Does school prepare us for later life?

Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes. I realised that later. Which makes your cherry picking even more egregious. Why? Because Ireland didn't have free education until 1970 (meaning people 58 years and older are educated by and large to primary school level) and after that we didn't meet the European average on university admissions for more than a decade.

Eugene Norman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Here in the UK there is a major shortage of teachers, particularly maths teachers. They often work 12-15 hour days which would drain anyone's morale. The pay is decent (£30k, the average wage is about £27k) but insufficient IMO.

Here is a piece from The Economist on the subject.

Slightly above average isn't going to attract the best intellectuals. Of course teachers need to be more than that.

ancapailldorcha

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Slightly above average isn't going to attract the best intellectuals. Of course teachers need to be more than that.

This wasn't my point. The point is that if teachers are just waiting for the evenings, weekends and, eventually, retirement then students are likely to get an inferior education.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Maybe in the earlier stages, but in secondary school, they aren't happy. They are full of over-stressed students being told what way they're allowed to dress or how long they can have their hair, that they have absolutely no say in the ruling process that governs their school lives. Oh, and all of your efforts to learn two years worth of useless information in order to pass a three-hour exam will be render your life meaningless and your dreams dead if you don't do it.

But hey - it'll be fun!

I'd love to see some evidence for your woefully negative perception of children's attitudes to their schools in Ireland?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd love to see some evidence for your woefully negative perception of children's attitudes to their schools in Ireland?

1 - I lived through it.
2 - The vast majority of people who I know who have done it regard it as the same.
3 - I have friends who's kids are going through it right now who regard it as the same.
4 - I have a nephew doing his leaving this year who regards it as the same.
5 - Media stories every year about how to get the most points in exams and scramble for college places.
6 - The fact that most discussion between LC students on the subject of school seems to be about exams and what's going to come up and what not to bother learning because there's no chance of it coming up or you can work around it.

If it's changed and there's a no longer an emphasis on stressing students or passing exams irrespective of what they learn or don't learn on the way I'd be open to hearing about it, but would be very surprised.

Dughorm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This point and your link to the American Chamber actually backs up my argument. Maths is a creative subject and the fact that this report can identify that some "quite good candidates" are attempting to rote learn maths really points the blame at the devastating approach to teaching so many "quite good candidates" are exposed to.

The syllabi, *can* provide the necessary space for creative thought, as limited as that may be these days due to the dumbing down process, but it is really dreadful teaching which really prevents students exploring their problem solving skills.

This points to the flaw in your "received wisdom" that the education system here was designed to discourage students to think creatively for cultural reasons. Students who were exposed to a decent level of mathematics/science (as evidenced by past syllabi) were able to be very creative and become the workforce which attracted the first multinationals etc... to Ireland in the 1970s onwards. No lack of creative thought then in an era seen as "oppressive" or at least anti-progressive by today's yardstick.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

1 - I lived through it.
2 - The vast majority of people who I know who have done it regard it as the same.
3 - I have friends who's kids are going through it right now who regard it as the same.
4 - I have a nephew doing his leaving this year who regards it as the same.
5 - Media stories every year about how to get the most points in exams and scramble for college places.
6 - The fact that most discussion between LC students on the subject of school seems to be about exams and what's going to come up and what not to bother learning because there's no chance of it coming up or you can work around it.

If it's changed and there's a no longer an emphasis on stressing students or passing exams irrespective of what they learn or don't learn on the way I'd be open to hearing about it, but would be very surprised.

I'm not actually interested in presenting anything to the contrary, as it's pointless trying to argue against anecdotal evidence. I will admit though I was expecting something more substantial, given that there are over 300,000 students in in full-time post-primary education in Ireland.

Source: http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/Key-Statistics-2014-2015.pdf

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not actually interested in presenting anything to the contrary, as it's pointless trying to argue against anecdotal evidence. I will admit though I was expecting something more substantial, given that there are over 300,000 students in in full-time post-primary education in Ireland.

Source: http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Key-Statistics/Key-Statistics-2014-2015.pdf

To the best of my knowledge, no survey has ever been conducted (probably for a reason) so Im not entitely sure what you expected. But you asked whst it was based on and I told you. To argue to the contrary, is to argue that LC studrnts are happy and fulfilled.

Certainly, the link you posted appears to have no connection to student mood.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge, no survey has ever been conducted (probably for a reason) so Im not entitely sure what you expected. But you asked whst it was based on and I told you. To argue to the contrary, is to argue that LC studrnts are happy and fulfilled.

Certainly, the link you posted appears to have no connection to student mood.

It's probably a good thing I wouldn't depend on your knowledge then and I'd be more inclined to read the whole school evaluation reports for myself which are compiled by the DES:

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Inspection-Reports-Publications/Whole-School-Evaluation-Reports-List/

I expected some proper evidence, rather than anecdotes that wouldn't even represent 1% of the current post-primary school population.

I only asked for what evidence you had to support your opinion, I told you I couldn't argue against your anecdotes, nor was I even going to attempt to.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's probably a good thing I wouldn't depend on your knowledge then and I'd be more inclined to read the whole school evaluation reports for myself which are compiled by the DES:

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Inspection-Reports-Publications/Whole-School-Evaluation-Reports-List/

I expected some proper evidence, rather than anecdotes that wouldn't even represent 1% of the current post-primary school population.

I only asked for what evidence you had to support your opinion, I told you I couldn't argue against your anecdotes, nor was I even going to attempt to.

I never presented it as statistical fact and never meant to give you the impression it was. But unless you state that you disagree and your reasons for doing so, I dont see your motivations here?

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I never presented it as statistical fact and never meant to give you the impression it was. But unless you state that you disagree and your reasons for doing so, I dont see your motivations here?

You did though, because you've mentioned it a couple of times now on the thread and I wasn't bothered earlier asking you where you got your evidence because it certainly isn't in any way reflective of my experience or that of my peers or any of the media reports and whole school evaluation reports that I have to hand.

I figured you probably had more evidence than I had to hand to back up your opinion, so i figured I'd ask what evidence you actually have. That was my only motivation, and unfortunately as it turns out, you really don't have all that much evidence at all.

Would you accept the same level of evidence you've presented, if it contradicted your opinion?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You did though, because you've mentioned it a couple of times now on the thread and I wasn't bothered earlier asking you where you got your evidence because it certainly isn't in any way reflective of my experience or that of my peers or any of the media reports and whole school evaluation reports that I have to hand.

I figured you probably had more evidence than I had to hand to back up your opinion, so i figured I'd ask what evidence you actually have. That was my only motivation, and unfortunately as it turns out, you really don't have all that much evidence at all.

Would you accept the same level of evidence you've presented, if it contradicted your opinion?

Well, according to you I haven't presented any evidence. But I have presented an opinion that is shared by many students, past and present.

Now again: are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing or do you have an opinion here?

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well, according to you I haven't presented any evidence. But I have presented an opinion that is shared by many students, past and present.

Now again: are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing or do you have an opinion here?

I think, to be fair, I've demonstrated how your evidence for your opinion is completely unrepresentative of the actual statistics. On that basis, I disagree strongly with your opinion which appears to be based upon very little evidence. Y'know if you're trying to promote the idea of philosophy, critical thinking, and doing away with what you call "useless" subjects in school, I for one anyway would be thinking your evidence to back up your opinion would be a hell of a lot stronger than based upon merely anecdotal evidence. You no doubt are aware of the mantra that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Dughorm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

By cultural persistence you simply mean lazy teaching methods surely? Unless you think Dev is shaking a stick from the grave. (He was also a man dedicated to mathematics and heavily involved with DIAS, just saying)

Education systems developed around an ideological core, as Ireland's was in the post-independence years, rarely encourage creative or independent thinking.

Can you back this up? All education systems are ideological for starters....

The most important subjects on the curriculum for generations were Irish and religion, and little dissent was permitted in regards to either -- John B. Keane actually received death threats in the '60s for supporting the Language Freedom Movement.

They were important, still are to certain people, but to caricature the education system of the last century (incl. pre free state) to being primarily intended to serve up indoctrination in one or two subjects is just bad history.

Multinationals were never attracted to Ireland by the workforce. They came first for the cheap labor, and then for the tax breaks.

Unless you're blinkering the FDI of the time to solely consist of fruit of the loom type companies then this is plain nonsense. Sorry I can't be less blunt.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think, to be fair, I've demonstrated how your evidence for your opinion is completely unrepresentative of the actual statistics. On that basis, I disagree strongly with your opinion which appears to be based upon very little evidence. Y'know if you're trying to promote the idea of philosophy, critical thinking, and doing away with what you call "useless" subjects in school, I for one anyway would be thinking your evidence to back up your opinion would be a hell of a lot stronger than based upon merely anecdotal evidence. You no doubt are aware of the mantra that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Fristly, I never called a subject "useless" - again, stop making up arguments and attirubuting them to me.

Now to your argument: here's what you're saying here:
"On that [completely unrepresentative of the actual statistics basis] I disagree strongly with your opinion."
So: your logic here is that if something can not be proven empirically, it must therefore be false. As I said earlier, the same argument cane be used to prove the existance of God.

JackieBauer

I suppose school here in Ireland prepares you for later life in terms of still holding racist/sexist views. Although, the homophobia has lessened very significantly. I voted Yes (yay!)

Education wise, f.ucking forget about it

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fristly, I never called a subject "useless" - again, stop making up arguments and attirubuting them to me.

Now to your argument: here's what you're saying here:
"On that [completely unrepresentative of the actual statistics basis] I disagree strongly with your opinion."
So: your logic here is that if something can not be proven empirically, it must therefore be false. As I said earlier, the same argument cane be used to prove the existance of God.

I'd respectfully suggest you practice what you preach and don't make up arguments and attribute them to me. We're not arguing the existence of God here either.

You made a statement, a couple of times now, and when asked for evidence, all you presented was a handful of anecdotes. I expected hard data to support your opinion. I've presented hard data in the form of actual, quantifiable, independent evidence, that refutes your opinion.

I'm sure you're also familiar with the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd respectfully suggest you practice what you preach and don't make up arguments and attribute them to me. We're not arguing the existence of God here either.

Never said you did - how in the hell did you manage to take that literally...?

You made a statement, a couple of times now, and when asked for evidence, all you presented was a handful of anecdotes. I expected hard data to support your opinion. I've presented hard data in the form of actual, quantifiable, independent evidence, that refutes your opinion.

I'm sure you're also familiar with the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

We've been over this: I stated an opinion based on personal experience. The fact that no one has ever done a survey on it, does not mean that my personal experience is automatically wrong.

Now, I admit to only skimming through your links (there's a lot of it, in fairness) but I found nothing to contradict my point: in fact, I found nothing that actually stated the opinion of the students.

To clarify (and hopefully end this circular argument): I stated that the the Students find the Leaving Cert Syallabus stressful and unfulfilling and that the atmosphere in the media adds to this. If you wish to disagree fine - then please say you disagree (i.e. - that you think that the opposite is the case) and we can get back on topic.

BoatMad

I stated that the the Students find the Leaving Cert Syallabus stressful and unfulfilling

Theres not too much wrong with the syllabus, other then the nasty exam at the end

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BoatMad wrote: »

Theres not too much wrong with the syllabus, other then the nasty exam at the end

Fair point, exam more so - but it's the two years leading up to it.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Never said you did - how in the hell did you manage to take that literally...?

The very same way in which you appear to be consistently taking things in my post literally.

We've been over this: I stated an opinion based on personal experience. The fact that no one has ever done a survey on it, does not mean that my personal experience is automatically wrong.

This is why i said I wasn't going to argue with your personal experience, as my personal experience is the direct opposite of your own, so personal experience isn't worth well, jack really, when you appear to be putting forth extraordinary claims for which really, by your own admission - you have no evidence. That's a lot closer to 'existence of God' claims than expecting I should have to prove a negative. I could have gone all Christopher Hitchens and pointed out that which is asserted without evidence (your opinion), can be dismissed without evidence. But I didn't do that.

You've made numerous claims in this thread so far giving the impression that students are unhappy in post-primary schools in Ireland, and when I asked you for evidence, you gave me a handful of anecdotes. I gave you a source which includes reports on every school in Ireland, including statistics from each school on student morale, which in most secondary schools in Ireland is generally favourable. You gave me nothing. Squat.

Now, I admit to only skimming through your links (there's a lot of it, in fairness) but I found nothing to contradict my point: in fact, I found nothing that actually stated the opinion of the students.

As far as giving your opinion based upon examining the evidence goes, you're making me look like I'm shooting fish in a barrel here. It's embarrassing. Examine all the evidence first (you're right, there is a lot of it, that's the point!), then, at least you'll be able to give an informed opinion, rather than trying to give the impression that student morale is generally low and students are unhappy in Irish post-primary schools.

To clarify (and hopefully end this circular argument): I stated that the the Students find the Leaving Cert Syallabus stressful and unfulfilling and that the atmosphere in the media adds to this. If you wish to disagree fine - then please say you disagree (i.e. - that you think that the opposite is the case) and we can get back on topic.

To clarify, this isn't a circular argument. I've pointed out exactly what I disagree with, which is the impression you are attempting to give of student morale in Irish post primary schools. I'm not going to go back and quote every single post, but hopefully you won't take my paraphrasing literally and think I have any interest in misrepresenting your opinion, I really don't. It's obvious throughout your posts in this thread that you have a very low opinion of the Irish education system and Irish schools, and the fact is that you simply have no evidence that would stand up to any scrutiny if you expect your opinion should be taken seriously.

We're very much on topic here as the quality of their education unquestionably sets a person up for life. Education is the foundation upon which a person builds a life themselves and how they enjoy a better quality of living, and if their morale is low in the formative years of their lives, that stays with them throughout their lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The very same way in which you appear to be consistently taking things in my post literally.

So when you said "what you call "useless" subjects in school" you didn't actually mean to say that I called some subjects useless?

This is why i said I wasn't going to argue with your personal experience, as my personal experience is the direct opposite of your own, so personal experience isn't worth well, jack really, when you appear to be putting forth extraordinary claims for which really, by your own admission - you have no evidence. That's a lot closer to 'existence of God' claims than expecting I should have to prove a negative. I could have gone all Christopher Hitchens and pointed out that which is asserted without evidence (your opinion), can be dismissed without evidence. But I didn't do that.

You've made numerous claims in this thread so far giving the impression that students are unhappy in post-primary schools in Ireland, and when I asked you for evidence, you gave me a handful of anecdotes. I gave you a source which includes reports on every school in Ireland, including statistics from each school on student morale, which in most secondary schools in Ireland is generally favourable. You gave me nothing. Squat.

As far as giving your opinion based upon examining the evidence goes, you're making me look like I'm shooting fish in a barrel here. It's embarrassing. Examine all the evidence first (you're right, there is a lot of it, that's the point!), then, at least you'll be able to give an informed opinion, rather than trying to give the impression that student morale is generally low and students are unhappy in Irish post-primary schools.

The links seems mostly to be inspections of schools that have not interviewed or spoken to students about their concerns or experiences. So either there's something there I've missed (possible - in which case I'll need you to highlight it) or there's no opinions of the students themselves (in which case proves nothing, as it's the student opinions that form the basis of my opinion).

To clarify, this isn't a circular argument. I've pointed out exactly what I disagree with, which is the impression you are attending to give of student morale in Irish post primary schools. I'm not going to go back and quote every single post, but hopefully you won't take my paraphrasing literally and think I have any interest in misrepresenting your opinion, I really don't. It's obvious throughout your posts in this thread that you have a very low opinion of the Irish education system and Irish schools, and the fact is that you simply have no evidence that would stand up to any scrutiny if you expect your opinion should be taken seriously.

We're very much on topic here as the quality of their education unquestionably sets a person up for life. Education is the foundation upon which a person builds a life themselves and how they enjoy a better quality of living, and if their morale is low in the formative years of their lives, that stays with them throughout their lives.

In that case, do you agree with my opinion that students find the Leaving Cert course stressful and unfulfilling; or are you arguing the contrary?

One eyed Jack

I think with all due respect PCB, I'd have a better outcome attempting to have a two-way conversation with God, than I would were I to continue a discussion with someone who makes claims, and when asked for evidence that backs up those claims, throws out a handful of anecdotes and expects that the burden of proof switches to me to refute their claims.

I don't know what kind of critical thinking you studied in philosophy, but one thing I do know is I should have listened to Hitchens the first time and not even bothered.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think with all due respect PCB, I'd have a better outcome attempting to have a two-way conversation with God, than I would were I to continue a discussion with someone who makes claims, and when asked for evidence that backs up those claims, throws out a handful of anecdotes and expects that the burden of proof switches to me to refute their claims.

I don't know what kind of critical thinking you studied in philosophy, but one thing I do know is I should have listened to Hitchens the first time and not even bothered.

I've told you it was opinion twice now - and specified that it wasn't meant as fact. Where the hell does Hitchens come into it?!

Everything on the last two pages has bpiled down to one thing: you don't actually disagree with me.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Always got told to keep my hands of my pockets, now I stick my hands in other peoples pocket.

Bored_lad

JackieBauer wrote: »

I suppose school here in Ireland prepares you for later life in terms of still holding racist/sexist views. Although, the homophobia has lessened very significantly. I voted Yes (yay!)

Education wise, f.ucking forget about it

Would you care to enlighten us on how the Irish education system is racist and sexist.

One eyed Jack

JackieBauer wrote: »

I suppose school here in Ireland prepares you for later life in terms of still holding racist/sexist views. Although, the homophobia has lessened very significantly. I voted Yes (yay!)

Education wise, f.ucking forget about it

Bored_lad wrote: »

Would you care to enlighten us on how the Irish education system is racist and sexist.

I thought that poster was referring to children holding racist, sexist or homophobic views, and that Irish schools prepare those children who hold those views for later life.

No wonder they think education wise, forget about it - they themselves were never educated the first time round, or maybe they weren't educated in Ireland?

Bit of a head scratcher alright :pac:

Eugene Norman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fristly, I never called a subject "useless" - again, stop making up arguments and attirubuting them to me.

Now to your argument: here's what you're saying here:
"On that [completely unrepresentative of the actual statistics basis] I disagree strongly with your opinion."
So: your logic here is that if something can not be proven empirically, it must therefore be false. As I said earlier, the same argument cane be used to prove the existance of God.

Actually the argument would be for the non-existence of God.

Eugene Norman

Bored_lad wrote: »

Would you care to enlighten us on how the Irish education system is racist and sexist.

It's all there in the male white supremacy subject, which is obligatory.

(Of course the opposite is true. Schools teach anti racism etc).