solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning all! This is the question: It isn't a straw man as you have argued that works contribute to our salvation. I understand that you mean this partially but this still weakens the cross and it's sufficiency for us. I'm arguing that our works contribute to our sanctification which is different. The only invention is that grace is achieved by participating in the sacraments. Luther simply taught the Apostolic Gospel. It was the Papacy who argued for grace to be attained by works by our participation and the church being Lord over the Bible. Please show me how grace attained through participation in the sacraments is Biblical. I make no apologies for being Reformed. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus, solodeogloria
alma73 wrote: » Where does Christ say that not doing his works will save us? Our works not only contribute to our sanctification, without doing the work that Christ wills us to do we can't be saved. We all believe we can't be saved without Faith in Christ. However having that faith that Christ died for us does not save us alone. The Devil believes Christ died for our sins, that does not make him saved.
Arkady wrote: » You've tried the same strawman yet again. It's not works and never has been and no denomination claims it is, nor have I, so it's pointless to keep pretending and misrepresenting the position in the style of some second rate cheesy american televangelist. It's not going to fool anyone with even a passing understanding of other denominations. It's faith and works among many other things including the Trinity and God's grace. Again I asked you before : Find a mainstream denomination that claims its works alone, and post proof that they do.
solodeogloria wrote: » Please just answer my question. You don't believe it's works alone but you do believe it is Jesus + works. I get that. Please answer my question because it isn't a straw man.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good evening all! I would like you to answer the question I asked. The New Testament is clear that we are saved by grace and not by works and I've quoted lots from the Bible and I have answered every question you have asked. I would now appreciate if someone could just please answer the question. It's not fair that I answered all your questions and you've ignored mine. Much thanks in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
Arkady wrote: » @ antiskeptic, can you recommend better forums for discussing this, something with a bit of substance that doesn't try to insult people's intelligence with cut and paste from chick pamphlets / american televangelism / paisleyism ?
Arkady wrote: » Find any mainstream denomination that claims salvation is by works (as you claim others do), and post proof that they claim this. You won't because you can't.
alma73 wrote: » Faith involves an ascent to Gods truth, obedience to God, it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12) Keeping the faith is a work in progress, because you can loose it. Grace and works or working to keep the faith are inseparable and very much biblical (not just a Catholic tradition). Certainly if Christ had not died everything would be in vain, without him there is no salvation no matter how much we work. But man was created free, and with our Free will we elect Christ. This is an act, with out will we elect Christ, we believe in him. You can't separate faith and action. Our works (and by work that could simply be praying or living a life like Christ) give testimony to our Faith and keep us close to Christ.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning. Your position seems to be that works contribute to salvation from this post. If this is true my question is still applicable. If not please clarify. I've never said you believe it is works alone but from this post it's clear you believe works contribute to salvation. In which case I'd like for you to answer my question please. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
Arkady wrote: » And while you're at it show us where God commanded people to have faith alone, and that doing his will is not required and can be ignored.
Tell us about how the rich man, with sincere faith in God, chooses to live out his life sitting under a shady palm will achieve salvation without doing anything.
Arkady wrote: » What I mean by works is doing God's will, what do you mean by "works" ? And while you're at it show us where God commanded people to have faith alone, and that doing his will is not required and can be ignored. Tell us about how the rich man, with sincere faith in God, chooses to live out his life sitting under a shady palm will achieve salvation without doing anything.
antiskeptic wrote: » Perhaps the shoe can be placed on the other foot where you show where doing his will is required in the context of it being necessary for salvation?
antiskeptic wrote: » How about an acronym: RMSP (rich man shady palm)
Arkady wrote: » Sure. Or you could even have a real go at the question this time.
solodeogloria wrote: » Or you could answer mine?
solodeogloria wrote: » If the faith that we have is genuine we will love and serve others.
Arkady wrote: » God commands throughout scripture to do his will. And while you're at it you could answer mine, and the others you have failed to.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good evening. I've answered your questions at length and to the best of my ability. You've not even attempted to answer mine. As for God's commandments, they are good and just. The problem is that we have all sinned and we need a Saviour. That's at the heart of the gospel. We need God's rescue and God's help in order to follow God rightfully. That's what He offers us in His Son. If we weren't saved by grace we'd all deserve hell. Quite honestly. I won't reply further until you honestly respond to my question. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
Arkady wrote: » Sure. Or you could even have a real go at the question.
antiskeptic wrote: » I had a go at the question. You just didn't like (or attempt to deal with) the answer: When saved > Spirit takes up residence > motivation to do God's will follows > doing God's will follows. If resisting the Spirit's urging, then discipline follows.
antiskeptic wrote: » I've yet to see you address that other than by insisting, it appears, that doing God's will is required for salvation. But that's not how you dismantle an argument - by insisting something else is the case. You pick out the flaw in the argument.
antiskeptic wrote: » In short, the man can sit under a tree if he likes, just like my 4 and a half year old can threaten to wreck his room if I don't let him out. Knock yourself out both of you! All that happens is that consequences will follow: from God to the rich man, to my son from me.
antiskeptic wrote: » I've not seen one reason given by you why salvation should be one of those consequences. So he asks/impores/threatens/urges us to do his will? Why suppose salvation involved? Where the connection?
Arkady wrote: » So it's faith and spirit, not faith alone at all. The spirit enters, and doing God's will is not required, just hypnotism and the loss of free will. Zapped like zombies.
Arkady wrote: » Your question has been answered, and here it is again . . . one of the components required for salvation is to do God's will, it's evident throughout scripture. But the snag for you, as you well know, is that Sola Fide along with (oxymoron that it is) all the other solas that claim to be alones is the actual thread topic. That is what is actually being questioned here - the topic. No wonder you're always so desperate to avoid any questions on the solas, and the following questions, just for starters, about your illogical claim of "faith alone". So how does one get saved without doing God's will ? How would Abraham have been saved if he said "God my faith is huge, but since doing your will is not required for salvation, I'll just stay at home. I'm saved you know. Luther told me so, he's not into doing God's will, and he doesn't have to." ? Or how about Noah "cheers God, I have faith in you, but i'm not into building arks, I'll just make some more wine and have snooze, sure I'm saved by my faith alone anyway" ? Or how about Peter "Cheers Jesus, I have faith in you and I'm saved by faith alone, and as doing your will is not required for salvation, I'm off to do some fishing in my new boat, you head off with the other lads and do some preaching there if you want." ? In each of those examples, one by one, tell us how they could have been saved by having faith alone and not doing God's will and commandments ?
solodeogloria wrote: » On Philippians every Protestant would agree that faith is a race that involves persevering to the last day. This doesn't mean that we are saved by works or that work contributes to our salvation.
alma73 wrote: » Ok. Lets get back to fundamentals. We can both agree that we can't be saved without Christ who died on the Cross for our sins. No matter how much we work, without Christ there is no salvation. I presume you agree with this?
alma73 wrote: » Now when a Baptised Christian accepts Christ as his/her Saviour this entails and act. We could not accept he is our saviour and reject Christ or with our Free will we can accept Christ as our saviour. This act of our own free will is essential for our salvation, a Salvation that Christ has paid for, a Salvation that is not possible without Christ, but is also not possible without our act, without an action, a work on our part. (I presume Protestants believe Humans were created with free will).
alma73 wrote: » Once you have accepted Christ as your Saviour and live in his grace, he will demand that you follow the Gospel? Correct? Nowhere in the Gospel does he say a Rich man who believes in him and sits under a palm tree will be saved.. (I think he said the opposite).
alma73 wrote: » Yes, no matter how much good works we do won't make us more saved. Only Christ can save us. However its clear from Christ same Gospel that not doing his commands, by not acting we are not following him, we are not saved.
alma73 wrote: » The act of electing Christ every day and following him every day with your free will is essential for salvation. Its not a once off action, its constant.
alma73 wrote: » What Catholics believe is very much biblical. Its what Christ taught.
antiskeptic wrote: » Salvation by faith opens the door to a whole raft of changes. Akin to the Normandy landings. The Holy Spirit taking residence up is but one of those things. You're inability/unwillingness to read what's presented you - and reply to it rigorously, is beginning to concern me. I clearly stated that a person can resist the urging of the Spirit and sit on their bums - for which consequences would follow. Which part of resisting the Spirit (which implies a will to resist) do you not comprehend?
antiskeptic wrote: » Arkady You're displaying all the signs of Forum Fatigue. The attempt to deal with all comers as rapidly as they respond to you, means the quality of your responses degrades. Just a printing too much money too quickly reduces the purchasing power of a currency I'd suggest, rather than head to CARM (where you would be chopped to pieces), you trim your activity back, pick a poster you can engage with, take your time and start producing some quality results. Over und out
solodeogloria wrote: » Good morning all, My point is that we're saved through faith in Christ's sufficient death alone. We do what God asks because we love Him and because He enables us to do so by transforming our hearts and minds by the Spirit. On Abraham. Noah and Peter let's quote the passages. On Abraham we see he was reckoned righteous by faith in Genesis 15. I'll give you another chance to answer my question. We need to get onto tangible Biblical turf now. My question asked about the New Testament and where it says works contribute to salvation. I've quoted lots to undermine that argument in this thread. Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
Arkady wrote: » You question was already answered several times, but here it is again, from the old testament to the new, man is required to do the will of God. The entire book, from cover to cover. I see you've avoided the questions you were specifically asked to answer yet again. I'm not surprised.
solodeogloria wrote: » Good evening! Forgive me but I don't see any Bible passage quoted or explained in any of your posts. I've systematically explained using several passages how my position holds together. I've even explained how Romans, Galatians and a lot of Ephesians works in respect to this topic along with bits of John. All say explicitly that our works don't contribute to salvation. Nick Park and I answered all of your questions at length. If you aren't interested in discussing please don't. alma73: I believe in predestination like Augustine did because the Bible clearly teaches it. I also believe in human responsibility. I'm not sure how both work together but neither was Paul in Romans 9 - 11. Predestination is explicitly mentioned in the Bible and can't be ignored. Much thanks in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, solodeogloria
