacement, power storage etc. It's a hard sell and would need subsidies which could be better used to fund better projects.

Personally I'd love us to get over our stupid fear of nuclear and go big into it. Generating large amounts of electricity cheaply and efficiently in single plants rather than dotting windmills around the place and burning fossil fuel.

+1 on nuclear , wind turbines are a terrible terrible blot on our landscape

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

we have a 130 km commute , at that level of milage the economics of EVs and charging at home makes terrific sense

we complete a 6kw in under 5 hours and typically return home with 30% which is the normal minimum we let the car run to ,

we have a 9 hour window in the night rate

with two cars we would consume all the available night hour time to recover the charge. Thats fine, add a bigger battery and the system would be incapable of providing any more power. as it is we have to prioritise electric consumers at night

So if you had a bigger battery why would that change your commute

BoatMad wrote: »

its "just ' works now and its deficiencies will be readily apparent as we move into the bigger battery future

Again why will you suddenly drive more just because you have a bigger battery, do people with 15 gallon petrol tanks drive more than people with a 10 gallon tank ?

I don't think so

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

+1 on nuclear , wind turbines are a terrible terrible blot on our landscape

Nuclear, coal, natural gas ect are finished, the future is PV

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

Nuclear, coal, natural gas ect are finished, the future is PV

perhaps but not at a micro level, and there are huge issues about grid stability that have to be addressed before PV is any sort of a solution

its a long way away and maybe so long as to be infinite

stesaurus

I've doubled my normal mileage in the very short space of time I've had an EV. It's not inconceivable to think if I had a much bigger battery then i'd take a quick spin down to Galway and back, Kerry and back etc. Why not as it's cheap as chips, super easy to drive and a nice experience? It's honestly like first owning a car, driving for pleasure again and not worrying about a cost of a fill-up.

No chance is nuclear finished. Living in a dreamworld if you think we'll be able to generate enough power for this planet with PV

BoatMad

No chance is nuclear finished. Living in a dreamworld if you think we'll be able to generate enough power for this planet with PV

night time being also an inconvenient problem as well

stesaurus

BoatMad wrote: »

night time being also an inconvenient problem as well

Sure Elon will build each country a massive battery to store it all for night usage.

Or maybe we'll build enough PV in hot countries so that there's always somewhere in sunshine and we'll join this all up to 1 big giant grid that we'll all benefit from and share equally. And we'll do all of this because we can and we're human and essentially nice people.

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

Sure Elon will build each country a massive battery to store it all for night usage.

Or maybe we'll build enough PV in hot countries so that there's always somewhere in sunshine and we'll join this all up to 1 big giant grid that we'll all benefit from and share equally. And we'll do all of this because we can and we're human and essentially nice people.

Im sure Putin would be delighted to run a big lecky pipe .....

stesaurus

oh and sorry nokia69. I'm not taking the piss or trying to gang up here. Just a difference of opinions is all. Maybe I better get some work done now

nokia69

s.welstead wrote: »

No chance is nuclear finished. Living in a dreamworld if you think we'll be able to generate enough power for this planet with PV

I think its done, we will never see it in Ireland thats for sure, it takes years to build a nuclear plant and every year the price of PV falls, even places like France will make the move to PV

BoatMad wrote: »

perhaps but not at a micro level, and there are huge issues about grid stability that have to be addressed before PV is any sort of a solution

its a long way away and maybe so long as to be infinite

The millions of EVs will help with grid stability

It will happen in the next 10 years

Right now the electrical generation industry, the ICE and OPEC ect are like Eircom before the mobile phone came along

By 2030 all new cars will be EVs and most people will have PV or will be planning to buy it

nokia69

s.welstead wrote: »

oh and sorry nokia69. I'm not taking the piss or trying to gang up here. Just a difference of opinions is all. Maybe I better get some work done now

Its not just my opinion, plenty of other people can see it coming too, just keep an eye on a few trends and push them out a few years and it pretty clear whats about to happen

nokia69

s.welstead wrote: »

Sure Elon will build each country a massive battery to store it all for night usage.

or millions of small batteries in cars and houses

s.welstead wrote: »

Or maybe we'll build enough PV in hot countries so that there's always somewhere in sunshine and we'll join this all up to 1 big giant grid that we'll all benefit from and share equally. And we'll do all of this because we can and we're human and essentially nice people.

I doubt it, I don't like giving my money to OPEC for oil so I sure as 5hit won't like giving them money for PV electricity

BoatMad

The millions of EVs will help with grid stability

It will happen in the next 10 years

Right now the electrical generation industry, the ICE and OPEC ect are like Eircom before the mobile phone came along

By 2030 all new cars will be EVs and most people will have PV or will be planning to buy it

The EV bit we both agree on , because EV is a transport solution , PV is not ,

PV only works with feed in tariffs, you simply cannot with current and projected next 5 years of PV technology power your house from a PV setup on the roof of your average semi in Ireland.

Hence PV is essentially a parasitic generation on the grid, only available to function because a grid exists and acts as a giant battery . I see no rush to build vast PV farms on the same size as wind turbines in ireland either

V2G ( or G2V) is a very dubious prospect , lots off questions over its business case, effect on battery degradation and so forth . its re,mains an " interesting " experiment . Powerwall type solutions might be useful ,but today its a very expensive solution , you can buy a shedload of electricity from the grid for the capital outlays involved in PV and powerwall

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

Nuclear, coal, natural gas ect are finished, the future is PV

On the contrary, there will be a Nuclear renaissance in the not too distant future with a whole lot of newer technologies being explored , molten salt reactors is gaining huge interest due to the incredible safety features. Which was discovered in the 1950's/60's.

The worlds energy consumption is going to explode in the future, and the more transport you move from oil to electricity is more than I could calculate, this won't be met by solar PV or wind energy and while it might supply a good proportion of our current energy demands today , just wait until more and more oil based energy and transport changes to the grid.

You can only install so many wind turbines and solar panels, though it would be a good idea if Ireland added solar PV to the grid.

Water John

PV solar is the next tech into the electricity grid.
Significant plant will be built within 5 years.
Our solar in the southern half of the country is on a par at least with Germany.

EV storage will be an important part of the overall energy mix.

Should we have a plan to upgrade domestic supply? Electrical energy will be a key foundation of a carbon neutral country. Better to spend the money on infrastructure than in fines.

nokia69

I recommend this video to anyone with a passing interest in the subject, watch it and think about it for a few days, its very hard to argue with the trends and also the conclusions they obviously lead to

100% electric transportation and 100% solar power by 2030, its coming and it can't be stopped

Sabre Man

This thread has drifted very far from the pros and cons of the Leaf.

Water John

That's my home ekker for tonight Nokia.

imfml

Sabre Man wrote: »

This thread has drifted very far from the pros and cons of the Leaf.

Back on the subject, I had my maths done & was ready to order at Leaf at the weekend, trading in a 12 yr old car.

Now I see Nissan are offer €8k scrapage on the Pulsar. I want to switch to an EV, but I'd be a fool not to consider that offer. Throws some things back in the air....