Does school prepare us for later life?

mariaalice · 18-04-2016 10:24am

J Mysterio wrote: »

School definitely doesn't prepare you for life. It's about doing well academically. Then 5th year comes along and they tell you to choose a University course. What?

For students who are totally unsure about what career they might like to embark upon they invariably do Arts. It's most similar to what they have been doing in school after all. I remember walking into a toilet cubicle in Belfield once and above the toilet roll dispenser it said 'Arts Degree, please take one'.

There needs to be more time spent with students to have them seriously consider what their aptitudes are (academic, scientific, programmer, artistic, practical, outdoorsy) and how he/she can build a career doing what they like (and are good at). Not all students know from 13 that they want to be an Airline Pilot or Solicitor.

I think there is an equivelant of CSPE (Civic, Social & Political Education) in schools now but that class was a joke. I did a state exam in it and one of the questions was 'who is the taoiseach?', beneath a picture of him. That subject needed serious revamping and should have been ungraded, more of a talking shop w/ activities and trips.

I think School Counsellors and Career Guidance Experts need to be brought to the forefront in schools and potentially have their own department with specific responsibilites in a subject such as CSPE to work with kids.

The Education system needs to be more comprehensive and well rounded and not just academia, academia, academia. I think we all accept kids are kids till 18 at least so why not let them develop? The more academically inclined are more than welcome to apply themselves anyway before proceedingnm to do their Masters and PH.D.

The points system is broken also as it excludes certain students from doing what they would be good at or enjoy if they do not have a full ability in all their subjects. E.G a gifted art student may be excluded from course in Architecture if he cannot attain hight points in other unrelated subjects such Irish etc.

I met someone who when from a post leaving cert course to a uk university and got a degree in Architecture. I think it was Wolverhampton. The need for Irish is gone in a lot of cases, poor mathematical ability is holding a lot of people back, but that leads to the question: if students are let in to courses with foundation level maths and then don't do well who's fault is it.

Wanderer78 · 18-04-2016 10:30am

Dreadful system. Does a very bad job of preparing kids for adulthood. It's main objective is to create worker drones, but all its doing is making a lot of people very unhappy.

mariaalice · 18-04-2016 10:32am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Dreadful system. Does a very bad job of preparing kids for adulthood. It's main objective is to create worker drones, but all its doing is making a lot of people very unhappy.

So the whole goal of school's should be to make people happy?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-04-2016 10:41am

mariaalice wrote: »

So the whole goal of school's should be to make people happy?

I'd settle for it not going out of it's way to be a depressing void, personally.

Part of the issue is not so much what's on the syllabus, it's the actual experience of school and the over-emphasis on exams and unnessecary this-exam-will-map-your-entire-LIFE!!! fearmongering attitude that's massive counter-productive.

You can't say it "teaches" you something when, by it's own admission, it's not trying to teach you, it's just trying to get you to pass a series of exams.

Wanderer78 · 18-04-2016 10:42am

mariaalice wrote:

So the whole goal of school's should be to make people happy?

Why are kids unhappy going to school? Why are we making them do this? Education should be a fun thing to do but I see it making a lot of kids very unhappy. It's too competitive, too restrictive, too stressful. As I say, we have successfully made education unfun. This is a very bad approach to the well being of kids particularly their mental well being. I do truly believe it's designed to make worker drones

mariaalice · 18-04-2016 10:52am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Why are kids unhappy going to school? Why are we making them do this? Education should be a fun thing to do but I see it making a lot of kids very unhappy. It's too competitive, too restrictive, too stressful. As I say, we have successfully made education unfun. This is a very bad approach to the well being of kids particularly their mental well being. I do truly believe it's designed to make worker drones

What you are really saying is the whole of society need to change, if you are interested in this subject read: Pedagogy of the Oppresses Paulo Freire, and Deschooling Society Ivan Illich or anything by Ivan Illich, warning very lefty so might annoy some people but they are insetting.

I find the modern notion of...we must be happy and fulfilled all the time interesting.

mariaalice · 18-04-2016 10:55am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Why are kids unhappy going to school? Why are we making them do this? Education should be a fun thing to do but I see it making a lot of kids very unhappy. It's too competitive, too restrictive, too stressful. As I say, we have successfully made education unfun. This is a very bad approach to the well being of kids particularly their mental well being. I do truly believe it's designed to make worker drones

Was school ever a fun experience? and why should it be fun, now I am not saying it should be a thread mill either, how has this idea arisen in society that everything should be fun?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-04-2016 10:57am

mariaalice wrote: »

What you are really saying is the whole of society need to change, if you are interested in this subject read: Pedagogy of the Oppresses Paulo Freire, and Deschooling Society Ivan Illich or anything by Ivan Illich, warning very lefty so might annoy some people but they are insetting.

I find the modern notion of...we must be happy and fulfilled all the time interesting.

The whole of society is a genrally interresting and uplifting place to live for the most part. It doesn't need to change. It's school that's the dark dpressing bit.

Wanderer78 · 18-04-2016 10:59am

mariaalice wrote:

I find the modern notion of...we must be happy and fulfilled all the time interesting.

Thank you very much for that. I certainly will check that out. I'm knee deep in the world of American economist Michael Hudson at the moment so it 'll have to wait. We have taken a wrong turn somewhere. The rise in mental health problems is alarming. Something is going fundamental wrong somewhere. I'm determined to find the root causes. I dont want to see any child unhappy. School really should be a fun and happy place

mariaalice · 18-04-2016 11:03am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The whole of society is a genrally interresting and uplifting place to live for the most part. It doesn't need to change. It's school that's the dark dpressing bit.

My adult life is much better that it was at school and that might have something to do with the fact the teenager years coincided with secondary school, than anything to do with the school: of course schools/education could be and should be better but if you read over this thread it is bizarre what people want and expect schools to be able to do.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-04-2016 11:03am

mariaalice wrote: »

Was school ever a fun experience? and why should it be fun, now I am not saying it should be a thread mill either, how has this idea arisen in society that everything should be fun?

You're avoiding the question: if life doesn't have to be brutally dystopian and boring, why go out of our way to make school hard and boring? Why shouldn't it be fun?

Permabear · 18-04-2016 11:05am

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mariaalice · 18-04-2016 11:05am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Thank you very much for that. I certainly will check that out. I'm knee deep in the world of American economist Michael Hudson at the moment so it 'll have to wait. We have taken a wrong turn somewhere. The rise in mental health problems is alarming. Something is going fundamental wrong somewhere. I'm determined to find the root causes. I dont want to see any child unhappy. School really should be a fun and happy place

Of course schools should be happy places and for the most part are, but that is not the same as fun.

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 11:08am

any application of effort requires perseverance and concentration. Only a small percentage of humans are " happy " applying such concentration and perseverance to any task. Hence school can only be " fun" if you in effect dont challenge anyone to do anything difficult ( difficult, being measured by what they find difficult)

also children can be happy without having " fun", they can get happiness from overcoming difficulty, succeeding , or just the pleasure of a job well done,

we need to move away from this nebulous concept of " fun"

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 11:10am

The American Chamber of Commerce has also criticized the Irish education system for its over-reliance on rote learning, and lack of attention to problem-solving skills.

its true, partly because we have taken the easiest path to education

mariaalice · 18-04-2016 11:10am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You're avoiding the question: if life doesn't have to be brutally dystopian and boring, why go out of our way to make school hard and boring? Why shouldn't it be fun?

Schools should be happy places, should have an interesting purposeful environment, I liked school but found it boring.

Banjoxed · 18-04-2016 11:11am

If I was working in a job where I had to defend myself from random punching, then yes, I would consider school to have been an excellent preparation for the workplace.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-04-2016 11:13am

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course schools should be happy places and for the most part are, but that is not the same as fun.

Maybe in the earlier stages, but in secondary school, they aren't happy. They are full of over-stressed students being told what way they're allowed to dress or how long they can have their hair, that they have absolutely no say in the ruling process that governs their school lives. Oh, and all of your efforts to learn two years worth of useless information in order to pass a three-hour exam will be render your life meaningless and your dreams dead if you don't do it.

But hey - it'll be fun!

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 11:15am

mariaalice wrote: »

Schools should be happy places, should have an interesting purposeful environment, I liked school but found it boring.

good preparation for both life and the workplace then :P

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 11:17am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Maybe in the earlier stages, but in secondary school, they aren't happy. They are full of over-stressed students being told what way they're allowed to dress or how long they can have their hair, that they have absolutely no say in the ruling process that governs their school lives. Oh, and all of your efforts to learn two years worth of useless information in order to pass a three-hour exam will be render your life meaningless and your dreams dead if you don't do it.

But hey - it'll be fun!

in the main schools are not filled with over stressed kids, nor is the dress code a source of continual discussion amongst the majority of Kids. They just accept it as a " rule". There are always those that pushback against authority and they will always be there ( and thats a good thing )

as for says in governing process, again this is a structured environment , kids should only have a very limited say in what happens, just like in life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-04-2016 11:17am

BoatMad wrote: »

good preparation for both life and the workplace then :P

I like my life and job, thank you very much!

But is it a case of life is hard and boring so we should make school hard and boring, or we can't be bothered changing school, so make life hard and boring as well?

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 11:19am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I like my life and job, thank you very much!

yes but many dont , such is the nature of enforced drudgery we call "work" for a lot of people

Permabear · 18-04-2016 11:19am

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mariaalice · 18-04-2016 11:20am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Maybe in the earlier stages, but in secondary school, they aren't happy. They are full of over-stressed students being told what way they're allowed to dress or how long they can have their hair, that they have absolutely no say in the ruling process that governs their school lives. Oh, and all of your efforts to learn two years worth of useless information in order to pass a three-hour exam will be render your life meaningless and your dreams dead if you don't do it.

But hey - it'll be fun!

That true but is the stress cause by society/themselves/schools....schools in and off themselves are not responsible for what society reflects back to the students about success in life, their is a clue in the fact the children are generally more content and happy in primary school even though it is a school environment.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-04-2016 11:21am

mariaalice wrote: »

That true but is the stress cause by society/themselves/schools....schools in and off themselves are not responsible for what society reflects back to the students about success in life, their is a clue in the fact the children are generally more content in primary school even though it is a school environment.

Definitely schools and (albeit to a lesser extent) society.

Remember this?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5j6bPmapmE

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 11:25am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The evidence in Ireland is that the educational outcomes from schools that have private teachers or public teachers are very similar.

perhaps unlike the US, public teachers here are extremely well payed in comparison to elsewhere. there its little disparity in salary and many teachers in private schools are paid for by the state

Your view of public education is rather based on US TV programmes. Disruption in classrooms has many origins, boredom, socio-economic issues, drive and attention disorders

sit in on a well motivated classroom in a public school in ireland whose main catchment areas is in the more affluent areas and you will tend to see less issues of discipline ( as a generality ) and more application, primarily because the parents values of advancement through education are transferred to their children.

Sit in on a class in a dis-advantaged areas and you will have kids that are mis-treated, ill-nourished, or just ignored and in these situations education is a challenging task

in reality public or private has little to do with it per se

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2016 2:27pm

BoatMad wrote: »

in reality public or private has little to do with it per se

Here in the UK there is a major shortage of teachers, particularly maths teachers. They often work 12-15 hour days which would drain anyone's morale. The pay is decent (£30k, the average wage is about £27k) but insufficient IMO.

Here is a piece from The Economist on the subject.

BoatMad · 18-04-2016 2:37pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Here in the UK there is a major shortage of teachers, particularly maths teachers. They often work 12-15 hour days which would drain anyone's morale. The pay is decent (£30k, the average wage is about £27k) but insufficient IMO.

Here is a piece from The Economist on the subject.

yes but I was comparing Irish paid teachers, which excepting NQTs , are very well paid by European norms and work shorter hours as well

Permabear · 18-04-2016 4:39pm

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Baron Kurtz · 18-04-2016 4:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the kind words.

Think my wife might be a member here, not sure, doesn't bother me either way. She is stunning looking, if I said she was the attractive one in the class at school I should have added that she is one of those types who get more attractive as the years go by. And she is a saint., she put up with a lot of years of me going out and not getting home until the 4/6/8am times. On the other hand she never had any reason to doubt me, the whole "why have burger away when I have steak at home" thing applies...

Blergh :pac:

Does school prepare us for later life?

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