Motor Tax To Be Abolished by Renua

bear1

Would it be fairer if instead of abolishing the tax and killing us with huge fuel costs, that the government gives drivers the option from the year 2000 if their car is cc or co2 based?
Fairer no?

Captain Chaos

bear1 wrote: »

Would it be fairer if instead of abolishing the tax and killing us with huge fuel costs, that the government gives drivers the option from the year 2000 if their car is cc or co2 based?
Fairer no?

Exactly, the people that use the roads more pay more. I think that's fair. A high emissions car will natuarally use more fuel and have worse fuel economy anyway. Why be stung twice.

We should adopt the UK model.

bear1

It just goes to show how badly implemented the whole thing was.
It should have been announced that cars from lets say the year 2000 would have a choice which system would be used and those after 08 are solely co2.
The way they did it effectively decreased the value of cars sold prior to this.
Idiotic

Seweryn

Captain Chaos wrote: »

We should adopt the UK model.

We adopt (almost) everything from the UK. Why? I don't know...

I am for adopting the Polish model. No annual car tax and pay as you go...

Sam Russell

Unfortunately most of the CO2 figures given by the manufacturers are fiction. Apart from VW who admit fiddling the figures, the manufacturers were allowed to 'prepare' their cars by taping over panel gaps, removing fittings, and other tricks to reduce the figures.

I find it hard to believe the consumption figures for some of the BMW and Mercedes diesels.

Definitely all cars should be allowed to choose CO2 or CC method of assessment. Doing the tax charge of fuel will only make diesels pay less unless diesel takes a bigger hit.

boardsuser1

Sam Russell wrote: »

Unfortunately most of the CO2 figures given by the manufacturers are fiction. Apart from VW who admit fiddling the figures, the manufacturers were allowed to 'prepare' their cars by taping over panel gaps, removing fittings, and other tricks to reduce the figures.

I find it hard to believe the consumption figures for some of the BMW and Mercedes diesels.

Definitely all cars should be allowed to choose CO2 or CC method of assessment. Doing the tax charge of fuel will only make diesels pay less unless diesel takes a bigger hit.

Not necessarily. When diesels need repair work done they are generally more expensive. That means more tax again for the fcuking government.

Victor

Seweryn wrote: »

I am for adopting the Polish model. No annual car tax and pay as you go...

Like property tax, motor tax is an asset tax. If you own something (house, commercial building, vehicles, TV, bank card), you pay a tax, with certain exemptions.

One of the principals of a tax system is that it should be progressive. Those able to pay more should pay more. Those with two cars should pay more than those with one. Your system would, in general, disproportionately benefit people who are better of.

jimgoose

Victor wrote: »

Like property tax, motor tax is an asset tax. If you own something (house, commercial building, vehicles, TV, bank card), you pay a tax, with certain exemptions.

One of the principals of a tax system is that it should be progressive. Those able to pay more should pay more. Those with two cars should pay more than those with one. Your system would, in general, disproportionately benefit people who are better of.

You think a car is the same sort of asset as a house, do you? That's why those with functioning minds consider the left to be looderamawns.

Victor

jimgoose wrote: »

You think a car is the same sort of asset as a house, do you? That's why those with functioning minds consider the left to be looderamawns.

I am simply stating the status quo.

CiniO

Seweryn wrote: »

We adopt (almost) everything from the UK. Why? I don't know...

I am for adopting the Polish model. No annual car tax and pay as you go...

What do you mean by "pay as you go" here?

Seweryn

CiniO wrote: »

What do you mean by "pay as you go" here?

Pay all fees and taxes in fuel cost, only. Same as in countries like Poland.

listermint

Victor wrote: »

Like property tax, motor tax is an asset tax. If you own something (house, commercial building, vehicles, TV, bank card), you pay a tax, with certain exemptions.

One of the principals of a tax system is that it should be progressive. Those able to pay more should pay more. Those with two cars should pay more than those with one. Your system would, in general, disproportionately benefit people who are better of.

I dont see how, I could own 10 cars and still not be 'well off' The person that uses the roads most often is the highest user so thus plainly should pay more.

Why should in your view someone who is 'well off' that buys a brand new Land Rover Discovery including the incredible VAT VRT on that car and drives it 10 miles up the road everyday be punished more than someone who does 40,000 miles a year.

What is 'progressive' in your view about that? It seems you believe that these 'wealthy people' are paying no tax when to the contrary the pay alot.

CiniO

listermint wrote: »

I dont see how, I could own 10 cars and still not be 'well off' The person that uses the roads most often is the highest user so thus plainly should pay more.

Why should in your view someone who is 'well off' that buys a brand new Land Rover Discovery including the incredible VAT VRT on that car and drives it 10 miles up the road everyday be punished more than someone who does 40,000 miles a year.

What is 'progressive' in your view about that? It seems you believe that these 'wealthy people' are paying no tax when to the contrary the pay alot.

Motortax or roadtax idea is wrong from scratch.

Road network is something that provides wellbeing in modern world for every single person living in the country, and there is no reason why only vehicle owners should pay a tax to maintain theose roads.
Roads should be funded from general taxpayer money, so everyone should contribute - not only vehicle owners.

CiniO

Seweryn wrote: »

Pay all fees and taxes in fuel cost, only. Same as in countries like Poland.

I asked purposely, as in Poland taxes on fuel are among the lowerst in the EU.
In fact most of the times, Poland is the country with cheapest fuel in EU.

There used to be motortax in form very similar like in Ireland (but obviously not with such crazy high rates), but it was abolished in mid 90's.

There is a myth that when abolishing it, they put it into cost of fuel.
That's a big misconception. Nothing like that happened. Fuel tax wasn't increased after motortax was abolished.

All that happened, was that motortax was collected by local authorities for purpose of maintaining roads. After motortax abolition, to compensate for local authorities so they could still have money to pay to fix the roads, part of money from fuel tax was paid to them. But what's important is that it didn't cause fuel tax to increase for people.

Currently Poland seems like paradise for motoring comparing to Ireland.
Cheapest fuel in the EU, no motortax, insurance system biased to protect drivers not insurance companies like in Ireland, which results in very low insurance premiums and no silly problem with insuring a vehicle like here.

Only problem there are low salaries which cause purchase of cars much more expensive than for people in Ireland. But I'd imagine you can't have everything.

listermint

CiniO wrote: »

Motortax or roadtax idea is wrong from scratch.

Road network is something that provides wellbeing in modern world for every single person living in the country, and there is no reason why only vehicle owners should pay a tax to maintain theose roads.
Roads should be funded from general taxpayer money, so everyone should contribute - not only vehicle owners.

Right.. So how do we pay for it then in your Utopia of removing the concept of a vehicle tax ..

I mean i understand what you are saying but the realities of it are utter nonsense in practical terms.

CiniO

listermint wrote: »

Right.. So how do we pay for it then in your Utopia of removing the concept of a vehicle tax ..

I mean i understand what you are saying but the realities of it are utter nonsense in practical terms.

The same as any other country which doesn't charge road/motor tax.

From general tax collected by the government in various taxes, the same way schools, hospitals, public services, etc are funded.

colm_mcm

You can't really compare countries fairly when expenditure on things like social welfare etc that impact what needs to be taken in with tax differs from country to country.

bear1

CiniO wrote: »

I asked purposely, as in Poland taxes on fuel are among the lowerst in the EU.
In fact most of the times, Poland is the country with cheapest fuel in EU.

There used to be motortax in form very similar like in Ireland (but obviously not with such crazy high rates), but it was abolished in mid 90's.

There is a myth that when abolishing it, they put it into cost of fuel.
That's a big misconception. Nothing like that happened. Fuel tax wasn't increased after motortax was abolished.

All that happened, was that motortax was collected by local authorities for purpose of maintaining roads. After motortax abolition, to compensate for local authorities so they could still have money to pay to fix the roads, part of money from fuel tax was paid to them. But what's important is that it didn't cause fuel tax to increase for people.

Currently Poland seems like paradise for motoring comparing to Ireland.
Cheapest fuel in the EU, no motortax, insurance system biased to protect drivers not insurance companies like in Ireland, which results in very low insurance premiums and no silly problem with insuring a vehicle like here.

Only problem there are low salaries which cause purchase of cars much more expensive than for people in Ireland. But I'd imagine you can't have everything.

One thing I would say though that is annoying is that a car must constantly be insured and you've no possibility to pay for it per month.
You need to pay a tax when you buy a car off of someone and take a day off work just to queue and do it.
Tolls are fairly expensive I find and there are ideas of bringing in a vignette system for all cars so it is a form of motor tax being applied.
The rest is fine though.

bear1

Btw maybe this and the other motor tax thread should be merged? They are essentially the same thread.

CiniO

bear1 wrote: »

One thing I would say though that is annoying is that a car must constantly be insured and you've no possibility to pay for it per month.

Agree.
There should be an option in Poland to declare vehicle off the road and don't pay insurance for period of no use.
But current system is there to prevent people from driving uninsured, and afaik it works fairly well with very few cases of uninsuerd cars on the roads.
Monthly payments is indeed what insurers should offer. I know some offer quartely payments, which is already an improvement as a while ago it was only full premium, or 2 half a year installments.

You nee to pay a tax when you buy a car off of someone and take a day off work just to queue and do it.

Indeed private purchase tax of 2% of vehicle value isn't great.

Tolls are fairly expensive I find and there are ideas of bringing in a vignette system for all cars so it is a form of motor tax being applied.
The rest is fine though.

Vignette system is only meant to cover tolled motorways, so this is to get rid of motorway toll gates and queues associated with them at peak times. There won't be any additional tolls.

daithimac

I'd like to stop paying road tax along with tv licence, all forums of income tax, VAT on good and services, Excise duty, Taxes collected for services I don't use and be given goods free of charge.
Then I wake up and realise that I'm an adult and I live in the real world and have responsibilities to contribute towards the type of country I would wish to raise a family in and not just have everything handed to me.

This type of policy is designed to appeal to a very selfish immature type of voter of which unfortunately there are many.

CiniO

daithimac wrote: »

I'd like to stop paying road tax along with tv licence, all forums of income tax, VAT on good and services, Excise duty, Taxes collected for services I don't use and be given goods free of charge.
Then I wake up and realise that I'm an adult and I live in the real world and have responsibilities to contribute towards the type of country I would wish to raise a family in and not just have everything handed to me.

This type of policy is designed to appeal to a very selfish immature type of voter of which unfortunately there are many.

You missed the point a bit.
We can't have a tax free country, as there needs to be some money for public expediture.

But there's no reason to tax horrendous rates on items of everyday use like vehicles. There's actually no need to tax them at all.
The same as your clothes, your washing machine, your bicycle or your surfboard, doesn't require annual tax on it.

Victor

listermint wrote: »

It seems you believe that these 'wealthy people' are paying no tax when to the contrary the pay alot.

Other than the specific examples I gave, what taxes are there on wealth?

jimgoose

Victor wrote: »

Other than the specific examples I gave, what taxes are there on wealth?

What do you mean by "wealth"? I pay about €30,000 p.a. in tax - no, I'm not talking about VAT and that kind of bullsh1t - and I am far from wealthy. It seems to get me the privilege of listening to crap from people who would otherwise have cowld, hungry sucks on them if they had to provide that which they consume. It does grate slightly at times.

PurvesGrundy

daithimac wrote: »

I'd like to stop paying road tax along with tv licence, all forums of income tax, VAT on good and services, Excise duty, Taxes collected for services I don't use and be given goods free of charge.
Then I wake up and realise that I'm an adult and I live in the real world and have responsibilities to contribute towards the type of country I would wish to raise a family in and not just have everything handed to me.

This type of policy is designed to appeal to a very selfish immature type of voter of which unfortunately there are many.

How does someone wanting a change in the system to make it work better make a 'selfish immature voter'? Nobody is against the idea of paying a motor tax, just not in its present form. There is no logic to a system that on pre 2008 cars multiplies to crazy levels the further you get up in cc's, or a post 2008 Co2 system that has top bands which are simply too high and result in none of those cars being sold, with zilch revenue for the government and no nice motors for future generations to enjoy. If someone has done well for them self in this country, they should be entitled to purchase a V8 Mustang and pay at the pumps for the privilege rather than a lifetime tax rate of 2,350 on the car. The present system prevents such choice with silly rates that no person can justify.

The present system is completely antiquated and bears no relevance to the impact of individual motorists, whether it is linked to the cars they own or the driving they do.

bear1

Is there motor tax in the U.S.?

CiniO

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

How does someone wanting a change in the system to make it work better make a 'selfish immature voter'? Nobody is against the idea of paying a motor tax, just not in its present form. There is no logic to a system that on pre 2008 cars multiplies to crazy levels the further you get up in cc's, or a post 2008 Co2 system that has top bands which are simply too high and result in none of those cars being sold, with zilch revenue for the government and no nice motors for future generations to enjoy. If someone has done well for them self in this country, they should be entitled to purchase a V8 Mustang and pay at the pumps for the privilege rather than a lifetime tax rate of 2,350 on the car. The present system prevents such choice with silly rates that no person can justify.

The present system is completely antiquated and bears no relevance to the impact of individual motorists, whether it is linked to the cars they own or the driving they do.

I am, as per previous posts.

PurvesGrundy

CiniO wrote: »

I am, as per previous posts.

What if it was a fairer system like in the UK?

I know it is one I would not be opposed to. Either that or adding 10 cent to fuel would be at least far more progressive than what we have now.

dr.fuzzenstein

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

What if it was a fairer system like in the UK?

I know it is one I would not be opposed to. Either that or adding 10 cent to fuel would be at least far more progressive than what we have now.

What are people smoking that they think it will be 5-10 cent? seriously!? And an answer would be nice, either link to figures or substance smoked.

CiniO

PurvesGrundy wrote: »

What if it was a fairer system like in the UK?

I know it is one I would not be opposed to. Either that or adding 10 cent to fuel would be at least far more progressive than what we have now.

If it was fairer system, I would still be against it, but less than now

In short - I'm Polish and lived there in Poland over 20 years before I moved here to Ireland.
In Poland we don't have motortax, so my logic is really simple: "In Poland I didn't have to pay any motortax on my car, while in Ireland I do have to pay it. That means Ireland is doing something wrong, as according to my experience it's possible to live without motortax".
This logic is really as simple as that.

I also understand most other posters here, who are Irish and lived here all their lives.
They always paid motortax, their fathers, and grandfathers paid it, so they don't see any other way around it.

It's quite interesting psychology issue I'd say.