Motor Tax To Be Abolished by Renua

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

If it was fairer system, I would still be against it, but less than now

In short - I'm Polish and lived there in Poland over 20 years before I moved here to Ireland.
In Poland we don't have motortax, so my logic is really simple: "In Poland I didn't have to pay any motortax on my car, while in Ireland I do have to pay it. That means Ireland is doing something wrong, as according to my experience it's possible to live without motortax".
This logic is really as simple as that.

I also understand most other posters here, who are Irish and lived here all their lives.
They always paid motortax, their fathers, and grandfathers paid it, so they don't see any other way around it.

It's quite interesting psychology issue I'd say.

I know nothing of Poland, but I presume the tax is just taken in a different way, or the Polish govt. don't provide a service/extent of a service that Irish govt. do?


It's all swings and roundabouts, really?

This is the single reason why I am against changing the system: Any change made will be to increase revenue. Therefore, NO change willbe made to benefit the public.

If the govt reckon they need to add 35c onto the cost of a litre of petrol/diesel to cover the motor tax take, then they'll add on 50c and it'll always go up and never go down.

166man

CiniO wrote: »

If it was fairer system, I would still be against it, but less than now

In short - I'm Polish and lived there in Poland over 20 years before I moved here to Ireland.
In Poland we don't have motortax, so my logic is really simple: "In Poland I didn't have to pay any motortax on my car, while in Ireland I do have to pay it. That means Ireland is doing something wrong, as according to my experience it's possible to live without motortax".
This logic is really as simple as that.

I also understand most other posters here, who are Irish and lived here all their lives.
They always paid motortax, their fathers, and grandfathers paid it, so they don't see any other way around it.

It's quite interesting psychology issue I'd say.

Wake up and smell the fresh air. Your logic is so flawed it's frankly laughable.

Is Ireland wrong to have a 12.5% corporation tax rate because our EU neighbours are higher? Should we raise it to be inline with them?Dont be absurd.

Each country has its own tax laws and with good reason. You cannot have a blanket taxation policy for all countries in the EU.

Canadel

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

What if it was a fairer system like in the UK?

I know it is one I would not be opposed to. Either that or adding 10 cent to fuel would be at least far more progressive than what we have now.

Considering the majority of the population live in urban areas like Dublin and Cork city, I can't imagine their work commutes and weekend driving being long enough to warrant only a 10 cent fuel increase to cover the offset of motor tax.

Also, I don't think it would be entirely progressive as most high earners live in those areas as opposed to rural areas where low earners have longer commutes.

Certainly motor tax could be a lot fairer, and while it seems to make more economic sense to focus the cost on fuel usage, I don't think it's the fairest way either. Though maybe it is if it favours the most people. Hard to know. Seems harsh on rural folk, of which there are many too.

Victor

jimgoose wrote: »

What do you mean by "wealth"?

Accumulated assets, howsoever obtained.

I pay about €30,000 p.a. in tax

I take it that you primarily pay taxes on your income.

bear1 wrote: »

Is there motor tax in the U.S.?

There are vehicle registration taxes imposed by the states, counties or other municipalities. The exact form and means of calculation will vary by jurisdiction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax#United_States

sdanseo

I did up a few figures in Excel for this theory.

A few assumptions:

• The figure of 10c a litre in extra tax was bandied about a bit in the thread, so I started on that.
• The most recent figure I could find from DOE was 2,515,322 vehicles registered in Ireland, that was 2014. 28,000 odd were exempt, enough to discard for a rough estimate here.
• The average mileage for all cars (in 2005) was 16,894km. Could only find split Petrol/Diesel figures for 2011 but presuming 70% diesel the average works out similar.
• The average fuel consumption was 4.89 (Diesel)- 5.49l (Petrol) in l/100km according to the CSO. About 20km/litre.

TLDR: The revenue generated by each 10c on a litre of fuel would net about €212,000,000. Tax would need to be in excess of 50c a litre to offset the income at present (just over €1.1bn). At 16,900km a year and 20km/litre or ~5l/100km that's an average of €422 per vehicle.

Realistically, about €300 per 10,000km on average.

kuro2k

Have the government ever published the cost of collecting the tax in its current form ( incl GARDA resources)?

Victor

kuro2k wrote: »

Have the government ever published the cost of collecting the tax in its current form ( incl GARDA resources)?

Each council will normally detail their costs in their annual accounts.

Garda costs are enforcement costs, not collection costs. In any case, most Garda checkpoints are for other purposes.

daRobot

sdanseo wrote: »

I did up a few figures in Excel for this theory.

A few assumptions:

• The figure of 10c a litre in extra tax was bandied about a bit in the thread, so I started on that.
• The most recent figure I could find from DOE was 2,515,322 vehicles registered in Ireland, that was 2014. 28,000 odd were exempt, enough to discard for a rough estimate here.
• The average mileage for all cars (in 2005) was 16,894km. Could only find split Petrol/Diesel figures for 2011 but presuming 70% diesel the average works out similar.
• The average fuel consumption was 4.89 (Diesel)- 5.49l (Petrol) in l/100km according to the CSO. About 20km/litre.

TLDR: The revenue generated by each 10c on a litre of fuel would net about €212,000,000. Tax would need to be in excess of 50c a litre to offset the income at present (just over €1.1bn). At 16,900km a year and 20km/litre or ~5l/100km that's an average of €422 per vehicle.

Realistically, about €300 per 10,000km on average.

Thanks for those figures.

So going by these rates, to keep the current income from motor tax, if a flat rate were introduced instead of putting it on the fuel it would be approx €435 per car.

The tax take figures would be due to drop anyway, as CC cars gradually get upgraded and the continual evolution of lower emission cars would be placing many of the upgraded fleet into the lowest brackets.

Obviously it's nowhere near as low as the UK, but considering our population size and average income, I think that would be a fair enough price to tax a car per year.

9935452

daRobot wrote: »

Thanks for those figures.

So going by these rates, to keep the current income from motor tax, if a flat rate were introduced instead of putting it on the fuel it would be approx €435 per car.

The tax take figures would be due to drop anyway, as CC cars gradually get upgraded and the continual evolution of lower emission cars would be placing many of the upgraded fleet into the lowest brackets.

Obviously it's nowhere near as low as the UK, but considering our population size and average income, I think that would be a fair enough price to tax a car per year.

I agree that 435 would be a fairish figure if they went flat figure but that is per vehicle not per car.
They would probably have to still have different rates for agricultural/ commercial.
Agricultural is 105 at the moment. if that became 435 , an aweful lot of lads wouldnt bother to tax the tractor as a lot are barely used on the roads. where at 105 its affordable

Caliden

Those fuel consumption figures seem very low to me.

You're saying the average is ~58mpg for diesel and 51mpg for petrol?

Got a link to the CSO source?

Edit: had a look, it's using the manufacturers figure for fuel consumption.

sdanseo

Caliden wrote: »

Those fuel consumption figures seem very low to me.

You're saying the average is ~58mpg for diesel and 51mpg for petrol?

Got a link to the CSO source?

Edit: had a look, it's using the manufacturers figure for fuel consumption.

Yep, comes here.

The figures are indeed manufacturer and so that's why I summed up with so much leeway - unlikely that you're ever going to get those figures.

tanko

daRobot wrote: »

If you vote Renua into power:

http://www.thejournal.ie/renua-flat-tax-2368262-oct2015/#comment-4306641


Seeing as they're the only party to actually address this issue, do your job as a car lover and give them support.

It doesn't look like this will be happening.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

sdanseo wrote: »

I did up a few figures in Excel for this theory.

A few assumptions:

• The figure of 10c a litre in extra tax was bandied about a bit in the thread, so I started on that.
• The most recent figure I could find from DOE was 2,515,322 vehicles registered in Ireland, that was 2014. 28,000 odd were exempt, enough to discard for a rough estimate here.
• The average mileage for all cars (in 2005) was 16,894km. Could only find split Petrol/Diesel figures for 2011 but presuming 70% diesel the average works out similar.
• The average fuel consumption was 4.89 (Diesel)- 5.49l (Petrol) in l/100km according to the CSO. About 20km/litre.

TLDR: The revenue generated by each 10c on a litre of fuel would net about €212,000,000. Tax would need to be in excess of 50c a litre to offset the income at present (just over €1.1bn). At 16,900km a year and 20km/litre or ~5l/100km that's an average of €422 per vehicle.

Realistically, about €300 per 10,000km on average.

Thanks for the numbers, good work

dr.fuzzenstein

tanko wrote: »

It doesn't look like this will be happening.

Never was and never will, there is a small band of v8 enthusiasts and they have dreamt up this scheme. Now they open a thread on this pipe dream about once a week and think if they make enough noise this policy, which will solely benefit large engines cars that aren't driven a lot, will one day happen.
Completely ignoring that the 90% of people who commute would be completely screwed over by this phantasy scenario. Why renua even bothered with this idea, I don't know, but their economic policies look more based on unicorn poop than anything else.

Truckermal

Well we can forget about it now....

*Signs cheque for 1545 euro *..

dr.fuzzenstein

Truckermal wrote: »

Well we can forget about it now....

*Signs cheque for 1545 euro *..

I do disagree with the current tax system, the burden is completely skewed arseways and punishes larger engines disproportionately. But a lot of countries manage realistic tax rates without whacking a sh*reload of tax on fuel AND have insurance rates that aren't completely fcuking mental. And you can even drive a 20 year old car as your daily beater and no one will blink an eye.
Ireland is completely fcuked in the head when it comes to cars. Its always been a place where everyone is just out to rip off as much for themselves as possible. That's why everything will always be at least 20% more expensive than anywhere else.

PurvesGrundy

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ireland is completely fcuked in the head when it comes to cars. Its always been a place where everyone is just out to rip off as much for themselves as possible. That's why everything will always be at least 20% more expensive than anywhere else.

This... this sums it up for me completely.

Spot on.

sdanseo

Well, Lucinda lost her seat. I can go and renew the tax for the full year come April I guess. *cries*

stefanovich

I thought abolishing this tax was perfectly fair. Then you pay for the fuel you use and the pollution you create rather than the size of your engine (which is stupid)

grogi

sdanseo wrote: »

I did up a few figures in Excel for this theory.

A few assumptions:

• The figure of 10c a litre in extra tax was bandied about a bit in the thread, so I started on that.
• The most recent figure I could find from DOE was 2,515,322 vehicles registered in Ireland, that was 2014. 28,000 odd were exempt, enough to discard for a rough estimate here.
• The average mileage for all cars (in 2005) was 16,894km. Could only find split Petrol/Diesel figures for 2011 but presuming 70% diesel the average works out similar.
• The average fuel consumption was 4.89 (Diesel)- 5.49l (Petrol) in l/100km according to the CSO. About 20km/litre.

TLDR: The revenue generated by each 10c on a litre of fuel would net about €212,000,000. Tax would need to be in excess of 50c a litre to offset the income at present (just over €1.1bn). At 16,900km a year and 20km/litre or ~5l/100km that's an average of €422 per vehicle.

Realistically, about €300 per 10,000km on average.

Nice work. That shows how insanly expensive the road tax rates are...

To comment on the number - I would like to see a diesel that averages to 4.89 when doing 16kkm a year... Or a petrol that that achieves 5.49l - this is already Prius territory.

Those figures are more than unrealistic. With the fleet that's there now, 6l/100 for diesel and 8.5l/100km for a petrol is more realistic...

That brings the tax figure down to around €0.35/l...

biko

So Renua didn't get in to power. That kills this thread.