Separating Church & State , Why does it Matter ?

Bristolscale7

silverharp wrote: »

From the syllabus

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiL3tGDrprMAhVBvRoKHc6TDO0QFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcurriculumonline.ie%2Fgetmedia%2F5244872c-9437-476e-879a-eff40a41795c%2FSCSEC05_Arabic_Syllabus_English.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEVFTiYUgpVt7ZgH0OApQl43uWhcw&sig2=k0f8qGA05_BCaNauRcS0fw&bvm=bv.119745492,d.bGg

Seems better than the regular religion leaving cert which is primarily catholic dogma.

Absolam

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Seems better than the regular religion leaving cert which is primarily catholic dogma.

Interesting. I wasn't actually aware that familiarity with evidence of the search for meaning and values in the philosophical thought of ancient Greece and at key
moments in the development of philosophy was a feature of Catholic dogma. Or the recognition and identification of elements of symbolic, mythical, and metaphorical thinking in ancient and contemporary religious and secular traditions. I guess you learn something new every day, eh!

Penn

Absolam wrote: »

Interesting. I wasn't actually aware that familiarity with evidence of the search for meaning and values in the philosophical thought of ancient Greece and at key
moments in the development of philosophy was a feature of Catholic dogma. Or the recognition and identification of elements of symbolic, mythical, and metaphorical thinking in ancient and contemporary religious and secular traditions. I guess you learn something new every day, eh!

Are you saying that Chrisitanity is given equal weight to all other religions in the Leaving Cert Religious Education Syllabus?

silverharp

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Seems better than the regular religion leaving cert which is primarily catholic dogma.

its a language subject I'd imagine not many Leaving Certs around the world include bible passages from the original King James :pac: for anyone taking English

Absolam

Penn wrote: »

Are you saying that Chrisitanity is given equal weight to all other religions in the Leaving Cert Religious Education Syllabus?

Nope. I'm saying I think Bristolscale7 would have a hard time proving it's primarily Catholic dogma; all it takes is a cursory glance at the syllabus to see that it's not.

Absolam

silverharp wrote: »

its a language subject I'd imagine not many Leaving Certs around the world include bible passages from the original King James :pac: for anyone taking English

If the subject were 17th Century English, it might. At least if the King James Bible were considered to have some literary rather than simply religious value. Unlike the King James Bible the Quran, at least in theory, has had the exact same wording and structure etc since it was written down in the first place, and it is also considered to be a text of literary value in it's own right. Now maybe Peig has more literary value, but I can see how there might be a reason to include it in studies of Arabic literature. Can you not?

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

If the subject were 17th Century English, it might. At least if the King James Bible were considered to have some literary rather than simply religious value. Unlike the King James Bible the Quran, at least in theory, has had the exact same wording and structure etc since it was written down in the first place, and it is also considered to be a text of literary value in it's own right. Now maybe Peig has more literary value, but I can see how there might be a reason to include it in studies of Arabic literature. Can you not?

we are talking about a second level language exam not university type cultural studies. if you were studying modern Greek would you expect Orthodox texts to be part of the exam, I wouldn't.
The question as I see it is, did the dept of Ed. just outsource the framing of this subject and not question what came back because reasons?

Absolam

silverharp wrote: »

we are talking about a second level language exam not university type cultural studies. if you were studying modern Greek would you expect Orthodox texts to be part of the exam, I wouldn't.

What if the Orthodox texts were considered to be the pinnacle of literary achievement in modern Greek; would you exclude them simply because they're religious, despite their apparent literary value? I wouldn't.

silverharp wrote: »

The question as I see it is, did the dept of Ed. just outsource the framing of this subject and not question what came back because reasons?

And the questions as I see it is the one asked earlier; what kind of questions are they? If the questions on the text are literary in nature then I can see no good reason to object to excerpts from the Quran being included in the exam.

silverharp

Absolam wrote: »

What if the Orthodox texts were considered to be the pinnacle of literary achievement in modern Greek; would you exclude them simply because they're religious, despite their apparent literary value? I wouldn't.

And the questions as I see it is the one asked earlier; what kind of questions are they? If the questions on the text are literary in nature then I can see no good reason to object to excerpts from the Quran being included in the exam.

You would need to show me that it is reasonably common to include religious texts in foreign language exams in western secondary schools. I wouldnt have thought so.
Plus I dont think its good to have an exam that potentially favors Mulsim Arabic speakers over non Muslim Arabic speakers.

Absolam

silverharp wrote: »

You would need to show me that it is reasonably common to include religious texts in foreign language exams in western secondary schools. I wouldnt have thought so.

Why? Whether the text has literary value (particularly in Arabic) has nothing at all to do with whether or not it is reasonably common to include religious texts in foreign language exams in western secondary schools.

silverharp wrote: »

Plus I dont think its good to have an exam that potentially favors Mulsim Arabic speakers over non Muslim Arabic speakers.

We don't have any reason to think the exam does though, do we? No one has yet shown that the questions aren't entirely based on the literary content of the passages. In fact, given that Muslim students would have a theological understanding of the texts, they might be at a disadvantage in trying to discuss them from a purely literary standpoint. It very much depends on the questions, do you not think?

looksee

Hasn't it been said several times in the Islam forum that it is wrong for people who are not scholars of Islam to try and interpret or have opinions on the meaning of the Quran? So how could any student usefully answer questions, regardless of of whether they are literary or religious; any time a Muslim in the Islam forum tries to explain something in the Quran it involves lengthy passages from scholarly interpretations. And what happens to the marking scheme if a student fails to put in the (blessed be his name) bit at appropriate intervals, and a Muslim is marking the paper?

Absolam

I don't think anyone has suggested that Islamic scholars ought to be the arbiters of the Leaving Cert?