Separating Church & State , Why does it Matter ?

Walter H Price

So my question is this , why does it personally mater to you that we see further separation of Church and State in Ireland ?

For me its about my kids , i don't want my children to have to be baptised into a religion neither me or their mother have any interest in just so they can go to a local school.

I don't want them to learn more about Jesus , Mohammed , Budda or any other fictional religious character in school then they learn about Science , Technology , history etc..

I don't want them to feel pressured like i did not from my parents or family but from teachers and classmates into making communion or confirmation.

And if for any reason my Fiance ,Sister , Daughter , Cousin or friend ever need to or wish to terminate a pregnancy for any reason, i would like them to be able to do so here with dignity and support instead of having to travel to England.

Those are my reasons , what are yours ?

wokingvoter

But your going to a church to avail of the RCC sacrament of marriage.
Your going to stand up in front of all your loved ones family and friends on the biggest day of your life and solemnly promise to bring up any children you have as Roman Catholics
do you not think that's absolutely ridiculous ?
The hypocrisy is actually breathtaking

Delirium

wokingvoter wrote: »

But your going to a church to avail of the RCC sacrament of marriage.
Your going to stand up in front of all your loved ones family and friends on the biggest day of your life and solemnly promise to bring up any children you have as Roman Catholics
do you not think that's absolutely ridiculous ?
The hypocrisy is actually breathtaking

who is that directed at? the OP certainly hasn't said anything of the sort.

galljga1

wokingvoter wrote: »

But your going to a church to avail of the RCC sacrament of marriage.
Your going to stand up in front of all your loved ones family and friends on the biggest day of your life and solemnly promise to bring up any children you have as Roman Catholics
do you not think that's absolutely ridiculous ?
The hypocrisy is actually breathtaking

Another reason to add to the list.
A couple of generations later the family and peer pressure will no longer exist.
I doubt either of my two will get married in a church.

intheclouds

Op - that you are getting married in a church means you are part of the reason it perpetuates.

You will be standing up there in front of all your friends and family making a solemn oath to raise any children you have catholic.

If you feel the way you say you do then why would you get married in a church?

Walter H Price

I've addressed the wedding thing before on the other thread , i didn't want to get married in a church i wanted to go abroad , due to the size of my other half's family that wasn't really an option as to many people she wanted there wouldn't have been able to afford to go.

After that i would rather have just gotten married in the hotel were having the reception in , but she wants her grandmother to be at some part of the wedding, the only way that was feasible due to her granny's health was to get married in her parish church across the road from her granny's house , so we compromised.

This thread isn't about my wedding its about why you want to see change in the influence the Church has here and why it matters to you.

lazygal

Walter H Price wrote: »

I've addressed the wedding thing before on the other thread , i didn't want to get married in a church i wanted to go abroad , due to the size of my other half's family that wasn't really an option as to many people she wanted there wouldn't have been able to afford to go.

After that i would rather have just gotten married in the hotel were having the reception in , but she wants her grandmother to be at some part of the wedding, the only way that was feasible due to her granny's health was to get married in her parish church across the road from her granny's house , so we compromised.

This thread isn't about my wedding its about why you want to see change in the influence the Church has here and why it matters to you.

Will you baptise any children you may have?

wokingvoter

Delirium wrote: »

who is that directed at? the OP certainly hasn't said anything of the sort.

Don't be confused. Ask him what type of a wedding ceremony he's having.

wokingvoter

lazygal wrote: »

Will you baptise any children you may have?

Well, when you ask for the sacrament of marriage, which is what the OP is doing, you promise in front of everybody in the church to raise your kids as Catholics

Walter H Price

We have 1 he's not baptised , wouldn't plan on baptising any kids we have in the future , will probably go the educate together route as there is a big new ET school in the area and plenty of good community schools around.

The wedding thing is a pure compromise , if it means my OH getting to have her granny there i'm happy to go with it.

Speedwell

I'm a Yank immigrant (of Jewish extraction, yet) and my Irish-born, Irish-ancestry husband is also an atheist, and I am sick and effing tired of people assuming we are on one side or the other of the religious partisanship BS. His whole family is so over that nonsense, even the ones who are still religious.

wokingvoter

Walter H Price wrote: »

I've addressed the wedding thing before on the other thread , i didn't want to get married in a church i wanted to go abroad , due to the size of my other half's family that wasn't really an option as to many people she wanted there wouldn't have been able to afford to go.

After that i would rather have just gotten married in the hotel were having the reception in , but she wants her grandmother to be at some part of the wedding, the only way that was feasible due to her granny's health was to get married in her parish church across the road from her granny's house , so we compromised.

This thread isn't about my wedding its about why you want to see change in the influence the Church has here and why it matters to you.

And your wife's family will want the children baptised so you'll compromise on that . And communion. And confirmation
But go ahead and tell yourself your
A. Not a hypocrite
and
B. At the vanguard of the move to secularise Ireland
A little self delusion never hurt anybody

galljga1

Walter H Price wrote: »

We have 1 he's not baptised , wouldn't plan on baptising any kids we have in the future , will probably go the educate together route as there is a big new ET school in the area and plenty of good community schools around.

The wedding thing is a pure compromise , if it means my OH getting to have her granny there i'm happy to go with it.

I wonder what percentage of people getting married in church give a rats. The same applies to baptism, communion and confirmation. Technically it is hypocritical but who cares. If you were to remove all the hypocrites from the RCC, there would be very few left.

wokingvoter

Walter H Price wrote: »

We have 1 he's not baptised , wouldn't plan on baptising any kids we have in the future , will probably go the educate together route as there is a big new ET school in the area and plenty of good community schools around.

The wedding thing is a pure compromise , if it means my OH getting to have her granny there i'm happy to go with it.

Your still going to stand right up there and promise that you will baptise them
In front of everybody
Including Granny

galljga1

wokingvoter wrote: »

Your still going to stand right up there and promise that you will baptise them
In front of everybody
Including Granny

Get over it. Who cares?

intheclouds

galljga1 wrote: »

Get over it. Who cares?

Well, it is part of the reason why the RC have such an influence in this country. Because people use their services.

Walter H Price

wokingvoter wrote: »

Your still going to stand right up there and promise that you will baptise them
In front of everybody
Including Granny

I am and i wont feel a pang of hypocrisy because i know 80% if not more of the people there are not catholic in any real sense of the word , My OH family fully support the fact our son isn't baptised including her grandparents and mine everyone recognises the times have changed for the better.

I don't see myself as at the vanguard of a secular society , i do believe there's allot more to be done here and i would like to see the main political parties supporting secular policy's , that's all.

intheclouds

Walter H Price wrote: »

i do believe there's allot more to be done here and i would like to see the main political parties supporting secular policy's , that's all.

If the main political parties tried to support more secular policies the RC would wade straight in with the stats on the number of catholic marriages that were performed in the past decade, the number of baptisms etc and use those figures (along with the census figures) to argue that people WANT the churches involvement in things.

eviltwin

For me a few reasons. I had to travel to the UK to terminate a pregnancy, that should have been available to me here. I was put under a lot of pressure to have my first child adopted because I was unmarried. I am not a Catholic, my children are not Catholic, one child had to go to a catholic school because there was no alternative. One of my kids is gay and its been hard listening to Catholic rethoric on her sexuality and its caused her distress.

Those are my reasons. It's hard to fight for that when people who are anti church support it through marriage, baptism. I've read the OPs post about his wedding on another thread, I get his reasons but it just make separation of church and state more difficult

kinsy

Walter H Price wrote: »

I am and i wont feel a pang of hypocrisy because i know 80% if not more of the people there are not catholic in any real sense of the word , My OH family fully support the fact our son isn't baptised including her grandparents and mine everyone recognises the times have changed for the better.

I don't see myself as at the vanguard of a secular society , i do believe there's allot more to be done here and i would like to see the main political parties supporting secular policy's , that's all.

Do you not see though that your attitude of not minding about getting married in a Church is part of the reason why the Church has still got so much power in Ireland?
I hear so many people who damn the church and do not follow any of its teachings who then say "ah well, it's what my mammy would prefer". It's skews the statistics, same as the Census and people who say they are Catholic as they were baptised but they don't go to mass, abide by Catholic teachings etc, possibly don't even believe in God.

galljga1

intheclouds wrote: »

Well, it is part of the reason why the RC have such an influence in this country. Because people use their services.

The point of view I was coming from was against the anti-hypocrisy brigade about which I could not give a hoot. However, you do have a valid point. The more people use these services, the more intertwined the church is with the state.
Walter, you are getting married in Granny's cottage.

Walter H Price

eviltwin wrote: »

For me a few reasons. I had to travel to the UK to terminate a pregnancy, that should have been available to me here. I was put under a lot of pressure to have my first child adopted because I was unmarried. I am not a Catholic, my children are not Catholic, one child had to go to a catholic school because there was no alternative. One of my kids is gay and its been hard listening to Catholic rethoric on her sexuality and its caused her distress.

Those are my reasons. It's hard to fight for that when people who are anti church support it through marriage, baptism. I've read the OPs post about his wedding on another thread, I get his reasons but it just make separation of church and state more difficult

I totally understand this point and i really do agree with you , i was a difficult compromise to be honest, but ultimately i think i was for the right reasons.

I can definitely sympathies with the schools situation i have so may friends who are having difficulty getting kids into local schools because there not baptised its tragic , we were lucky with living in a big Dublin suburb we had access to a local educate together.

The homophobic rhetoric from the church really affected my grandparents who are in their 80's pioneers and devout Catholics ,around the referendum as one of my cousins is openly gay , ultimately the voted yes and i don't think i've ever seen anything mean more to my cousin then that. their relationship with the church has changed over the last few years between my cousin coming out and us having a baby and living together out of marriage

wokingvoter

galljga1 wrote: »

Get over it. Who cares?

This is a discussion forum?
The OP declares that he has no interest in Catholicsm or religion but....
Is delighted to use the Catholic Church to get married in and the Catholic priest to marry him and make solemn Catholic vows but according to him it's ok because it's just to please granny
It's hilarious

eviltwin

Walter H Price wrote: »

I totally understand this point and i really do agree with you , i was a difficult compromise to be honest, but ultimately i think i was for the right reasons.

I can definitely sympathies with the schools situation i have so may friends who are having difficulty getting kids into local schools because there not baptised its tragic , we were lucky with living in a big Dublin suburb we had access to a local educate together.

The homophobic rhetoric from the church really affected my grandparents who are in their 80's pioneers and devout Catholics ,around the referendum as one of my cousins is openly gay , ultimately the voted yes and i don't think i've ever seen anything mean more to my cousin then that. their relationship with the church has changed over the last few years between my cousin coming out and us having a baby and living together out of marriage

I understand. I had a civil marriage, it caused a lot of hassle and certain people refused to attend. My parents weren't there. I stuck to my guns but to be honest it really upset me. I can see why people back down.

TheChizler

kinsy wrote: »

Do you not see though that your attitude of not minding about getting married in a Church is part of the reason why the Church has still got so much power in Ireland?
I hear so many people who damn the church and do not follow any of its teachings who then say "ah well, it's what my mammy would prefer". It's skews the statistics, same as the Census and people who say they are Catholic as they were baptised but they don't go to mass, abide by Catholic teachings etc, possibly don't even believe in God.

Clearly they have given it some thought and would prefer not to, they are only doing it for practical reasons, not quite the same as those who are Catholic in name only. I'll allow it!

Walter H Price

wokingvoter wrote: »

This is a discussion forum?
The OP declares that he has no interest in Catholicsm or religion but....
Is delighted to use the Catholic Church to get married in and the Catholic priest to marry him and make solemn Catholic vows but according to him it's ok because it's just to please granny
It's hilarious

i'm really not delighted about it , like i said i wanted to go away or have it in a hotel. I do feel the reason we are choosing to get married in a church is real and not superficial, if w don't someone who has been incredibly important to my OH wont be able to go. Yeh it pisses me off the church will use our wedding as a statistic to give themselves legitimacy , but i think it would have pissed my GF off more had i put a hollow stat ahead of her and her grandmother.

While i don't support baptising kids i can totally understand and empathise with people , particularly in the country who do only because they need access to schools.

intheclouds

TheChizler wrote: »

Clearly they have given it some thought and would prefer not to, they are only doing it for practical reasons, not quite the same as those who are Catholic in name only. I'll allow it!

Im happy for anyone to do whatever they want to do, but I am also happy to call out hypocrisy when I see it.

If you are going to go along with a church wedding for the sake of "practicality" then dont be aware that your own actions actually contribute to something you are complaining about.

I was (and still am) a bit astounded that so many people still supported the RC after all the scandals came out about child abuse and how the RC covered up, moved and protected paedophiles. And allowed them to go on abusing in the next parish they were moved to etc.. Lots of people said "oh well, it wasnt all priests". Well no, of course it wasnt, but the institution supported and protected and perpetuated paedophilia so its shocking to me that anyone would support such an institution. I also sympathise with the priests who are good people, who werent involved in such terrible things, but again, by staying in the church they are supporting it as well.

The whole thing baffles me tbh.

Speedwell

I'm all for elopements to some nice location. My husband and I arranged to get married while I was on a business trip to Aberdeen. Since it would have involved a short plane flight for most of his family, and a long plane flight for all of mine, we just had a nice day to ourselves.

mickoneill31

Going by some of the responses on this thread you can see why atheists get a bad rap as smug and condescending.

Yes it's hypocritical to get married in a church but most of us have families that are actually religious and can be hurt about what we do or don't do. Standing in front of a man in a black suit and promising to do X, Y & Z to the man in the sky makes no difference to me. I'm still an atheist.

For some families it'll alienate one side or cause hurt to older people. If you want to make a stand and say tough that's your choice. If you want to go to a church and say whatever to the magical man in the sky that's also your choice.

But there's no need for the high horses.

I got married in a registry office. My sister who is getting married this year is getting married to a religious guy in a church and nobody gives a ****.

Speedwell

mickoneill31 wrote: »

But there's no need for the high horses.

No need for the atheist equivalent of "holier than thou", either.

wokingvoter

Walter H Price wrote: »

i'm really not delighted about it , like i said i wanted to go away or have it in a hotel. I do feel the reason we are choosing to get married in a church is real and not superficial, if w don't someone who has been incredibly important to my OH wont be able to go. Yeh it pisses me off the church will use our wedding as a statistic to give themselves legitimacy , but i think it would have pissed my GF off more had i put a hollow stat ahead of her and her grandmother.

While i don't support baptising kids i can totally understand and empathise with people , particularly in the country who do only because they need access to schools.

First of all the Catholic Church doesn't need your wedding to give it "legitimacy" . Secondly the RCC don't produce statistics, the Government do, Thirdly, 1000s of babies are baptised because their parents want them to be considered Catholics at least, nothing to do with getting into schools. In the whole of the county I live in, the largest inland county in Ireland not one single school operates a policy whereby you need a baptismal cert to be enrolled, but still babies continue to be baptised.
How do you explain that?
How do you explain all the children of other faiths and no faith being taught in every school in Ireland if you claim that they must be baptised?