Trying to make sense of the Five "Solas" of Salvation

alma73

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning all!



This is the question:


It isn't a straw man as you have argued that works contribute to our salvation. I understand that you mean this partially but this still weakens the cross and it's sufficiency for us. I'm arguing that our works contribute to our sanctification which is different.

The only invention is that grace is achieved by participating in the sacraments. Luther simply taught the Apostolic Gospel. It was the Papacy who argued for grace to be attained by works by our participation and the church being Lord over the Bible. Please show me how grace attained through participation in the sacraments is Biblical.

I make no apologies for being Reformed.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus,
solodeogloria

Where does Christ say that not doing his works will save us? Our works not only contribute to our sanctification, without doing the work that Christ wills us to do we can't be saved.

We all believe we can't be saved without Faith in Christ. However having that faith that Christ died for us does not save us alone. The Devil believes Christ died for our sins, that does not make him saved.

solodeogloria

alma73 wrote: »

Where does Christ say that not doing his works will save us? Our works not only contribute to our sanctification, without doing the work that Christ wills us to do we can't be saved.

We all believe we can't be saved without Faith in Christ. However having that faith that Christ died for us does not save us alone. The Devil believes Christ died for our sins, that does not make him saved.

Good evening all!

I would like you to answer the question I asked. The New Testament is clear that we are saved by grace and not by works and I've quoted lots from the Bible and I have answered every question you have asked.

I would now appreciate if someone could just please answer the question. It's not fair that I answered all your questions and you've ignored mine.

Much thanks in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

You've tried the same strawman yet again. It's not works and never has been and no denomination claims it is, nor have I, so it's pointless to keep pretending and misrepresenting the position in the style of some second rate cheesy american televangelist. It's not going to fool anyone with even a passing understanding of other denominations. It's faith and works among many other things including the Trinity and God's grace. Again I asked you before : Find a mainstream denomination that claims its works alone, and post proof that they do.

Please just answer my question. You don't believe it's works alone but you do believe it is Jesus + works. I get that. Please answer my question because it isn't a straw man.

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Please just answer my question. You don't believe it's works alone but you do believe it is Jesus + works. I get that. Please answer my question because it isn't a straw man.

No I don't. You don't even know what I believe do you ? And how could you, because I'm not the one making the claims . . the five solas are the topic. So your repeated straw man questions pretending something I don't believe, and what no mainstream Christian denomination believes, are a tired old dishonest attempt to drag the thread away from examination of the massive logical holes in the five solas. But the thing is you're too late, they've been examined here and have failed. I started the thread on the off chance there might have been some logic hidden in there somewhere, but there's nothing, I mean really nothing, that's what's most surprising, not even a sliver after five pages, just desperate attempts at diversions. It's run it's course, and I just post because I want to see you straw man yourself to pieces now.

Tell you what, I'll answer it when you tell me when you stopped beating your wife ? Same style question.

Oh and you demand your straw man questions are answered, without ever answering what I've repeatedly asked you for since the beginning of the thread. Find any mainstream denomination that claims salvation is by works (as you claim others do), and post proof that they claim this. You won't because you can't.

Arkady

@ antiskeptic, can you recommend better forums for discussing this, something with a bit of substance that doesn't try to insult people's intelligence with cut and paste from chick pamphlets / american televangelism / paisleyism ?

alma73

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening all!

I would like you to answer the question I asked. The New Testament is clear that we are saved by grace and not by works and I've quoted lots from the Bible and I have answered every question you have asked.

I would now appreciate if someone could just please answer the question. It's not fair that I answered all your questions and you've ignored mine.

Much thanks in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Faith involves an ascent to Gods truth, obedience to God,

it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6).

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12)

Keeping the faith is a work in progress, because you can loose it. Grace and works or working to keep the faith are inseparable and very much biblical (not just a Catholic tradition). Certainly if Christ had not died everything would be in vain, without him there is no salvation no matter how much we work. But man was created free, and with our Free will we elect Christ. This is an act, with out will we elect Christ, we believe in him.

You can't separate faith and action. Our works (and by work that could simply be praying or living a life like Christ) give testimony to our Faith and keep us close to Christ.

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

@ antiskeptic, can you recommend better forums for discussing this, something with a bit of substance that doesn't try to insult people's intelligence with cut and paste from chick pamphlets / american televangelism / paisleyism ?

CARM.org?

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php

There'll be mud slinging there too - indeed, I find Christian forums involve more vitriol that even the motorcycling forum I once frequented with my somewhat post-born again zealous evangelizing.

But there's folk who know their stuff and you can engage in as much detail as you like. You'd want to know your Bible though as it'll get pretty much verse for verse, exegisis vs eisegisis, "let's look at the Greek to understand the precise nuances". You'll end up disappearing up your back side.

Try to pick out discussions which (as I tended to do) which revolve around plain English rather than stacks of scripture supposed to prove a point .. and build on those with as many agreed principles (e.g. Love a prime motivator, Justice a prime motivator, Wrath as prime motivator) as possible, so to micro-progress with others who also wanted to progress.

Avoid Calvinist vs. Arminian discussions - they were just killing fields for the human spirit

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

Find any mainstream denomination that claims salvation is by works (as you claim others do), and post proof that they claim this. You won't because you can't.

What's in a word?

It strikes me that any denomination which includes our work as a component in our salvation is distinctly different than a denomination which says by faith alone. So much so that the former can be be said to be a 'salvation by works' denomination. Let me explain.

Salvation by faith supposes the contribution to a persons salvation to stem from God alone. The person makes no positive contribution, even the faith is supplied by God. All the glory goes to God, naturally.

Salvation by faith and works supposes God contributing a portion (opening the path to heaven for the person to work their way along, encouraging the person to follow that path, giving refreshment along the way). Much like a marathon: everything bar the actual work is laid on for the runner.

But you don't give credit to the marathon organizers for holding the marathon, or providing refreshment, etc. These are incidental to the runners efforts. It's to the runner the glory goes.

Indeed, any expression of faith exhibited by the person, that isn't powered by God is itself a work: a work of the will in getting down to prayer so as to tap into the faith that God will provide, the effort in believing in God when the temptation is, in times of trial, towards disbelief.

The marathon man would doubtlessly be thankful to the organizers for rendering his glory possible in provision of the track, refreshments and status that comes on winning. But the glory is his, and his alone. It was his work (and faith-work) which kept him in the race and got him over the line.

At least, that's my view of it.

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

You've tried the same strawman yet again. It's not works and never has been and no denomination claims it is, nor have I, so it's pointless to keep pretending and misrepresenting the position in the style of some second rate cheesy american televangelist. It's not going to fool anyone with even a passing understanding of other denominations. It's faith and works among many other things including the Trinity and God's grace. Again I asked you before : Find a mainstream denomination that claims its works alone, and post proof that they do.

Good morning.

Your position seems to be that works contribute to salvation from this post. If this is true my question is still applicable. If not please clarify. I've never said you believe it is works alone but from this post it's clear you believe works contribute to salvation. In which case I'd like for you to answer my question please.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

alma73 wrote: »

Faith involves an ascent to Gods truth, obedience to God,

it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6).

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12)

Keeping the faith is a work in progress, because you can loose it. Grace and works or working to keep the faith are inseparable and very much biblical (not just a Catholic tradition). Certainly if Christ had not died everything would be in vain, without him there is no salvation no matter how much we work. But man was created free, and with our Free will we elect Christ. This is an act, with out will we elect Christ, we believe in him.

You can't separate faith and action. Our works (and by work that could simply be praying or living a life like Christ) give testimony to our Faith and keep us close to Christ.

On Galatians - context is king. I've quoted extensively from it on this thread. Paul says that justification by works nullifies the cross in Galatians 2:21. In fact objection to works based salvation is the entire thrust of the letter. In chapter 5 where you quoted from Paul is discussing how we should use the freedom we already have through Jesus. Not that works contribute to salvation which he has been arguing throughout the letter. If you read verses 2 to 6 in the chapter you quoted from you'll see that Paul is contrasting faith working through love to law obedience which causes people to fall away from grace. Faith working through love is what we should be aiming for for love and good works are the fruit of faith but in Galatians Paul couldn't be clearer. They don't save anyone. Paul argues that at length. In the rest of the chapter Paul discusses how we should use the freedom we have already in Christ not for license to sin but for God's glory. I discussed this concept earlier in the thread. Is it any wonder at all that Galatians and Romans were the lighter fluid for the Reformation?

On Philippians every Protestant would agree that faith is a race that involves persevering to the last day. This doesn't mean that we are saved by works or that work contributes to our salvation.

There's a lot of value in simply reading what the Bible says carefully asking for the Spirit to guide and carefully interpreting it's words and being soft hearted enough to listen.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe. That's all . Nothing in my hands I bring.

Despite what the Council of Trent said I don't have a vain confidence. Jesus did it all. See the nails. See the blood. See the cross. See the empty tomb. Why isn't this enough?

Much thanks in the secure rescue of Jesus,
solodeogloria

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning.

Your position seems to be that works contribute to salvation from this post. If this is true my question is still applicable. If not please clarify. I've never said you believe it is works alone but from this post it's clear you believe works contribute to salvation. In which case I'd like for you to answer my question please.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

What I mean by works is doing God's will, what do you mean by "works" ?

And while you're at it show us where God commanded people to have faith alone, and that doing his will is not required and can be ignored.

Tell us about how the rich man, with sincere faith in God, chooses to live out his life sitting under a shady palm will achieve salvation without doing anything.

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

And while you're at it show us where God commanded people to have faith alone, and that doing his will is not required and can be ignored.

Perhaps the shoe can be placed on the other foot where you show where doing his will is required in the context of it being necessary for salvation?

Tell us about how the rich man, with sincere faith in God, chooses to live out his life sitting under a shady palm will achieve salvation without doing anything.

How about an acronym: RMSP (rich man shady palm)

solodeogloria

Good evening.

Arkady wrote: »

What I mean by works is doing God's will, what do you mean by "works" ?

And while you're at it show us where God commanded people to have faith alone, and that doing his will is not required and can be ignored.

Tell us about how the rich man, with sincere faith in God, chooses to live out his life sitting under a shady palm will achieve salvation without doing anything.

When Paul speaks about works in Romans chapter 4 he seems to be referring to good deeds. He looks to Abraham in Genesis 15:7 and concludes that Abraham couldn't have been saved by his works, or by circumcision because he received righteousness as a gift. In chapter 1 he has stated definitively that the default state of man is that God's wrath is revealed against Him, chapters 2 and 3 establish that there is no other get out clause for God's judgement without Christ's saving death and Paul uses Abraham as an example in chapter 4.

Works don't contribute (even in part) to our salvation. If the faith that we have is genuine we will love and serve others. However, we don't do these things to be saved, but because we are saved already in Christ Jesus.

It seems that you don't distinguish salvation from sanctification. The Bible does. Paul discusses both the concept of justification and sanctification in Romans. One is how we are made right with God through Jesus' death and resurrection. The other is how we live for Him as a result of that salvation.

So in answer to your shady palm tree situation. If the man in question has been truly transformed by Jesus, He will live for Him. But He is already saved by the cross.

The idea that one doesn't do anything after being saved is a concept called antinomianism (or as Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls it in his Cost of Discipleship - cheap grace) and it is rejected by the vast majority of Protestants myself included.

Paul firmly rebukes it in Galatians 5 which I have already quoted from in this thread if you will go back and read my posts.

This is a discussion that needs to be had with an open Bible. I disagree with the assessment that we can have a constructive conversation about the Gospel without discussing the text of the Bible. The Bible (irrespective of whether or not people accept sola scriptura) is the primary source we have to deal with.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His certain rescue plan,
solodeogloria

Arkady

antiskeptic wrote: »

Perhaps the shoe can be placed on the other foot where you show where doing his will is required in the context of it being necessary for salvation?

This thread is about trying to find some logic in the five solas. The whole of scripture is littered with God asking man to do his will. So how does one get saved without doing his will ? How would Abraham have been saved if he said "God my faith is huge, but since doing your will is not required for salvation, I'll just stay at home,. I'm saved you know. Luther told me so."

Or how about Noah "cheers God, I have faith in you, but i'm not into building arks, I'll just make some more wine, I'm saved anyway"

Or how about Peter "cheers Jesus, I have faith in you and I'm saved, but as doing your will is not required, I'm off to do some fishing, you head off and do some preaching there if you want."

antiskeptic wrote: »

How about an acronym: RMSP (rich man shady palm)

Sure. Or you could even have a real go at the question.

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

Sure. Or you could even have a real go at the question this time.

Or you could answer mine?

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Or you could answer mine?

God commands throughout scripture to do his will.
And while you're at it you could answer mine, and the others you have failed to.

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

If the faith that we have is genuine we will love and serve others.

So if that's the case why does God command us to ? No need to command anyone if they have faith alone, and no need to do anything if you have faith alone. It's all taken care of accoring to the logic of only faith alone and nothing else.

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

God commands throughout scripture to do his will.
And while you're at it you could answer mine, and the others you have failed to.

Good evening.

I've answered your questions at length and to the best of my ability. You've not even attempted to answer mine. As for God's commandments, they are good and just. The problem is that we have all sinned and we need a Saviour. That's at the heart of the gospel. We need God's rescue and God's help in order to follow God rightfully. That's what He offers us in His Son.

If we weren't saved by grace we'd all deserve hell. Quite honestly.

I won't reply further until you honestly respond to my question.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening.

I've answered your questions at length and to the best of my ability. You've not even attempted to answer mine. As for God's commandments, they are good and just. The problem is that we have all sinned and we need a Saviour. That's at the heart of the gospel. We need God's rescue and God's help in order to follow God rightfully. That's what He offers us in His Son.

If we weren't saved by grace we'd all deserve hell. Quite honestly.

I won't reply further until you honestly respond to my question.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Your question has been answered, and here it is again . . . one of the components required for salvation is to do God's will, it's evident throughout scripture. But the snag for you, as you well know, is that Sola Fide along with (oxymoron that it is) all the other solas that claim to be alones is the actual thread topic. That is what is actually being questioned here - the topic. No wonder you're always so desperate to avoid any questions on the solas, and the following questions, just for starters, about your illogical claim of "faith alone".

So how does one get saved without doing God's will ?

How would Abraham have been saved if he said "God my faith is huge, but since doing your will is not required for salvation, I'll just stay at home. I'm saved you know. Luther told me so, he's not into doing God's will, and he doesn't have to." ?

Or how about Noah "cheers God, I have faith in you, but i'm not into building arks, I'll just make some more wine and have snooze, sure I'm saved by my faith alone anyway" ?

Or how about Peter "Cheers Jesus, I have faith in you and I'm saved by faith alone, and as doing your will is not required for salvation, I'm off to do some fishing in my new boat, you head off with the other lads and do some preaching there if you want." ?

In each of those examples, one by one, tell us how they could have been saved by having faith alone and not doing God's will and commandments ?

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

Sure. Or you could even have a real go at the question.

I had a go at the question. You just didn't like (or attempt to deal with) the answer: When saved > Spirit takes up residence > motivation to do God's will follows > doing God's will follows. If resisting the Spirit's urging, then discipline follows.

I've yet to see you address that other than by insisting, it appears, that doing God's will is required for salvation. But that's not how you dismantle an argument - by insisting something else is the case. You pick out the flaw in the argument.

In short, the man can sit under a tree if he likes, just like my 4 and a half year old can threaten to wreck his room if I don't let him out. Knock yourself out both of you! All that happens is that consequences will follow: from God to the rich man, to my son from me.



I've not seen one reason given by you why salvation should be one of those consequences. So he asks/impores/threatens/urges us to do his will? Why suppose salvation involved? Where the connection?

You seem to presuming a position without any argument whatsoever and demanding that others dismantle it. How can a person dismantle an argument that hasn't be erected yet??

Arkady

antiskeptic wrote: »

I had a go at the question. You just didn't like (or attempt to deal with) the answer: When saved > Spirit takes up residence > motivation to do God's will follows > doing God's will follows. If resisting the Spirit's urging, then discipline follows.

So it's faith and spirit, not faith alone at all. The spirit enters, and doing God's will is not required, just hypnotism and the loss of free will. Zapped like zombies.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I've yet to see you address that other than by insisting, it appears, that doing God's will is required for salvation. But that's not how you dismantle an argument - by insisting something else is the case. You pick out the flaw in the argument.

Find me someone in scripture that had faith alone and was not required to do God's will ?

antiskeptic wrote: »

In short, the man can sit under a tree if he likes, just like my 4 and a half year old can threaten to wreck his room if I don't let him out. Knock yourself out both of you! All that happens is that consequences will follow: from God to the rich man, to my son from me.

But why threaten him to do God's will, faith alone, which he has, is all that's required apparently.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I've not seen one reason given by you why salvation should be one of those consequences. So he asks/impores/threatens/urges us to do his will? Why suppose salvation involved? Where the connection?

Ah it's faith alone, but do this or else . . so much for faith alone.

antiskeptic

Arkady wrote: »

So it's faith and spirit, not faith alone at all. The spirit enters, and doing God's will is not required, just hypnotism and the loss of free will. Zapped like zombies.

Salvation by faith opens the door to a whole raft of changes. Akin to the Normandy landings. The Holy Spirit taking residence up is but one of those things. The battle motif is hardly a scriptural secret. The changes don't produce the salvation. The salvation results in the changes. Not faith + spirit= salvation, thus.

-

You're inability/unwillingness to read what's presented you - and reply to it rigorously, is beginning to concern me. I clearly stated that a person can resist the urging of the Spirit and sit on their bums - for which consequences would follow.

Which part of resisting the Spirit (which implies a will to resist) do you not comprehend?


Arkady

You're displaying all the signs of Forum Fatigue. The attempt to deal with all comers as rapidly as they respond to you, means the quality of your responses degrades. Just a printing too much money too quickly reduces the purchasing power of a currency

I'd suggest, rather than head to CARM (where you would be chopped to pieces), you trim your activity back, pick a poster you can engage with, take your time and start producing some quality results.

Over und out

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

Your question has been answered, and here it is again . . . one of the components required for salvation is to do God's will, it's evident throughout scripture. But the snag for you, as you well know, is that Sola Fide along with (oxymoron that it is) all the other solas that claim to be alones is the actual thread topic. That is what is actually being questioned here - the topic. No wonder you're always so desperate to avoid any questions on the solas, and the following questions, just for starters, about your illogical claim of "faith alone".

So how does one get saved without doing God's will ?

How would Abraham have been saved if he said "God my faith is huge, but since doing your will is not required for salvation, I'll just stay at home. I'm saved you know. Luther told me so, he's not into doing God's will, and he doesn't have to." ?

Or how about Noah "cheers God, I have faith in you, but i'm not into building arks, I'll just make some more wine and have snooze, sure I'm saved by my faith alone anyway" ?

Or how about Peter "Cheers Jesus, I have faith in you and I'm saved by faith alone, and as doing your will is not required for salvation, I'm off to do some fishing in my new boat, you head off with the other lads and do some preaching there if you want." ?

In each of those examples, one by one, tell us how they could have been saved by having faith alone and not doing God's will and commandments ?

Good morning all,

My point is that we're saved through faith in Christ's sufficient death alone. We do what God asks because we love Him and because He enables us to do so by transforming our hearts and minds by the Spirit.

On Abraham. Noah and Peter let's quote the passages. On Abraham we see he was reckoned righteous by faith in Genesis 15.

I'll give you another chance to answer my question. We need to get onto tangible Biblical turf now. My question asked about the New Testament and where it says works contribute to salvation. I've quoted lots to undermine that argument in this thread.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

alma73

solodeogloria wrote: »

On Philippians every Protestant would agree that faith is a race that involves persevering to the last day. This doesn't mean that we are saved by works or that work contributes to our salvation.

Ok. Lets get back to fundamentals. We can both agree that we can't be saved without Christ who died on the Cross for our sins. No matter how much we work, without Christ there is no salvation. I presume you agree with this?

Now when a Baptised Christian accepts Christ as his/her Saviour this entails and act. We could not accept he is our saviour and reject Christ or with our Free will we can accept Christ as our saviour. This act of our own free will is essential for our salvation, a Salvation that Christ has paid for, a Salvation that is not possible without Christ, but is also not possible without our act, without an action, a work on our part. (I presume Protestants believe Humans were created with free will).

Once you have accepted Christ as your Saviour and live in his grace, he will demand that you follow the Gospel? Correct? Nowhere in the Gospel does he say a Rich man who believes in him and sits under a palm tree will be saved.. (I think he said the opposite).

Yes, no matter how much good works we do won't make us more saved. Only Christ can save us. However its clear from Christ same Gospel that not doing his commands, by not acting we are not following him, we are not saved.

I think we are both looking at the same Object from different sides. Its like looking at a cylinder and depending where you look from it could be a circle, while others see a cylinder.

The act of electing Christ every day and following him every day with your free will is essential for salvation. Its not a once off action, its constant.

What Catholics believe is very much biblical. Its what Christ taught.

solodeogloria

Good evening all!

alma73 wrote: »

Ok. Lets get back to fundamentals. We can both agree that we can't be saved without Christ who died on the Cross for our sins. No matter how much we work, without Christ there is no salvation. I presume you agree with this?

Yes, I agree with this. Except I would strengthen it. We are saved by Christ alone.

alma73 wrote: »

Now when a Baptised Christian accepts Christ as his/her Saviour this entails and act. We could not accept he is our saviour and reject Christ or with our Free will we can accept Christ as our saviour. This act of our own free will is essential for our salvation, a Salvation that Christ has paid for, a Salvation that is not possible without Christ, but is also not possible without our act, without an action, a work on our part. (I presume Protestants believe Humans were created with free will).

Firstly - I believe that baptism is a response to our salvation not a requirement for it. Baptism is a sacrament, an outside sign of an inward spiritual motion.

Secondly - I believe that God predestines us to salvation. I also believe that we are responsible for what we do. This is Biblical and Paul in Romans in particular spends a lot of time on it (Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 1), Jesus clearly also held to it. You can see this extensively in John's gospel for example. I believe in predestination and human responsibility.

alma73 wrote: »

Once you have accepted Christ as your Saviour and live in his grace, he will demand that you follow the Gospel? Correct? Nowhere in the Gospel does he say a Rich man who believes in him and sits under a palm tree will be saved.. (I think he said the opposite).

You're mixing up two things here. We are saved by Christ alone. We are called to live for Him in light of that salvation. Faith without works is dead, but only because works are the natural fruit of faith. Works do not save. Ephesians 2:8-10 is very clear that even our good works are from God. Romans 4 is clear that Abraham's righteousness was a gift by faith.

alma73 wrote: »

Yes, no matter how much good works we do won't make us more saved. Only Christ can save us. However its clear from Christ same Gospel that not doing his commands, by not acting we are not following him, we are not saved.

I don't agree that our works contribute to our salvation at all. That's where we differ.

alma73 wrote: »

The act of electing Christ every day and following him every day with your free will is essential for salvation. Its not a once off action, its constant.

The Gospel is the power of God onto salvation for those who believe. That's it. The Christian who has been transformed by God will live for Him as a result. That is after Jesus' saving death becomes effective for us through faith, not before it.

alma73 wrote: »

What Catholics believe is very much biblical. Its what Christ taught.

The conclusions of the Council of Trent against Martin Luther don't seem to be Biblical. I agree with much of Catholic teaching, but there are areas I honestly find problematic.

I do appreciate the tone that you have struck with me though. I value good discussion.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

alma73

@solodeogloria. Do you beleive we have free will? Do you believe God created us with free will?

Arkady

antiskeptic wrote: »

Salvation by faith opens the door to a whole raft of changes. Akin to the Normandy landings. The Holy Spirit taking residence up is but one of those things.

You're inability/unwillingness to read what's presented you - and reply to it rigorously, is beginning to concern me. I clearly stated that a person can resist the urging of the Spirit and sit on their bums - for which consequences would follow.

Which part of resisting the Spirit (which implies a will to resist) do you not comprehend?

Again everything you've written contradicts faith alone = salvation, not to mention free will.

Every defence of "sola" fide posted on the thread to date reverts to a version of "well what we really mean is faith + something + something else = salvation."

antiskeptic wrote: »

Arkady

You're displaying all the signs of Forum Fatigue. The attempt to deal with all comers as rapidly as they respond to you, means the quality of your responses degrades. Just a printing too much money too quickly reduces the purchasing power of a currency

I'd suggest, rather than head to CARM (where you would be chopped to pieces), you trim your activity back, pick a poster you can engage with, take your time and start producing some quality results.

Over und out

I popped into Carm to have a look, and it's rubbish to put it kindly. It's specialty is sectarian ad hominem arguments and misquotes, and not something I'd waste my time on either. The site is also obsessed with splitting, categorising, and pigeonholing Christians and discussions into as many different denominations and prejudiced assumptions as possible.

I did a thread search for the solas, and sola fide, in the hope that among the dross in there, someone would have presented a quality logically structured argument, with true premises, leading to a sound conclusion, one that is supported by scripture as whole, and supported by Christian belief and practice throughout the centuries. Again, nothing there.

If something of quality appears that (1) complies with the basic rules of logic and (2) reflects what is actually written in scripture as a whole (rather than the usual out of context misquotes, aka a pretext) (3) and isn't junior level straw manning, and is deserving of putting time into it, then I will.

Until then . . .

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning all,

My point is that we're saved through faith in Christ's sufficient death alone. We do what God asks because we love Him and because He enables us to do so by transforming our hearts and minds by the Spirit.

On Abraham. Noah and Peter let's quote the passages. On Abraham we see he was reckoned righteous by faith in Genesis 15.

I'll give you another chance to answer my question. We need to get onto tangible Biblical turf now. My question asked about the New Testament and where it says works contribute to salvation. I've quoted lots to undermine that argument in this thread.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

You question was already answered several times, but here it is again, from the old testament to the new, man is required to do the will of God.
The entire book, from cover to cover.

I see you've avoided the questions you were specifically asked to answer yet again. I'm not surprised.

solodeogloria

Arkady wrote: »

You question was already answered several times, but here it is again, from the old testament to the new, man is required to do the will of God.
The entire book, from cover to cover.

I see you've avoided the questions you were specifically asked to answer yet again. I'm not surprised.

Good evening!

Forgive me but I don't see any Bible passage quoted or explained in any of your posts. I've systematically explained using several passages how my position holds together. I've even explained how Romans, Galatians and a lot of Ephesians works in respect to this topic along with bits of John. All say explicitly that our works don't contribute to salvation.

Nick Park and I answered all of your questions at length.

If you aren't interested in discussing please don't.

alma73: I believe in predestination like Augustine did because the Bible clearly teaches it. I also believe in human responsibility. I'm not sure how both work together but neither was Paul in Romans 9 - 11. Predestination is explicitly mentioned in the Bible and can't be ignored.

Much thanks in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Arkady

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Forgive me but I don't see any Bible passage quoted or explained in any of your posts. I've systematically explained using several passages how my position holds together. I've even explained how Romans, Galatians and a lot of Ephesians works in respect to this topic along with bits of John. All say explicitly that our works don't contribute to salvation.

Nick Park and I answered all of your questions at length.

If you aren't interested in discussing please don't.

alma73: I believe in predestination like Augustine did because the Bible clearly teaches it. I also believe in human responsibility. I'm not sure how both work together but neither was Paul in Romans 9 - 11. Predestination is explicitly mentioned in the Bible and can't be ignored.

Much thanks in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

You question was already answered several times, man is required to do the will of God. See the old testament and the new. You won't find anywhere man is not repeatedly reminded to do the will of God.

" Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. " - No word of faith alone here.

For every out of context verse and misquote you have re cut and pasted, I can cut and paste ten. When you post something of quality, worth refuting, I'll be glad to post chapter and verse.

I see you've avoided the questions you were specifically asked to answer yet again. Again . . . I'm not surprised.