Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VI

Zzippy

Last thread bursting at the seams. Keep it civil folks. Come on Ireland!

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Does VdF know The System©?

Bearing in mind McCloskey was around the squad last 6N, VdF would have to be a very fast learner to get it so quickly.

Was he?

former total

stephen_n wrote: »

Was he?

I thought the Barbarians game in May was his first involvement (which would count for very little).

CMOTDibbler

Billysays no wrote: »

Apologies. You are once again correct. To tag Healy onto the Irish team in his current form is beyond believable. But once a player has once played for Ireland he will always play for Ireland. Form is irrelevant. So we do have to wait for joe to move on or our players to simply get injured. Its a shocking indictment of Irish management. Bottom line with McCloskey and jvdf I now want to watch Ireland again

Darren Cave, Craig Gilroy, Rodney Ah You, Robin Copeland, Robbie Diack, Dave Foley, Ian Keatley, Kieran Marmion, Stuart Olding, Dominic Ryan, Rob Herring and Noel Reid have all been on and want to know when they will "always play for Ireland".

The Rape of Lucretia

swiwi_ wrote: »

If VdF gets injured Ireland are in trouble, I really don't think any of Stander, Ruddock or Heaslip are adequate 7 cover.!

Maybe the Ruddock prediction is incorrect, and its why Murphy was added. Not perfect at 7 either but a more versatile balanced cover than Tod or Ruddock ?

Clegg

I don't think McCloskey was in the last 6N squad or even there just to hold tackle bags like Ringrose. Anyway he's the obvious selection and for the first time in years we'll have a a centre partnership that is physically more physically imposing than the opposition.

VdF is a workhorse, but probably not quite the presence at the breakdown yet to really excel at the highest level. I'm delighted for him though. Watched him a lot at the RDS this season and the amount of work he gets through is astonishing. Been one of the standout Leinster and Irish based players this season.

errlloyd

This centre combination will be the heaviest to take the field all 6n right? Even bigger than Roberts and Davies. Right there you have the logic, with those two lumps smashing, Heaslip and CJ doing a bit, vdf is free to be a Justin Tipuric mold of flanker.

Im delighted with that team. Dillane would be a sweetener. As would PJ

Billysays no

Zzippy wrote: »

Last thread bursting at the seams. Keep it civil folks. Come on Ireland!

Come on the start of a new Ireland. Is josh vdf not a super player. Is not Ross a step backwards. Is not Healy a step backwards?. Is McCloskey a step forwards. Is vdf a step forwards. Is rob Kearney a serious option when you have the potential of toh or olding who are quality. Do you want to see a disfunctional Kearney performance or something better.

The Rape of Lucretia

Billysays no wrote: »

Is not Ross a step backwards. Is not Healy a step backwards?. Is McCloskey a step forwards. Is vdf a step forwards. Is rob Kearney a serious option

Are we doing Lanngan's Ball or the The Hokey Cokey ?

Neil3030

Unreal if VDF gets the nod. A star in the making. McCloskey, Hensh, Stander all carrying; yes please. Be great if Gilroy also gets the nod and comes in off his wing on first phases to stretch their D line.

I like rugby again.

calico77

Billysays no wrote: »

Come on the start of a new Ireland. Is josh vdf not a super player. Is not Ross a step backwards. Is not Healy a step backwards?. Is McCloskey a step forwards. Is vdf a step forwards. Is rob Kearney a serious option when you have the potential of toh or olding who are quality. Do you want to see a disfunctional Kearney performance or something better.

Healy as in Cian? How could he possibly be considered a step back. Even off form him and ross are our two best props when it comes to scrum time. You might not like certain selections but your not the one putting the team together, or trying to strike a balance between improving the attacking aspects while retaining some form of defence solidity.

Billysays no

calico77 wrote: »

Healy as in Cian? How could he possibly be considered a step back. Even off form him and ross are our two best props when it comes to scrum time.

Joe agrees. You can play ****e, you can be useless but you can play for Ireland. Zebo a classic, Ross is so past it even Connacht wouldn't want him. And then Denis Buckley is worse than an absolutely appalling Healy. But let's stick with the known

errlloyd

What's amazing to me is that a year I'd have said that vdf and mccloskey were the weakest of the cohort in their position they came through with.

In reality, McC has a low profile compared to other young ulster players. Olding, Gilroy, Marshall, Jackson. Even Farrell in some ways.

A year ago I didn't think vdf would get a look in beyond his own compitition in the backrow, primarily Murphy. The forced retirements at Leinster and the world cup gave him a chance, he's yet to give it back.

The Rape of Lucretia

Billysays no wrote: »

Joe agrees. You can play ****e, you can be useless but you can play for Ireland. Zebo a classic, Ross is so past it even Connacht wouldn't want him. And then Denis Buckley is worse than an absolutely appalling Healy. But let's stick with the known

Agree with you - as does Joe as you say. The known allows coaches to plan, and they know the strengths and weaknesses of the players. The bottom line is that its better throwing in unknown quantities and hoping it pays off.

calico77

Billysays no wrote: »

Joe agrees. You can play ****e, you can be useless but you can play for Ireland. Zebo a classic, Ross is so past it even Connacht wouldn't want him. And then Denis Buckley is worse than an absolutely appalling Healy. But let's stick with the known

Why don't you try putting together a coherent argument. There is no "useless" or "appalling" player in the ireland squad. Ross offers little around the park but a solid scrum still provides a lot of value in international rugby.

If it was as easy as throw in all these players that you suggest numerous times then the coach would have done so by now but it is far from that easy. A concept you cannot seem to grasp.

Billysays no

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Agree with you - as does Joe as you say. The known allows coaches to plan, and they know the strengths and weaknesses of the players. The bottom line is that its better throwing in unknown quantities and hoping it pays off.

Rather than playing known shocking players. Where does that get you. Hmm where we are. Shock, horror. Play our best players. Now I am happy.

calico77

Billysays no wrote: »

Rather than playing known shocking players. Where does that get you. Hmm where we are. Shock, horror. Play our best players. Now I am happy.

VDF is not better then SoB
Payne is out by the looks of it and he was probably our best player in 2015. Our defence was rock solid largely because of him.

We are where we are because of lack of accuracy in attack and a scrum which creaked a bit at vital times. The doom and gloom is ridiculous. We still have a good team that isnt a million miles away from where it needs to be.

Billysays no

calico77 wrote: »

VDF is not better then SoB
Payne is out by the looks of it and he was probably our best player in 2015. Our defence was rock solid largely because of him.

We are where we are because of lack of accuracy in attack and a scrum which creaked a bit at vital times. The doom and gloom is ridiculous. We still have a good team that isnt a million miles away from where it needs to be.

The day that toh or olding take over full back will be a good day for Ireland. Not much point in having a winger with rob Kearney at full back.

Billysays no

calico77 wrote: »

Why don't you try putting together a coherent argument. There is no "useless" or "appalling" player in the ireland squad. Ross offers little around the park but a solid scrum still provides a lot of value in international rugby.

If it was as easy as throw in all these players that you suggest numerous times then the coach would have done so by now but it is far from that easy. A concept you cannot seem to grasp.

Just to nullify that argument. Cian Healy has been a great player for Ireland. So his domestic form in recent times is below par. So he deserves a callup to the Irish squad on that basis? Ross is on his last legs. We have nobody in the whole of Ireland who can be an alternative to a guy who will last not more than 30 minutes against england. He is no john Hayes. Anyway I will enjoy seeing McCloskey and vdf. While we will likely lose at least its a start.

astonaidan

Billysays no wrote: »

The day that toh or olding take over full back will be a good day for Ireland. Not much point in having a winger with rob Kearney at full back.

Have a fb for our a club who reminds me so much of Kearney, if he was selected the wingers on both sides knew they werent going to touch the ball all game cause he would just run for contact, just never passed we were their for defence pretty much, Ive concluded Kearney is his idol

Neil3030

When did fullback become the primary distribution hub across a backline?

mogwai81

What time does the team get announced for international games 12 or 1pm?

MJohnston

mogwai81 wrote: »

What time does the team get announced for international games 12 or 1pm?

Yes.

rsh118

We are on the precipice of a runaway train with this line up

rsh118

We are on the precipice of a runaway train with this line up...

shuffol

Very exciting selection if true. I don't really see how people can have much fault with how Schmidt is bringing through players, he keeps a settled side but gradually introduces players who he see's are good enough. Certainly the fruits of that are there to see with Henshaw who he fast-tracked into the side in an unfamiliar position and Henderson who whenever he was fit was brought straight into the 23.

Hopefully by the end of the 6N we could also see starts for Furlong, Dillane and Jackson, won't hold my breadth on Gilroy. What would be interesting is if McCloskey and Henshaw go well this weekend leaving Schmidt with a decision to make about what to do with Payne who he seems to view as a vital cog in the side. That midfield and Payne at 15 would really change the look of our backline from functional to threatening. However I think our backline problems start with our pack which without Healy, Henderson and SOB is lacking effective ball carriers at this level.

swiwi_

shuffol wrote: »

I don't really see how people can have much fault with how Schmidt is bringing through players, he keeps a settled side but gradually introduces players who he see's are good enough.

Nah, he consulted with his colleagues Mr. Injury and Mr. Out of the running. In recent-ish times, his selections are largely reactive rather than proactive. Barring a run of upsets, the ship has already sailed for Ireland in this 6N.

shuffol

swiwi_ wrote: »

Nah, he consulted with his colleagues Mr. Injury and Mr. Out of the running. In recent-ish times, his selections are largely reactive rather than proactive. Barring a run of upsets, the ship has already sailed for Ireland in this 6N.

Fair enough, out of curiosity what changes would you have gone for previously?

calico77

Billysays no wrote: »

Just to nullify that argument. Cian Healy has been a great player for Ireland. So his domestic form in recent times is below par. So he deserves a callup to the Irish squad on that basis? Ross is on his last legs. We have nobody in the whole of Ireland who can be an alternative to a guy who will last not more than 30 minutes against england. He is no john Hayes. Anyway I will enjoy seeing McCloskey and vdf. While we will likely lose at least its a start.

Healy at 60-70% is better then all other options excluding mcgrath. He has a way to go to get back to full fitness and form but when he does he is a world class operator. You dont just abandon that. Same for Ross, Last legs or not him and White are probably our two best TH options at scrum time especially. Its one area we need more options but with Furlong and perhaps Bealham (?) we might have two for the medium-long term

Rob Kearney didnt play against wales and we had the same inaccuracies. For all Zebos attacking intent it led to nothing try wise and zero on the scoreboard in general IIRC. Our backline is inhibited by our centres who are easy to read. Once there is inaccuracies in 10-12-13 channel then the wingers are not going to get brought into the game. Rob Kearney was able to find his way into the line on numerous occasions against France, the wingers likewise. The days of just passing the ball through the hands to the winger are long gone sadly. Defences are just too well organised and we have found difficulty finding space.

Awesomeness

calico77 wrote: »

Healy at 60-70% is better then all other options excluding mcgrath. He has a way to go to get back to full fitness and form but when he does he is a world class operator. You dont just abandon that. Same for Ross, Last legs or not him and White are probably our two best TH options at scrum time especially. Its one area we need more options but with Furlong and perhaps Bealham (?) we might have two for the medium-long term

Rob Kearney didnt play against wales and we had the same inaccuracies. For all Zebos attacking intent it led to nothing try wise and zero on the scoreboard in general IIRC. Our backline is inhibited by our centres who are easy to read. Once there is inaccuracies in 10-12-13 channel then the wingers are not going to get brought into the game. Rob Kearney was able to find his way into the line on numerous occasions against France, the wingers likewise. The days of just passing the ball through the hands to the winger are long gone sadly. Defences are just too well organised and we have found difficulty finding space.

While I agree with most of your points you did leave out Marty Moore as one of our best THs

calico77

Awesomeness wrote: »

While I agree with most of your points you did leave out Marty Moore as one of our best THs

Yeah i know but he is currently injured and for the next 3 (?) years we cannot be sure of his inclusion.

swiwi_

shuffol wrote: »

Fair enough, out of curiosity what changes would you have gone for previously?

I've already posted on this, but basically: forwards no room to manoeuvre with the injuries. But in the backs from the opening weekend, I would have had McCloskey at 12 with Henshaw 13 & Payne 15 or Payne 13 & Henshaw 15. I would have had Zebo at 14 not 15 for Wales, I would have had Jackson on the bench, and I most definitely would not have called up McFadden.

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

I've already posted on this, but basically: forwards no room to manoeuvre with the injuries. But in the backs from the opening weekend, I would have had McCloskey at 12 with Henshaw 13 & Payne 15 or Payne 13 & Henshaw 15. I would have had Zebo at 14 not 15 for Wales, I would have had Jackson on the bench, and I most definitely would not have called up McFadden.

Who instead of McFadden

Podge_irl

Considering we would have probably won both the Wales and France games if our scrum was solid the call up of Healy and especially Ross is not exactly all that surprising or unwarranted.

awec

Its on UAFC that Jackson, Gilroy and Olding were out for a meal in Belfast last night.

So we can assume it's still Madigan.

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

So we can assume it's still Madigan.

I really, really, really don't understand that one. It's one of the more baffling calls that Schmidt consistently makes.

vienne86

awec wrote: »

Its on UAFC that Jackson, Gilroy and Olding were out for a meal in Belfast last night.

So we can assume it's still Madigan.

Dammit. I just don't understand how Jackson is getting left out again. I think he playing as well as he has ever played, and I would far prefer to see him coming on than Madigan.

But I'm delighted with the prospect of Van der Flier and McCloskey getting starts.

Sanjuro

I presume the team announcement is today?

awec

Sanjuro wrote: »

I presume the team announcement is today?

At lunch time my dear boy.

swiwi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who instead of McFadden

Marshall for example. With Payne and Henshaw covering the back 3.

shuffol

swiwi_ wrote: »

I've already posted on this, but basically: forwards no room to manoeuvre with the injuries. But in the backs from the opening weekend, I would have had McCloskey at 12 with Henshaw 13 & Payne 15 or Payne 13 & Henshaw 15. I would have had Zebo at 14 not 15 for Wales, I would have had Jackson on the bench, and I most definitely would not have called up McFadden.

That's a 12/13/15 I think most people would like to see but I think you have to look at the context of the selection. We were heavily hit by injuries to experienced players again, we'd a new front row, 2nd row(at test level) and backrow. Whilst I may not agree with it I can understand the argument of staying with a midfield that's a reasonably settled unit and we know works excellently together in defence and is solid in attack.

I agree on McFadden but it was a nothing selection.

LostArt

vienne86 wrote: »

Dammit. I just don't understand how Jackson is getting left out again. I think he playing as well as he has ever played, and I would far prefer to see him coming on than Madigan.

I think it's pretty clear at this stage that for whatever reason Joe doesn't rate Jackson

Noopti

If Madigan is on the bench, that is a very poor call in my opinion. But he will have another chance to prove he deserves it. He will need to run that game perfectly when he gets his chance.

former total

LostArt wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear at this stage that for whatever reason Joe doesn't rate Jackson

Well, we don't yet know that he's been excluded, but if he is, then yes, I think at some point people will have to accept this.

For all the talk of Joe's conservatism etc; this is VDF and McCloskey's first involvement with the squad and they've been (apparently) pitched into the team for their debuts at Twickenham, when he could easily have gone with TOD and Earls at 7 and 13.

So VDF and McCloskey have obviously made enough of an impact in the space of four weeks to earn a jersey. Jackson has been in or around the squad for all of Joe's tenure and seems to be going backwards.

Personally, I think they're much of a muchness and neither are really of the required standard (yet).

errlloyd

Call me old fashioned, but I still think Twickenham is the hardest place to go in the Northern Hemisphere, McCloskey and VDF have to really deliver. I am so pumped, if we get mauled by 30 points but those two player well, I'll be happy.

thomond2006

Who is the backrow sub? Ruddock or TOD? TOD makes more sense if you want versatility. Ruddock probably a better 'power' option.

Pink Fairy

awec wrote: »

At lunch time my dear boy.

For a change ?

former total

thomond2006 wrote: »

Who is the backrow sub? Ruddock or TOD? TOD makes more sense if you want versatility. Ruddock probably a better 'power' option.

I think it will be Ruddock; definitely more powerful and probably more versatile too...

LostArt

former total wrote: »

Personally, I think they're much of a muchness and neither are really of the required standard (yet).

Completely agree, at the moment I'm not too pushed about who gets that slot.

calico77

England squad to face Ireland:
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 39 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 68 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 1 cap)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 12 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 45 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 64 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 23 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 37 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 45 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 5 caps)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 30 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 45 caps)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 2 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 56 caps)
22 Elliot Daly (Wasps, uncapped)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 20 caps)

thomond2006

Care and Daly on the bench, that's some pace to bring on at 60.