alma73 wrote: » @solodeogloria, do you believe God created man with free will?
Arkady wrote: » Again everything you've written contradicts faith alone = salvation, not to mention free will. Every defence of "sola" fide posted on the thread to date reverts to a version of "well what we really mean is faith + something + something else = salvation." Salvation by faith AFTER which things happen to saved people (things that don't themselves affect their being saved by that original faith) isn't faith + xyz = salvation. The xyz has no contribution to their having already saved. Could you quote my contradicting this, given you've apparently read everything I've written?
solodeogloria wrote: » I've explained the context of Ephesians, Galatians and Romans on this thread. If you dispute them take me to task. I try to take as much care as possible with this because it is important not to skew the Bible. So if I'm wrong help your brother to see. Use your works for building me up instead of tearing me down (Colossians 4:6).
solodeogloria wrote: » I think you'll claim I've taken verses out of context until I hold a Catholic understanding of these verses.
solodeogloria wrote: » John 13 indeed says that we should love one another as Christians but it doesn't say that we need to do this in order to be saved. It is referring to the Christian life after we have been saved through His death or as John refers to it throughout the Gospel the 'hour' where Jesus would be glorified. John 14:15 says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. If good works aren't involved then the faith isn't genuine. The fruits of faith are good works but they do not of themselves save.
solodeogloria wrote: » So the question remains I'm afraid. In future can you provide chapter and verse for what you quote.
antiskeptic wrote: » Salvation by faith AFTER which things happen to saved people (things that don't themselves affect their being saved by that original faith) isn't faith + xyz = salvation. The xyz has no contribution to their having already saved. Could you quote my contradicting this, given you've apparently read everything I've written?
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning all! I answered this above. The best I can give you is yes and no. God is absolutely sovereign in what happens in this creation. We have free will insofar as we are accountable and responsible for our actions. The Bible is clear that predestination and human responsibility exist side by side. I can't explain anything beyond what is Biblical here.
alma73 wrote: » What you say above contradicts completely Christs message. God never created anyone to be predestined to suffer. We were created in the likeness of God to be with God. We decide our eternity. The Picture you have created of God in your posts is not what Christ came to tell us. He is out Father you has prepared a room for us in heaven. You can step towards Christ or you can step away from him. But you decide if you want to follow Christ or not, You have free will to follow him and this very much involves a conscious act without which you are not saved. If you don't follow Christ in this world you can't follow him to heaven. I don't know where this discussion can go, because we disagree on something so pivotal in Christianity, our free will to follow Christ. Yes God knows our Choices, But they are OUR choices. We decide our destiny. You don't have to take the Roman Catholic Teaching on this, look at the Coptic, Armenian, Orthodox Churches. Protestantism was a movement against Roman Catholicism, but it went too far by disregarding fundamental Christian Teaching.
John 6:41-65 ESV wrote: Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live for ever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live for ever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offence at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
solodeogloria wrote: » Nobody can come to Jesus unless it is granted to him by the Father. Jesus also mentions later on in the Gospel that the disciples did not choose Him (John 15:16). He also mentions that be brings life and judgement. He helps the blind to see but also that those who think they see might become blind (John 9:41). I think you should re-read what Jesus says particularly in these sections of John. He definitely believes in predestination as do all the apostles. Augustine in his later works believed in predestination as a Catholic. It makes sense. If God knows all things he also knows who is saved and who is not.
solodeogloria wrote: » I can look to Augustine and say he was a Catholic who believed in predestination in his later works. So much so that he influenced John Calvin. I don't need to look to the teaching of any church. I can just look to what Jesus says in the Bible about it.
solodeogloria wrote: » Arkady: You can't accuse me of chopping and changing passages. I've quoted them at length and I've even explained how entire Bible books work. If you think I'm wrong feel free to challenge my argument. Otherwise I'd recommend that you don't bother with passive aggressive remarks. If I am wrong please teach me. I'm striving to follow Jesus Christ and I'd rather do this positively. If you don't want to reply to me then don't, but I think it is obvious to everyone here that I've looked into the Bible and what it says on these issues at length, which is why I'm making reference to it.
Arkady wrote: » Which contradicts sola fide again. Which contradicts all your earlier references to Luther et al.
solodeogloria wrote: » Forgive me but how to both points? You've not even shown a contradiction between the three solas yet. Nick explained them for you. alma73 asked me if I believe in free will, I do in a sense insofar as humans are responsible for their actions, but I also hold to predestination as it is Biblical.
Arkady wrote: » I can't find anything in scripture that defunct the person, their free will, God, God's grace, and doing the will of God from the equation.
Again everything you've written contradicts faith alone = salvation, not to mention free will.
Every defence of "sola" fide posted on the thread to date reverts to a version of "well what we really mean is faith + something + something else = salvation."
No where can I find anyone saved by "faith alone" in scripture, they all had to do the will of God.
This conundrum leaves you painting yourself into the corner that anyone who has faith in God, has all their free will permanently removed
Arkady wrote: » Logically, you can't claim that someone can only come to the father by God's will, and then claim it is actually by their faith alone ? then in the next sentence claim someone is predestined by God, and then claim in the next breath salvation is by their faith alone ? Never mind square it all with free will. The thing about Logic is you can't you can't straw man and circumvent it.
alma73 wrote: » @solodeogloria As you quoted "whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (going to someone involves an act)
alma73 wrote: » I think this is where we part, because without a shared belief in our Free will there can't be a discussion.
alma73 wrote: » Yes we are chosen, yes God knows what we will do, But they are our acts, we decide between good and bad. Christ said to his Apostles to GO and preach the gospel, they were given a mission.
alma73 wrote: » By your logic all your posts here are meaningless because not matter what you do you can't help anyone.. Right? Peaching the Gospel is meaningless because it does not matter anymore, people are already saved. Right? Infact what is the need for a Christian to bear witness to the Gospel, its not going to save any more souls, Right? We might as well just put Christs message on billboards to make they aware they might be predestined for salvation,. and us lucky Christians who think we are saved can go to the Bahamas.
alma73 wrote: » You can decide to follow Christ or walk away from him, That is your choice and it is an act that will lead to salvation or damnation.
alma73 wrote: » @solodeogloria. My point is I don't believe that biblically we are pre-destined to be condemned. God Created us free.
Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV wrote: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved
Romans 8:28-30 ESV wrote: And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
alma73 wrote: » The Picture you have created of God from your interpretation of the Bible is a God who deliberately creates a person to be destined to suffer for Eternity, and nothing that man can do makes any difference.
alma73 wrote: » If you look at the patrimony of Faith shared with the Churches for the first 1500 years you will see that the Calvinist teaching is a radical break of centuries of Christ teaching that is firmly rooted in the Bible.
alma73 wrote: » The Protestant Fathers could not understand the Paradox of omniscience and free will, since they disregard completely 1500 years of teaching and only focused on one aspect of the Church (its bible) they formulated their own teaching.
alma73 wrote: » The apparent contradiction between God's omniscience and free will is something that has also been discussed by Catholics. This is an fundamental point, on which the Gospel is preached. You quoted. "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" Well we are all created in Gods image, we are all granted an opportunity to be saved and to return to the God who created us. We are all loved. If we decide to reject that love, that is our decision. God does not create us to be damned. He might know we will reject him, but that is our decision, not his. That is what makes our free will such a powerful aspect of our humanity. That is why Christ came, the ultimate act of free will, to show Humanity Gods love.
alma73 wrote: » @solodeogloria. And my arguments are rooted in the Bible. The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
alma73 wrote: » Hi, its Proverbs 16:10, Its a pretty common biblical quote,
alma73 wrote: » Hi, we believe in the same Bible. Your interpretation that we are predestined is what I don't share. Christ is offering us salvation and we need to willingly accept his offer. We need to act, if we don't we are not saved. Salvation depends on our free will, we are not saved without Christ and we can't be saved without him, but unless we step towards Christ we can't be saved. Our acts of free will in this life are pivotal.
Solo wrote: How else am I to interpret what Paul has said?
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning, Last post for today - the exact word predestined is used by Paul in Romans and Ephesians. Jesus explicitly claims that the Father gives Him those who believe. Can you please make your case from the Bible, and respond to the passages that I have quoted with an alternative explanation for them? Otherwise I'll have to conclude that there is just no argument here. We have to get direct and to the point. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
alma73 wrote: » OK. Its like a Car Maker, Take an Audi, all made the same, all made with the same intention, to perform the same way etc.. The cars are pre-designed to perform in a certain way. God creates Man in his image, predestined to go to heaven. He also gives man free will. So while we all have the same audi to get us to heaven, some will drive it drunk, some won't change the oil. And some will follow the instructions correctly and arrive to heaven. We decide. God does not create obstacles to our salvation, we do. There is no contradiction in the bible. Man has to accept Christ as his savour to be saved, he has to believe, that is an act of free will. Without this act you can't be saved.
antiskeptic wrote: » "In love he predestined us" The Calvinists take this to mean people are predestined to salvation. I take it to mean he predestined us to whatever is subsequently described. The 'us' being the addressees of the epistle. That is to say, Christians. Thus: if an addressee of Paul, a.k.a. born again, a.k.a. Christian, a.k.a saved then certain things are predestined to occur to you. Adoption as sons, etc. It is good for a saved person to know what is to occur with them. Paul tells them. What he doesn't say is that people are predestined to be saved however.
solodeogloria wrote: » I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist by definition, but I do believe in God's sovereignty because it is Biblical.
I think it'd be tricky to make the Ephesians 1 passage say that we are entirely free willed until we reach the point whereby we come to freely believe in Jesus, precisely because if I highlight a different part to you it suggests that this choice by God was made before the earth began.
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that.." That's radical stuff. Before God created the world, we were chosen in Him. I used to hate this idea, but I have come to peace with it because God's purposes for us are clearly good. I realise that God is God and I am not and I need to submit to His word rather than the other way around.
antiskeptic wrote: » It is this which sinks the whole loss-of-salvation notion. If made holy and blameless, then how blame ever subsequently attached to us. Impossible!
Romans 11:33-36 ESV wrote: Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
solodeogloria wrote: » This is precisely what I mean when it is difficult to reconcile God's sovereignty in predestination, and human responsibility.
I'm still not able to. Paul gives up trying in Romans 11.
I suspect because it is beyond us. I'll find out in the new creation. There are limits to what we can understand but if it is Biblical I must believe it. I think if God chose His people in Him in advance as Ephesians says it's very difficult to water that down to a light foreknowledge.
antiskeptic wrote: » I just have reconciled sovereignty and predestination - with a reasonably straightforward reading of what's said about predestination in Ephesians. There is no human responsibility referred to in what's being predestined so no need to reconcile that there Paul isn't giving up reconciling these issues precisely. Lots is revealed and we can draw conclusions from that. What isn't revealed isn't and we are left wondering You haven't actually addressed the argument presented you. You've simply restated an assertion which is countered by the argument. This is the second time you've gone this route: simply bail out when faced with a counter to your position. Not very Paulian that - not dealing with objections to your position!
'Us' at the time of the foundation of the world can be seen as a file folder with nobody yet in it, in time. God predestined, before the foundation of the world, what would occur to the contents of that file folder. If but one person was placed into that file folder during the course of time, then what had been predestined to occur to them, in time, would be applied to them. If a thousand then to that thousand. If a million, then to that million. That God knew in advance exactly who would be placed into that file folder (i.e. who would become born again) during the course of time meant he could predestine what would happen to them subsequent to their being born again. He would be predestining things to happen to certain individuals, but only by virtue of their having first arrived in that file folder. He is not predestining them to be placed into that file folder in the first place.
solodeogloria wrote: » Can you perhaps more succinctly explain what your alternative interpretation is?
The file folder analogy doesn't seem to work: God knows what will happen in advance, but he uses explicitly the term that he chose us.
I don't think your file analogy gets us away from that in the text.
Paul then goes on to explain what that entails.
I don't see how either in Jesus' case in John chapter 6 or Ephesians 1 that you can come to the conclusion that God didn't choose us.
My position of light foreknowledge buckled in the face of Ephesians 1 and other such passages.
You have to nullify what Paul means by both chosen and predestined in order to say that God arranged an inheritance for those who believe in advance.
The inheritance is described from verse 7. He speaks of these same blessings in verse 3. The object of verse 4 is us. To say that God choosing us in Him doesn't refer to us being chosen seems to push things a long way beyond the text.
Let's stick to the text. Concisely explain what your issue in respect to my position is because I'm not sure what it actually is yet. The analogies aren't helping. The reason why you think I've not addressed your point might be because I genuinely don't understand your objection.
I explained my position in respect to sola scriptura in full. It isn't my fault if you don't agree with my assumptions about language.
antiskeptic wrote: » 1. Predestination is applied to Christians. Us. 2. What's predestined isn't described as salvation. 3. God predestining Christians to something before the creation of the world doesn't mean predestined to salvation 4. Free will isn't an issue (i.e. the conflict between God sovereignly predestining salvation vs. free will isn't an issue) if the predestining isn't salvation itself.
antiskeptic wrote: » No he doesn't. He uses the term "us in him". Us-in-him is a complete term and refers to the status of a particular group. Christian, born again.
antiskeptic wrote: » I've just used the text. You've altered it.
antiskeptic wrote: » Indeed. And since these things will be applied to Christians (rather than people chosen to be made Christians), these things aren't salvation
antiskeptic wrote: » If you've other verses that indicate predestination to salvation then by all means introduce them.
antiskeptic wrote: » I'm not supposing light foreknowledge. God knowing exactly who would be saved (who would enter the file folder) doesn't mean that he pre-ordained they would enter the file folder.
antiskeptic wrote: » I've dealt with us. Us-in-him as singular descriptive term. You haven't the words in the sentence which allow you to construe: God chose (before the start of time) to put us into him. That is: God predestined some to salvation.
antiskeptic wrote: » Without the words to allow that view, the view fails.
antiskeptic wrote: » The object of the verse is "us in him". Christians. That is key. Chose something to occur to "us in him" = chose something to occur to Christians.
antiskeptic wrote: » I've laid it out above. The key to your position is a failure to appreciate "us-in-him" is a singular descriptive term, just another of the many terms applied to the saved: Christians, born again, new men, whatever.
antiskeptic wrote: » It doesn't say we were chosen to be put into him. Which means it doesn't mean chosen to be put into him.
antiskeptic wrote: » I don't agree with your dodging the objectively real problems you face: not least, the fact that so many Christians come up with different views than you. This renders your defence unsound.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning all, alma73: This post doesn't address what I asked but I'll walk through it with you. The Audi example doesn't really help us establish what the Bible says about the issue and your post is based on assertions without substantiation. I can assert anything but it doesn't help me determine if something is true or Biblical. That's why I've been working with the text. First thing. I don't know what you mean by man being predestined to go to heaven. Do you mean that all men are predestined to go to heaven, or that those chosen by God are predestined to go to heaven? If it is the former, then that doesn't seem to be true Biblically. By default, we are condemned already (John 3:18) and the wrath of God remains on us (John 3:36). The picture is pretty bleak, and Ephesians 2:3 is even more stark when it says that we were "children of wrath" before coming to Christ. We only become children of God by faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12). Starting off by saying man is predestined for heaven and then saying that we can crash ourselves nullifies the word "predestined". It also nullifies God's omniscience. I used to separate the idea of foreknowledge from human action and say that humans still have full sovereignty over their actions while God foreknows what we will do. I used to think that makes sense until I read the Bible use the proactive words "predestined" and "chosen". Choosing isn't simply light foreknowledge. I don't know why you are telling me there's no contradiction in the Bible. I'm a Bible trusting and believing Christian. There are some concepts that we cannot fully reconcile but have to hold together. For example God's sovereignty and human responsibility. I'd recommend that you read Romans 8 - 11 in your Bible carefully and slowly and you'll soon come to see that what I am saying is actually just what the Bible is saying on this issue. antiskeptic: I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist by definition, but I do believe in God's sovereignty because it is Biblical. I think it'd be tricky to make the Ephesians 1 passage say that we are entirely free willed until we reach the point whereby we come to freely believe in Jesus, precisely because if I highlight a different part to you it suggests that this choice by God was made before the earth began. That's radical stuff. Before God created the world, we were chosen in Him. I used to hate this idea, but I have come to peace with it because God's purposes for us are clearly good. I realise that God is God and I am not and I need to submit to His word rather than the other way around. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
