Trying to make sense of the Five "Solas" of Salvation

alma73

@solodeogloria, do you believe God created man with free will?

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

alma73 wrote: »

@solodeogloria, do you believe God created man with free will?

I answered this above. The best I can give you is yes and no. God is absolutely sovereign in what happens in this creation. We have free will insofar as we are accountable and responsible for our actions. The Bible is clear that predestination and human responsibility exist side by side. I can't explain anything beyond what is Biblical here.

Good morning Arkady,

I've explained the context of Ephesians, Galatians and Romans on this thread. If you dispute them take me to task. I try to take as much care as possible with this because it is important not to skew the Bible. So if I'm wrong help your brother to see. Use your works for building me up instead of tearing me down (Colossians 4:6). I think you'll claim I've taken verses out of context until I hold a Catholic understanding of these verses.

John 13 indeed says that we should love one another as Christians but it doesn't say that we need to do this in order to be saved. It is referring to the Christian life after we have been saved through His death or as John refers to it throughout the Gospel the 'hour' where Jesus would be glorified. John 14:15 says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. If good works aren't involved then the faith isn't genuine. The fruits of faith are good works but they do not of themselves save.

So the question remains I'm afraid. In future can you provide chapter and verse for what you quote. This is serious and we need to talk it through properly.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His sure rescue,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

Again everything you've written contradicts faith alone = salvation, not to mention free will.

Every defence of "sola" fide posted on the thread to date reverts to a version of "well what we really mean is faith + something + something else = salvation."

Salvation by faith AFTER which things happen to saved people (things that don't themselves affect their being saved by that original faith) isn't faith + xyz = salvation. The xyz has no contribution to their having already saved. Could you quote my contradicting this, given you've apparently read everything I've written?

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

I've explained the context of Ephesians, Galatians and Romans on this thread. If you dispute them take me to task. I try to take as much care as possible with this because it is important not to skew the Bible. So if I'm wrong help your brother to see. Use your works for building me up instead of tearing me down (Colossians 4:6).

The whole problem is your lifting short quotes out of a library, making them pretexts, and trying to shoehorn them into a false hypothesis. Scripture has to be read as a whole, and scripture goes to great lengths throughout emphasise the importance of actually doing the will of God. You can selectively cut and paste scripture and interpret to say anything you choose, including there is no God.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think you'll claim I've taken verses out of context until I hold a Catholic understanding of these verses.

No, unlike yourself, I don't care what denomination you happen to be, or I what denomination I am, it's irrelevant to the subject and it's logic / non logic. I'm interested in the subject for it's own merits (or lack of in the case) and I follow the truth and logic where it leads. Try it sometime, it might clear up your thinking, which seems to be clouded and skewed by your dislike of one particular denomination. Denominations, and you and I, are actually irrelevant to the logical validity, merits and demerits of the subject.

solodeogloria wrote: »

John 13 indeed says that we should love one another as Christians but it doesn't say that we need to do this in order to be saved. It is referring to the Christian life after we have been saved through His death or as John refers to it throughout the Gospel the 'hour' where Jesus would be glorified. John 14:15 says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. If good works aren't involved then the faith isn't genuine. The fruits of faith are good works but they do not of themselves save.

solodeogloria wrote: »

So the question remains I'm afraid. In future can you provide chapter and verse for what you quote.

I could play the cut and paste tennis game all night.
Seriously, why do you not know it well enough ? Scripture is not verses and chapters to be artificially numbered and chopped up into pieces. I don't recall Christ or the apostles citing verses numbers and artificially divided chapter numbers - God gave us scripture without them. There are no chapters and verse numbers in scripture - so much for "sola" scriptura yet again. If you're going to pretend "sola" scriptura at least quote "sola" scriptura.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Salvation by faith AFTER which things happen to saved people (things that don't themselves affect their being saved by that original faith) isn't faith + xyz = salvation. The xyz has no contribution to their having already saved. Could you quote my contradicting this, given you've apparently read everything I've written?

I can't find anything in scripture that defunct the person, their free will, God, God's grace, and doing the will of God from the equation.
No where can I find anyone saved by "faith alone" in scripture, they all had to do the will of God. This conundrum leaves you painting yourself into the corner that anyone who has faith in God, has all their free will permanently removed and they are zapped into being automatons no longer responsible for any action . . . again contrary to everything we read in scripture.

alma73

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning all!

I answered this above. The best I can give you is yes and no. God is absolutely sovereign in what happens in this creation. We have free will insofar as we are accountable and responsible for our actions. The Bible is clear that predestination and human responsibility exist side by side. I can't explain anything beyond what is Biblical here.

What you say above contradicts completely Christs message. God never created anyone to be predestined to suffer. We were created in the likeness of God to be with God. We decide our eternity. The Picture you have created of God in your posts is not what Christ came to tell us. He is out Father you has prepared a room for us in heaven. You can step towards Christ or you can step away from him. But you decide if you want to follow Christ or not, You have free will to follow him and this very much involves a conscious act without which you are not saved. If you don't follow Christ in this world you can't follow him to heaven.

I don't know where this discussion can go, because we disagree on something so pivotal in Christianity, our free will to follow Christ.

Yes God knows our Choices, But they are OUR choices. We decide our destiny.

You don't have to take the Roman Catholic Teaching on this, look at the Coptic, Armenian, Orthodox Churches. Protestantism was a movement against Roman Catholicism, but it went too far by disregarding fundamental Christian Teaching.

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

What you say above contradicts completely Christs message. God never created anyone to be predestined to suffer. We were created in the likeness of God to be with God. We decide our eternity. The Picture you have created of God in your posts is not what Christ came to tell us. He is out Father you has prepared a room for us in heaven. You can step towards Christ or you can step away from him. But you decide if you want to follow Christ or not, You have free will to follow him and this very much involves a conscious act without which you are not saved. If you don't follow Christ in this world you can't follow him to heaven.

I don't know where this discussion can go, because we disagree on something so pivotal in Christianity, our free will to follow Christ.

Yes God knows our Choices, But they are OUR choices. We decide our destiny.

You don't have to take the Roman Catholic Teaching on this, look at the Coptic, Armenian, Orthodox Churches. Protestantism was a movement against Roman Catholicism, but it went too far by disregarding fundamental Christian Teaching.

Good evening alma73,

When you see and understand that my view is a Bible soaked view you'll see why I believe in God's sovereignty. It is Jesus' character in the gospels that reinforce this idea. Let me quote one passage of many that make my point that Jesus believed in predestination. I could quote others that I've mentioned in John and in Paul's writings.

John 6:41-65 ESV wrote:

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live for ever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live for ever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offence at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Nobody can come to Jesus unless it is granted to him by the Father. Jesus also mentions later on in the Gospel that the disciples did not choose Him (John 15:16). He also mentions that be brings life and judgement. He helps the blind to see but also that those who think they see might become blind (John 9:41). I think you should re-read what Jesus says particularly in these sections of John. He definitely believes in predestination as do all the apostles. Augustine in his later works believed in predestination as a Catholic. It makes sense. If God knows all things he also knows who is saved and who is not.

I can look to Augustine and say he was a Catholic who believed in predestination in his later works. So much so that he influenced John Calvin. I don't need to look to the teaching of any church. I can just look to what Jesus says in the Bible about it.

Arkady: You can't accuse me of chopping and changing passages. I've quoted them at length and I've even explained how entire Bible books work. If you think I'm wrong feel free to challenge my argument. Otherwise I'd recommend that you don't bother with passive aggressive remarks. If I am wrong please teach me. I'm striving to follow Jesus Christ and I'd rather do this positively. If you don't want to reply to me then don't, but I think it is obvious to everyone here that I've looked into the Bible and what it says on these issues at length, which is why I'm making reference to it.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His imperishable Word,
solodeogloria

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Nobody can come to Jesus unless it is granted to him by the Father.
Jesus also mentions later on in the Gospel that the disciples did not choose Him (John 15:16). He also mentions that be brings life and judgement. He helps the blind to see but also that those who think they see might become blind (John 9:41). I think you should re-read what Jesus says particularly in these sections of John. He definitely believes in predestination as do all the apostles. Augustine in his later works believed in predestination as a Catholic. It makes sense. If God knows all things he also knows who is saved and who is not.

Which contradicts sola fide again.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I can look to Augustine and say he was a Catholic who believed in predestination in his later works. So much so that he influenced John Calvin. I don't need to look to the teaching of any church. I can just look to what Jesus says in the Bible about it.

Which contradicts all your earlier references to Luther et al.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Arkady: You can't accuse me of chopping and changing passages.
I've quoted them at length and I've even explained how entire Bible books work. If you think I'm wrong feel free to challenge my argument. Otherwise I'd recommend that you don't bother with passive aggressive remarks. If I am wrong please teach me. I'm striving to follow Jesus Christ and I'd rather do this positively. If you don't want to reply to me then don't, but I think it is obvious to everyone here that I've looked into the Bible and what it says on these issues at length, which is why I'm making reference to it.

Back to straw manning again. Tell the truth, show me where I said you changed a passage. You don't have to change it to quote it out of context and use it as a pretext. And - At this stage you're just bolding random quotes in that don't support, and aren't even related to what you're saying.

And if you don't want to me to reply then don't address strawman replies towards me, or hide remarks or quotes addressed to me the in replies to other peoples posts in the hope I won't see them.

alma73

@solodeogloria

As you quoted "whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (going to someone involves an act)

I think this is where we part, because without a shared belief in our Free will there can't be a discussion.

Yes we are chosen, yes God knows what we will do, But they are our acts, we decide between good and bad. Christ said to his Apostles to GO and preach the gospel, they were given a mission.

By your logic all your posts here are meaningless because not matter what you do you can't help anyone.. Right? Peaching the Gospel is meaningless because it does not matter anymore, people are already saved. Right? Infact what is the need for a Christian to bear witness to the Gospel, its not going to save any more souls, Right? We might as well just put Christs message on billboards to make they aware they might be predestined for salvation,. and us lucky Christians who think we are saved can go to the Bahamas.

You can decide to follow Christ or walk away from him, That is your choice and it is an act that will lead to salvation or damnation.

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

Which contradicts sola fide again.

Which contradicts all your earlier references to Luther et al.

Good evening!

Forgive me but how to both points? You've not even shown a contradiction between the three solas yet. Nick explained them for you.

alma73 asked me if I believe in free will, I do in a sense insofar as humans are responsible for their actions, but I also hold to predestination as it is Biblical.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Forgive me but how to both points? You've not even shown a contradiction between the three solas yet. Nick explained them for you.

alma73 asked me if I believe in free will, I do in a sense insofar as humans are responsible for their actions, but I also hold to predestination as it is Biblical.

The logical error Nick had to revert to, before dissapearing when he was questioned further about it, was since when does the word sola not actually mean sola at all ? Over and over you claim faith alone = and then when that falls apart again and again you revert to saying well truthfully it's plus plus plus =, and thus you're lefting zig zagging between the endless contradictions over and back, back and fourth, round and round.

Logically, you can't claim that someone can only come to the father by God's will, and then claim it is actually by their faith alone ? then in the next sentence claim someone is predestined by God, and then claim in the next breath salvation is by their faith alone ? Never mind square it all with free will. The thing about Logic is you can't you can't straw man and circumvent it.

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

I can't find anything in scripture that defunct the person, their free will, God, God's grace, and doing the will of God from the equation.

I'm not asking you what you can or can't find in scripture. I'm asking you where in what I've written is there a suggestion of mine that there is faith + anything else.

You did say:

Again everything you've written contradicts faith alone = salvation, not to mention free will.

So go find what I said which contradicts salvation by faith alone. As for this newly introduced entity, freewill.

In invoking freewill: you have first define what you mean by that and show the biblical support that we have such a thing. "Free will" suggests our ability to chose for or against something from some kind of middle ground, equally balanced position. I don't find this in scripture.

Every defence of "sola" fide posted on the thread to date reverts to a version of "well what we really mean is faith + something + something else = salvation."

I'm not interested in others defences, they can defend their defences. I'm asking about my defence.

The Spirit taking up residence in a person post-their being saved, for instance, was stated by me as being a consequence of them being saved, not something which contributes to their salvation.

Not thus, faith + anything. At least, not from me. If you disagree then show I've done so rather than assert I've done so.

No where can I find anyone saved by "faith alone" in scripture, they all had to do the will of God.

Given me an example* were doing the will of God (as you appear to mean it) produced salvation for a person.




*My position, explained earlier, is that someone has indeed to fulfill God's criteria for saving them. In fulfilling that criteria they do the will of God in an oblique, unknowing sense (in that God wants to save them and so, wants them to fulfill his criteria for saving them). But they don't will their salvation and they don't contribute to it by positive act of will or work.

In a nutshell, they are saved by actions that God takes, unless they, by act of will, refuse to be saved. In other words, all will be saved by default, unless they, like those who Jesus lamented over..

"How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."

i.e.: will it not.

This conundrum leaves you painting yourself into the corner that anyone who has faith in God, has all their free will permanently removed

Not at all. Those who have faith in God are brought to the point of having no choice, except that they refuse to the end to be brought, to have faith in God. It is their acts of will which, unbeknownst to them, bring them to the point of no choice but to turn to God. It's called surrender. Surrender isn't an act of the will. It's an act arising from the will accepting defeat. Of not willing to fight anymore.

Aren't the scriptures littered with those who faced desperate circumstances and in desperation, turned to the only solution: God. Thief on the cross, anyone?

Think fish finally hooked on a line and being reeled in (fishers of men anyone??). Does the fish will being caught? Or is that solely the work of the fisherman? And if the fish shakes the hook free and remains at sea (the biblical picture of chaos, disorder and evil) what, other than it's will, achieved that result for itself?

Such is the way of salvation. God saves us by his action. We lose us by our action. Thus is the the credit solely to God for our salvation. And the credit to us for our being lost.

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

Arkady wrote: »

Logically, you can't claim that someone can only come to the father by God's will, and then claim it is actually by their faith alone ? then in the next sentence claim someone is predestined by God, and then claim in the next breath salvation is by their faith alone ? Never mind square it all with free will. The thing about Logic is you can't you can't straw man and circumvent it.

Jesus did in the Bible. God rescues people, God draws people to Himself and God produces faith. Yet we are still responsible for our actions. This is the mystery. Yet this is what the Bible clearly states so I believe it. I agree you can't square these two concepts together. Both are Biblical however and I'm happy to ask God for insight in the new creation. Just read what I've quoted from John chapter 6 along with Romans 9 - 11 and you'll see this is what Jesus and the apostles taught.

If you don't want to hear what the Bible says on this that's your choice. If you can correct me on the "context" that I'm missing (despite explaining at length the context of Romans, Ephesians and Galatians on this thread) please do.

alma73 wrote: »

@solodeogloria

As you quoted "whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (going to someone involves an act)

The ones who come to Him are the ones that the Father has given Him (6:39). Again both God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

alma73 wrote: »

I think this is where we part, because without a shared belief in our Free will there can't be a discussion.

I don't mind. If you want to hear and consider what the Bible says on this subject stick around. That's what I offer. If you want me to offer you non-Biblical wisdom I have none because I'm a fool for Christ (1 Corinthians 1:18).

alma73 wrote: »

Yes we are chosen, yes God knows what we will do, But they are our acts, we decide between good and bad. Christ said to his Apostles to GO and preach the gospel, they were given a mission.

Right so, what is your problem with my view then?

I believe both, in predestination (we are actively chosen by God) and in human responsibility (we are responsible for our actions).

alma73 wrote: »

By your logic all your posts here are meaningless because not matter what you do you can't help anyone.. Right? Peaching the Gospel is meaningless because it does not matter anymore, people are already saved. Right? Infact what is the need for a Christian to bear witness to the Gospel, its not going to save any more souls, Right? We might as well just put Christs message on billboards to make they aware they might be predestined for salvation,. and us lucky Christians who think we are saved can go to the Bahamas.

We alone cannot. It is only by God's grace. However we don't know where Christ's sheep are but we know they hear His voice. That's why we preach the gospel to others that they might hear His voice. We don't know who is elect and who is not, so we continue to share in the hope that we might find these people that God will draw to Himself. John 10 gives us that promise, His sheep hear His voice, and the evil one will not snatch one of His from His hand (John 10:27)

I've already answered the Bahamas point. But who knows if someone goes to the Bahamas with a genuine desire to bring God's word to others there I'd encourage them

alma73 wrote: »

You can decide to follow Christ or walk away from him, That is your choice and it is an act that will lead to salvation or damnation.

If you walk away from Him the reality is that God will have ordained that also to an extent. John 9 is a perfect example of Jesus saving the blind man and bringing the Pharisees into judgement.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His sovereign grace,
solodeogloria

alma73

@solodeogloria. My point is I don't believe that biblically we are pre-destined to be condemned. God Created us free.

The Picture you have created of God from your interpretation of the Bible is a God who deliberately creates a person to be destined to suffer for Eternity, and nothing that man can do makes any difference.

If you look at the patrimony of Faith shared with the Churches for the first 1500 years you will see that the Calvinist teaching is a radical break of centuries of Christ teaching that is firmly rooted in the Bible.

The Protestant Fathers could not understand the Paradox of omniscience and free will, since they disregard completely 1500 years of teaching and only focused on one aspect of the Church (its bible) they formulated their own teaching.

The apparent contradiction between God's omniscience and free will is something that has also been discussed by Catholics.

This is an fundamental point, on which the Gospel is preached.

You quoted.

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

Well we are all created in Gods image, we are all granted an opportunity to be saved and to return to the God who created us. We are all loved. If we decide to reject that love, that is our decision. God does not create us to be damned. He might know we will reject him, but that is our decision, not his.

That is what makes our free will such a powerful aspect of our humanity. That is why Christ came, the ultimate act of free will, to show Humanity Gods love.

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

@solodeogloria. My point is I don't believe that biblically we are pre-destined to be condemned. God Created us free.

Good morning,

If you have issue with my argument please open the Bible. If you don't think it is Biblical or if you dispute my argument please quote the Bible to demonstrate this. I used to reject predestination because I didn't like the idea but the problem is when you read the Bible daily and read Jesus affirming it, or Paul explicitly naming it.

Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV wrote:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved

Romans 8:28-30 ESV wrote:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

You don't disagree with me, but it seems you disagree with the Apostle Paul? Why am I the only one quoting what the Bible says in this thread? Don't we all believe it is key in our faith?

alma73 wrote: »

The Picture you have created of God from your interpretation of the Bible is a God who deliberately creates a person to be destined to suffer for Eternity, and nothing that man can do makes any difference.

How else am I to interpret what Paul has said?

alma73 wrote: »

If you look at the patrimony of Faith shared with the Churches for the first 1500 years you will see that the Calvinist teaching is a radical break of centuries of Christ teaching that is firmly rooted in the Bible.

I've quoted Paul in the first century and Jesus when He walked the earth. This is the apostolic faith. Nothing more, nothing less.

alma73 wrote: »

The Protestant Fathers could not understand the Paradox of omniscience and free will, since they disregard completely 1500 years of teaching and only focused on one aspect of the Church (its bible) they formulated their own teaching.

So the church can contradict the Bible? This is one of my issues with Catholicism. The church is not lord of the Bible despite what the Council of Trent said.

alma73 wrote: »

The apparent contradiction between God's omniscience and free will is something that has also been discussed by Catholics.

This is an fundamental point, on which the Gospel is preached.

You quoted.

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

Well we are all created in Gods image, we are all granted an opportunity to be saved and to return to the God who created us. We are all loved. If we decide to reject that love, that is our decision. God does not create us to be damned. He might know we will reject him, but that is our decision, not his.

That is what makes our free will such a powerful aspect of our humanity. That is why Christ came, the ultimate act of free will, to show Humanity Gods love.

Not to be rude, but I'm not concerned with what you say but what the Bible says on the issue. Let's open it. That's all I've done.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His imperishable timeless Word,
solodeogloria

alma73

@solodeogloria.

And my arguments are rooted in the Bible.

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

@solodeogloria.

And my arguments are rooted in the Bible.

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Good morning,

Then kindly quote the passages you refer to and we can discuss them. I take the Bible seriously, and should take it more so. We need to know what it says for ourselves.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

alma73

Hi, its Proverbs 16:10, Its a pretty common biblical quote,

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

Hi, its Proverbs 16:10, Its a pretty common biblical quote,

Good morning,

The next question is how does this point undermine any others. I do believe in human responsibility for actions, but I also believe in God's sovereignty.

My previous case stands. Was the Apostle Paul wrong? Was Jesus wrong?

Let's get to the crux of the issue instead of skirting around it. One of my proudest traits as an Irishman and as a Dubliner is directness. Let's get to the point. The other passages still stand and Proverbs 16:10 doesn't undermine them.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

alma73

Hi, we believe in the same Bible. Your interpretation that we are predestined is what I don't share. Christ is offering us salvation and we need to willingly accept his offer. We need to act, if we don't we are not saved. Salvation depends on our free will, we are not saved without Christ and we can't be saved without him, but unless we step towards Christ we can't be saved. Our acts of free will in this life are pivotal.

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

Hi, we believe in the same Bible. Your interpretation that we are predestined is what I don't share. Christ is offering us salvation and we need to willingly accept his offer. We need to act, if we don't we are not saved. Salvation depends on our free will, we are not saved without Christ and we can't be saved without him, but unless we step towards Christ we can't be saved. Our acts of free will in this life are pivotal.

Good morning,

Last post for today - the exact word predestined is used by Paul in Romans and Ephesians.

Jesus explicitly claims that the Father gives Him those who believe.

Can you please make your case from the Bible, and respond to the passages that I have quoted with an alternative explanation for them? Otherwise I'll have to conclude that there is just no argument here.

We have to get direct and to the point.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

Solo wrote:

How else am I to interpret what Paul has said?

"In love he predestined us"


The Calvinists take this to mean people are predestined to salvation. I take it to mean he predestined us to whatever is subsequently described.

The 'us' being the addressees of the epistle. That is to say, Christians.

Thus: if an addressee of Paul, a.k.a. born again, a.k.a. Christian, a.k.a saved then certain things are predestined to occur to you. Adoption as sons, etc.

It is good for a saved person to know what is to occur with them. Paul tells them. What he doesn't say is that people are predestined to be saved however.

alma73

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning,

Last post for today - the exact word predestined is used by Paul in Romans and Ephesians.

Jesus explicitly claims that the Father gives Him those who believe.

Can you please make your case from the Bible, and respond to the passages that I have quoted with an alternative explanation for them? Otherwise I'll have to conclude that there is just no argument here.

We have to get direct and to the point.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

OK. Its like a Car Maker, Take an Audi, all made the same, all made with the same intention, to perform the same way etc.. The cars are pre-designed to perform in a certain way.

God creates Man in his image, predestined to go to heaven. He also gives man free will. So while we all have the same audi to get us to heaven, some will drive it drunk, some won't change the oil. And some will follow the instructions correctly and arrive to heaven. We decide. God does not create obstacles to our salvation, we do. There is no contradiction in the bible. Man has to accept Christ as his savour to be saved, he has to believe, that is an act of free will. Without this act you can't be saved.

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

OK. Its like a Car Maker, Take an Audi, all made the same, all made with the same intention, to perform the same way etc.. The cars are pre-designed to perform in a certain way.

God creates Man in his image, predestined to go to heaven. He also gives man free will. So while we all have the same audi to get us to heaven, some will drive it drunk, some won't change the oil. And some will follow the instructions correctly and arrive to heaven. We decide. God does not create obstacles to our salvation, we do. There is no contradiction in the bible. Man has to accept Christ as his savour to be saved, he has to believe, that is an act of free will. Without this act you can't be saved.

Good morning all,

alma73:

This post doesn't address what I asked but I'll walk through it with you.

The Audi example doesn't really help us establish what the Bible says about the issue and your post is based on assertions without substantiation. I can assert anything but it doesn't help me determine if something is true or Biblical. That's why I've been working with the text.

First thing. I don't know what you mean by man being predestined to go to heaven. Do you mean that all men are predestined to go to heaven, or that those chosen by God are predestined to go to heaven?

If it is the former, then that doesn't seem to be true Biblically. By default, we are condemned already (John 3:18) and the wrath of God remains on us (John 3:36). The picture is pretty bleak, and Ephesians 2:3 is even more stark when it says that we were "children of wrath" before coming to Christ. We only become children of God by faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12).

Starting off by saying man is predestined for heaven and then saying that we can crash ourselves nullifies the word "predestined". It also nullifies God's omniscience. I used to separate the idea of foreknowledge from human action and say that humans still have full sovereignty over their actions while God foreknows what we will do. I used to think that makes sense until I read the Bible use the proactive words "predestined" and "chosen". Choosing isn't simply light foreknowledge.

I don't know why you are telling me there's no contradiction in the Bible. I'm a Bible trusting and believing Christian. There are some concepts that we cannot fully reconcile but have to hold together. For example God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

I'd recommend that you read Romans 8 - 11 in your Bible carefully and slowly and you'll soon come to see that what I am saying is actually just what the Bible is saying on this issue.

antiskeptic wrote: »

"In love he predestined us"


The Calvinists take this to mean people are predestined to salvation. I take it to mean he predestined us to whatever is subsequently described.

The 'us' being the addressees of the epistle. That is to say, Christians.

Thus: if an addressee of Paul, a.k.a. born again, a.k.a. Christian, a.k.a saved then certain things are predestined to occur to you. Adoption as sons, etc.

It is good for a saved person to know what is to occur with them. Paul tells them. What he doesn't say is that people are predestined to be saved however.

antiskeptic:
I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist by definition, but I do believe in God's sovereignty because it is Biblical.

I think it'd be tricky to make the Ephesians 1 passage say that we are entirely free willed until we reach the point whereby we come to freely believe in Jesus, precisely because if I highlight a different part to you it suggests that this choice by God was made before the earth began.

Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV wrote:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved

That's radical stuff. Before God created the world, we were chosen in Him. I used to hate this idea, but I have come to peace with it because God's purposes for us are clearly good. I realise that God is God and I am not and I need to submit to His word rather than the other way around.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

solodeogloria wrote: »

I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist by definition, but I do believe in God's sovereignty because it is Biblical.

I believe that too. God is sovereign in the sense that whatever he deems salvation (for example) to entail is what salvation shall entail. He is the Sovereign. The King.

And if he wanted to predestine folk to salvation then of course he could. But saying he is sovereign, therefore he predestined people to salvation is an unjustified leap.

I think it'd be tricky to make the Ephesians 1 passage say that we are entirely free willed until we reach the point whereby we come to freely believe in Jesus, precisely because if I highlight a different part to you it suggests that this choice by God was made before the earth began.

Leaving free will for a moment.

God predestining things that would apply to 'us' (the addressee's of the epistle) before the foundation of the world doesn't alter what I said.

'Us' at the time of the foundation of the world can be seen as a file folder with nobody yet in it, in time. God predestined, before the foundation of the world, what would occur to the contents of that file folder. If but one person was placed into that file folder during the course of time, then what had been predestined to occur to them, in time, would be applied to them. If a thousand then to that thousand. If a million, then to that million.

That God knew in advance exactly who would be placed into that file folder (i.e. who would become born again) during the course of time meant he could predestine what would happen to them subsequent to their being born again. He would be predestining things to happen to certain individuals, but only by virtue of their having first arrived in that file folder. He is not predestining them to be placed into that file folder in the first place.

In other words: what isn't indicated is that the initial change in status, from lost to found, was predestined before the foundation of the world. Further on this below.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that.."

That's radical stuff. Before God created the world, we were chosen in Him. I used to hate this idea, but I have come to peace with it because God's purposes for us are clearly good. I realise that God is God and I am not and I need to submit to His word rather than the other way around.

If only he had said "chosen us (i.e. this and that individual) to be put into him" then you would have predestined unto salvation. "Us in him" is, however, just another way of describing: the saved/Christians/those who are born again.

Consider it. You can describe yourself as a Christian. A person who is saved. A person in him. Insert "the saved" in the place of "us in him" and re-read.

God chose that something would become of Christians as a body. They would be made holy and blameless, they would be adopted as sons. It's radical stuff alright: but radical in the sense of unpicking all the wonderful things that happen to a person on becoming a Christian.

Whilst it's a blessing beyond compare to be saved (even if you weren't even aware of it until emerging in the Kingdom after death), much more is stated about what that actually entails. Paul is elaborating on just what that status entails - for those lucky enough to be able to read about it.

Remember what Paul's mission and mode is: first comes the theology, then direction given to our subsequent walk in light of that theology. This is a theology of substance: equipping us with more and more insight into our constitution as Christians, such that we might be inspired by that insight unto acting for the glory of God.

-


The place of free will in the area of our salvation is an interesting subject but not relevant to this take on predestination since predestination merely (if I might use that term) is talking of matters subsequent to our salvation and which are applied to us without our having a say in the matter. As saved people, we will be adopted as sons, we will be made holy and blameless. By sovereign act of God, without our willing these things to occur to us post-our salvation

It is this which sinks the whole loss-of-salvation notion. If made holy and blameless, then how blame ever subsequently attached to us. Impossible!


-

Interesting aside. Do you remember our conversation regarding knowledge of the Greek and your notion that reading scripture was relatively straightforward and subject to interpretive bounds? Translational issues not really a matter for concern?

Consider the following verse in light of a slight rearrangement of the words + inserting "the saved" for it's equivilent "us in him".


"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him"

"as (read: because) he even chose, before the foundation of the world, that the saved should be made holy and blameless before him"


It strikes me that Paul's intent would be that his original readers would read in 'plain English', rather than in the somewhat contorted English we read today.

What's in a verse!

solodeogloria

antiskeptic wrote: »

It is this which sinks the whole loss-of-salvation notion. If made holy and blameless, then how blame ever subsequently attached to us. Impossible!

Good morning,

This is precisely what I mean when it is difficult to reconcile God's sovereignty in predestination, and human responsibility. I'm still not able to. Paul gives up trying in Romans 11. I suspect because it is beyond us. I'll find out in the new creation. There are limits to what we can understand but if it is Biblical I must believe it. I think if God chose His people in Him in advance as Ephesians says it's very difficult to water that down to a light foreknowledge.

Romans 11:33-36 ESV wrote:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

solodeogloria wrote: »

This is precisely what I mean when it is difficult to reconcile God's sovereignty in predestination, and human responsibility.

I just have reconciled sovereignty and predestination - with a reasonably straightforward reading of what's said about predestination in Ephesians. There is no human responsibility referred to in what's being predestined so no need to reconcile that there

I'm still not able to. Paul gives up trying in Romans 11.

Paul isn't giving up reconciling these issues precisely. Lots is revealed and we can draw conclusions from that. What isn't revealed isn't and we are left wondering

I suspect because it is beyond us. I'll find out in the new creation. There are limits to what we can understand but if it is Biblical I must believe it. I think if God chose His people in Him in advance as Ephesians says it's very difficult to water that down to a light foreknowledge.

You haven't actually addressed the argument presented you. You've simply restated an assertion which is countered by the argument. You saying your view is biblical isn't get out of jail card. My position is biblical too, afterall.

This is the second time you've gone this route: simply bail out when faced with a counter to your position.


Not very Paulian that - not dealing with objections to your position!

solodeogloria

antiskeptic wrote: »

I just have reconciled sovereignty and predestination - with a reasonably straightforward reading of what's said about predestination in Ephesians. There is no human responsibility referred to in what's being predestined so no need to reconcile that there

Paul isn't giving up reconciling these issues precisely. Lots is revealed and we can draw conclusions from that. What isn't revealed isn't and we are left wondering
You haven't actually addressed the argument presented you. You've simply restated an assertion which is countered by the argument.

This is the second time you've gone this route: simply bail out when faced with a counter to your position.


Not very Paulian that - not dealing with objections to your position!

Good afternoon.

Can you perhaps more succinctly explain what your alternative interpretation is? You've not even clearly stated what your opposition to my position on the text is.

The file folder analogy doesn't seem to work:

'Us' at the time of the foundation of the world can be seen as a file folder with nobody yet in it, in time. God predestined, before the foundation of the world, what would occur to the contents of that file folder. If but one person was placed into that file folder during the course of time, then what had been predestined to occur to them, in time, would be applied to them. If a thousand then to that thousand. If a million, then to that million.

That God knew in advance exactly who would be placed into that file folder (i.e. who would become born again) during the course of time meant he could predestine what would happen to them subsequent to their being born again. He would be predestining things to happen to certain individuals, but only by virtue of their having first arrived in that file folder. He is not predestining them to be placed into that file folder in the first place.

God knows what will happen in advance, but he uses explicitly the term that he chose us. I don't think your file analogy gets us away from that in the text. Paul then goes on to explain what that entails. I don't see how either in Jesus' case in John chapter 6 or Ephesians 1 that you can come to the conclusion that God didn't choose us.

My position of light foreknowledge buckled in the face of Ephesians 1 and other such passages.

You have to nullify what Paul means by both chosen and predestined in order to say that God merely arranged an inheritance for those who believe in advance. The inheritance is described from verse 7. He speaks of these same blessings in verse 3. The object of verse 4 is us. To say that God choosing us in Him doesn't refer to us being chosen seems to push things a long way beyond the text.

Let's stick to the text. Concisely explain what your issue in respect to my position is because I'm not sure what it actually is yet. The analogies aren't helping. The reason why you think I've not addressed your point might be because I genuinely don't understand your objection.

I explained my position in respect to sola scriptura in full. It isn't my fault if you don't agree with my assumptions about language.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

solodeogloria wrote: »

Can you perhaps more succinctly explain what your alternative interpretation is?

1. Predestination (for x,y, z) is applied to Christians. Us.

2. What's predestined isn't described as salvation.

3. God predestining Christians to something doesn't mean he is predestining people to salvation. He can know who will become a Christian (by whatever the mechanism becoming one is) and predestine those who become Christians to x,y,z,

4. Free will isn't an issue (i.e. the conflict between God sovereignly predestining salvation vs. free will isn't an issue) if the predestining isn't salvation itself.

The file folder analogy doesn't seem to work: God knows what will happen in advance, but he uses explicitly the term that he chose us.

No he doesn't. He uses the term "us in him". Us-in-him is a complete term and refers to the status of a particular group. Christian, born again.

Even if Paul used the term 'us' on it's own, you would have to be very careful in deciding whether the choosing us refers to choosing us without the status Christian or with the status of Christian.

I don't think your file analogy gets us away from that in the text.

I've just used the text. You've altered it.

Paul then goes on to explain what that entails.

Indeed. And since these things will be applied to Christians (rather than people chosen to be made Christians), these things aren't salvation

I don't see how either in Jesus' case in John chapter 6 or Ephesians 1 that you can come to the conclusion that God didn't choose us.

If you've other verses that indicate predestination to salvation then by all means introduce them.

My position of light foreknowledge buckled in the face of Ephesians 1 and other such passages.

I'm not supposing light foreknowledge. God knowing exactly who would be saved (who would enter the file folder) doesn't mean that he pre-ordained they would enter the file folder.

You have to nullify what Paul means by both chosen and predestined in order to say that God arranged an inheritance for those who believe in advance.

I've dealt with us. Us-in-him as singular descriptive term. You haven't the words in the sentence which allow you to construe: God chose (before the start of time) to put us into him. That is: God predestined some to salvation.

Without the words to allow that view, the view fails.

The inheritance is described from verse 7. He speaks of these same blessings in verse 3. The object of verse 4 is us. To say that God choosing us in Him doesn't refer to us being chosen seems to push things a long way beyond the text.

The object of the verse is "us in him". Christians. That is key. Chose something to occur to "us in him" = chose something to occur to Christians.

Let's stick to the text. Concisely explain what your issue in respect to my position is because I'm not sure what it actually is yet. The analogies aren't helping. The reason why you think I've not addressed your point might be because I genuinely don't understand your objection.

I've laid it out above. The key to your position is a failure to appreciate "us-in-him" is a singular descriptive term, just another of the many terms applied to the saved: Christians, born again, new men, whatever.

It doesn't say we were chosen to be put into him. Which means it doesn't mean chosen to be put into him.

I explained my position in respect to sola scriptura in full. It isn't my fault if you don't agree with my assumptions about language.

I don't agree with your dodging the objectively real problems you face: not least, the fact that so many (presumably many smarter, more dedicated, more informed) Christians come up with entirely different views than you and have done so for centuries.

You've utterly avoided this most monumental of obstacles. Reiterating "interpretive boundaries" is an argument squashed like a bug against a windscreen in light of such an opponent. Either your failing to address this problem head on stems from stubborn adherence to a particular view. Or you really don't appreciate the extent of the problem you face here. Either way, you position is rendered very problematic.



PS. you might not realise your doing it, but it would be worth avoiding statements like "I must believe what the Bible says" when dealing with someone who is also reading the Bible. Such statements are superfluous to argument and counter-argument aimed at determining what the Bible says. There are no such get out of jail cards - just argument and counter argument.

solodeogloria

antiskeptic wrote: »

1. Predestination is applied to Christians. Us.

2. What's predestined isn't described as salvation.

3. God predestining Christians to something before the creation of the world doesn't mean predestined to salvation

4. Free will isn't an issue (i.e. the conflict between God sovereignly predestining salvation vs. free will isn't an issue) if the predestining isn't salvation itself.

1. Agreed.

2. I see no good reason to detach these things. If God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that means that we were chosen to be in Jesus before we even existed. Part of being in Christ is that we are His people His church as Ephesians goes on to explain throughout chapters 2 to 4.

3. I see no reason as to why "us" is an abstraction from the real group of people in question. The church are real tangible people brought together in Christ. God's plan for the fullness of time is to unite all things in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:10). There is no reason to believe from this chapter that God took a passive role in these things.

4. Other posters involved free will into the issue. I think in your understanding where God is simply predestining an abstract non-tangible group to be in Christ then it is the free will of the individual and the pleading of the evangelist that bring people to salvation rather than God. My view is that God participates in election as Paul describes in Romans 9, and that there is a human responsibility to respond to the Gospel in Romans 10, and in Romans 11 he accepts by the end of this that it is a mystery. The reason he starts going into this is because of the "What about the Jews?" question that leads on from the end of Romans chapter 8.

antiskeptic wrote: »

No he doesn't. He uses the term "us in him". Us-in-him is a complete term and refers to the status of a particular group. Christian, born again.

I disagree. It refers to those in the group. If Paul meant it as an abstraction he would have stated so. Choosing is an active term, and predestining us to adoption. All of these concepts are coupled up with salvation in Romans also. Even in John you get hints of adoption being by virtue of salvation (John 1:12). If we are in Christ, in these things and God has chosen us to them then it must refer to our salvation.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I've just used the text. You've altered it.

I've quoted from the English Standard Version. Forgive me, but I think accusing me of altering the text is extremely unfair.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Indeed. And since these things will be applied to Christians (rather than people chosen to be made Christians), these things aren't salvation

I don't think verse 4 is referring to the things. Those are described at length in verse 3 and from verse 7 onwards. The object of verse 4 is the people who are chosen.

antiskeptic wrote: »

If you've other verses that indicate predestination to salvation then by all means introduce them.

I've explained in full above. I think it's worth explaining why you believe the text is referring to an abstract group rather than a tangible one.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm not supposing light foreknowledge. God knowing exactly who would be saved (who would enter the file folder) doesn't mean that he pre-ordained they would enter the file folder.

This is why we're discussing the words chosen and predestined. I think it is light foreknowledge to presume that God was not active in our salvation. It is passive on God's part. Except for Jesus it wasn't passive. The Father brings Him those who believe in John chapter 6.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I've dealt with us. Us-in-him as singular descriptive term. You haven't the words in the sentence which allow you to construe: God chose (before the start of time) to put us into him. That is: God predestined some to salvation.

That's the point. We do have the words. That's why I'm pointing this out. What's beyond the text is the concept that Paul is referring to an abstract group of people and that being "in Christ" doesn't mean that we were actually chosen to be in Him.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Without the words to allow that view, the view fails.

My point is that the words very clearly allow me to hold that position as I've explained above.

antiskeptic wrote: »

The object of the verse is "us in him". Christians. That is key. Chose something to occur to "us in him" = chose something to occur to Christians.

Indeed, I agree the object is the people. It is the Christians who are chosen to be in Christ. The blessing is dealt with in the surrounding verses and explained. But the focus of verse four is "us" in Christ. This makes sense of the rest of Ephesians. It also makes sense of why Paul says that this was God's plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in Christ. God is proactive in this work. Not passive.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I've laid it out above. The key to your position is a failure to appreciate "us-in-him" is a singular descriptive term, just another of the many terms applied to the saved: Christians, born again, new men, whatever.

I agree that it refers to the saved, we're not in disagreement here. It refers to the Christians who were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world. My point is that God chose Christians to be in Him from the foundation of the world.

antiskeptic wrote: »

It doesn't say we were chosen to be put into him. Which means it doesn't mean chosen to be put into him.

If it doesn't mean that those who believe in Jesus were chosen from the foundation from the world what does it mean? Why does Paul bother stating it if it is simply an abstract group and if it doesn't apply to the audience?

antiskeptic wrote: »

I don't agree with your dodging the objectively real problems you face: not least, the fact that so many Christians come up with different views than you. This renders your defence unsound.

This comment is unnecessary antiskeptic. Your position wasn't clear, and I won't be accepting accusations from you. If you don't want to respond to my posts in a gracious spirit, please don't. I want to improve my understanding, I just don't have a foggies as to how your position holds logically together. If you have issues with my position either in respect to this or in respect to my sola scriptura you're welcome to present them, but please leave the ad-hominems out.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

alma73

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning all,

alma73:

This post doesn't address what I asked but I'll walk through it with you.

The Audi example doesn't really help us establish what the Bible says about the issue and your post is based on assertions without substantiation. I can assert anything but it doesn't help me determine if something is true or Biblical. That's why I've been working with the text.

First thing. I don't know what you mean by man being predestined to go to heaven. Do you mean that all men are predestined to go to heaven, or that those chosen by God are predestined to go to heaven?

If it is the former, then that doesn't seem to be true Biblically. By default, we are condemned already (John 3:18) and the wrath of God remains on us (John 3:36). The picture is pretty bleak, and Ephesians 2:3 is even more stark when it says that we were "children of wrath" before coming to Christ. We only become children of God by faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12).

Starting off by saying man is predestined for heaven and then saying that we can crash ourselves nullifies the word "predestined". It also nullifies God's omniscience. I used to separate the idea of foreknowledge from human action and say that humans still have full sovereignty over their actions while God foreknows what we will do. I used to think that makes sense until I read the Bible use the proactive words "predestined" and "chosen". Choosing isn't simply light foreknowledge.

I don't know why you are telling me there's no contradiction in the Bible. I'm a Bible trusting and believing Christian. There are some concepts that we cannot fully reconcile but have to hold together. For example God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

I'd recommend that you read Romans 8 - 11 in your Bible carefully and slowly and you'll soon come to see that what I am saying is actually just what the Bible is saying on this issue.



antiskeptic:
I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist by definition, but I do believe in God's sovereignty because it is Biblical.

I think it'd be tricky to make the Ephesians 1 passage say that we are entirely free willed until we reach the point whereby we come to freely believe in Jesus, precisely because if I highlight a different part to you it suggests that this choice by God was made before the earth began.



That's radical stuff. Before God created the world, we were chosen in Him. I used to hate this idea, but I have come to peace with it because God's purposes for us are clearly good. I realise that God is God and I am not and I need to submit to His word rather than the other way around.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

We are all Children of God, a God know knows us in the womb. We are all made in His image.

Your interpretation that in the Bible it suggests that God created some people to be destined for damnation is not Christian teaching.

John Calvin modified his teachings a number of times over his life. So you take the view of one Man you disregards 1500 years of universal Christian teaching over thousand of Christian scholars?

You are created to love God in eternity, but that is a decision that you need to take, you are not a robot of a deus ex machina pre-programmed for heaven or hell. The Christian God is a God of love. Christ came to teach a message to people who opened their hearts to hear it.

Also, you base all your faith is a book that they Catholic Church wrote (of course inspired by God) but written by the Church, Why would you disregard its teachings? Did those who wrote the bible also write that we are to believe ONLY what is written in the bible? Doesn't the Gospels say that there was much more said by Christ that wasn't written.

So to take one part of the Church 1500 years after Christ and to formulate a different interpretation without the Church is an error.

Nobody is excluded from Heaven, we walk away from Christs Mercy, we reject him, he does not reject us. We condemn ourselves from his love. That is why our actions, our works are so important. As Christians we see the value of Christ sacrifice and we should walk towards the salvation he paid for. If we are not willing to follow the Gospel, we can't expect to be with Christ in Eternity.