I don't want to stay

catbear

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

So because some people survive religious indoctrination and come out normal, there must be nothing wrong with state sanctioned religious indoctrination in secular countries? Is that what you are trying to say? Please leave my relationship out of this, I don't know if you are trying to be intentionally offensive with your ridiculous posts, or if you are simply a product of a education that spent too much time on religion and not enough on reasoning.

I think you just want to go back home. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, you don't need an excuse.

Canadel

catbear wrote: »

I think you just want to go back home. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, you don't need an excuse.

That still doesn't mean the excuse they're citing is not entirely valid.

listermint

I don't really get this thread at all. It appears the OP literally has no personal experience of the school system.

I'm born and raised a catholic brought to church most of my life not by over bearing catholics just run of the mill parent mother rarely went but on occasions usual Irish jazz.

Went through the school system same as my partner and all my friends

Roll forward the clock this year I have 5 humanist wedding's to go to including my own. Last year we broke the world stigma with equal marriage rights for gay people.

I mean what more does the op want . As has already been stated I think they just want to go home . A friend is married to a kiwi went home to live came straight back again hated the way his morman parents where ....


Swings and roundabouts op but you can't blame over bearing authoritarian cathoilc educators they don't exist anymore.

Cabaal

listermint wrote: »

I mean what more does the op want .

To not have indoctrination and exclusion in school system?, I'm Irish, grew up in Ireland and this is what I want also.
Its really not alot to ask.

Swings and roundabouts op but you can't blame over bearing authoritarian cathoilc educators they don't exist anymore.

Don't exist? I think you're wrong about that,
Over 92% of our schools still remain catholic ethos so they very much do exist.

As we already know a school can turn around to a parent and tell the parent that they (the parent) cannot opt their child out of the schools religion classes in such a school.

Only when the schools stance on the matter was plastered all over the media did the school change their decision,

We've also had catholic ethos schools refuse to allow pregnant teenagers to attend school saying they did not accept "such girls".

A backwards mindset still very much exists in many a catholic ethos schools in Ireland, that is without question. To say otherwise is just white washing the issue. The op has legitimate concerns, many of which I share myself.

I've spoken to many teachers in catholic ethos schools over the years, while some have no interest in the religious education and do it because they have. Others see the 10% of school time wasted on communion prep at primary level as not a big deal,

listermint

Cabaal wrote: »

To not have indoctrination and exclusion in school system?, I'm Irish, grew up in Ireland and this is what I want also.
Its really not alot to ask.



Don't exist? I think you're wrong about that,
Over 92% of our schools still remain catholic ethos so they very much do exist.

As we already know a school can turn around to a parent and tell the parent that they (the parent) cannot opt their child out of the schools religion classes in such a school.

Only when the schools stance on the matter was plastered all over the media did the school change their decision,

We've also had catholic ethos schools refuse to allow pregnant teenagers to attend school saying they did not accept "such girls".

A backwards mindset still very much exists in many a catholic ethos schools in Ireland, that is without question. To say otherwise is just white washing the issue. The op has legitimate concerns, many of which I share myself.

I've spoken to many teachers in catholic ethos schools over the years, while some have no interest in the religious education and do it because they have. Others see the 10% of school time wasted on communion prep at primary level as not a big deal,

Hey I'm all for removing the church aspect out of the schools and making more secular and tbh I think that is going to happen its becoming more visible.

But also have to face the reality alot of these 'catholic' schools don't even have brothers or nuns left in them more often than not they are run more like community schools in terms of so called doctrine yes the entry system needs to change and soon.

But Franky I firmly believe the OP just wants to go home.

Thats how it reads to me.

looksee

listermint wrote: »

Hey I'm all for removing the church aspect out of the schools and making more secular and tbh I think that is going to happen its becoming more visible.

But also have to face the reality alot of these 'catholic' schools don't even have brothers or nuns left in them more often than not they are run more like community schools in terms of so called doctrine yes the entry system needs to change and soon.

But Franky I firmly believe the OP just wants to go home.

Thats how it reads to me.

And the highlighted sentence above just shows how little you know about the realities of much current Irish education, or the system.

Whether or not Kiwi just wants to go home is pure speculation on your part, and irrelevant to the discussion.

listermint

looksee wrote: »

And the highlighted sentence above just shows how little you know about the realities of much current Irish education, or the system.

Whether or not Kiwi just wants to go home is pure speculation on your part, and irrelevant to the discussion.

Ah right I didn't actually go through it at all. The only remnants of the past in most schools is a couple of board members. There isn't this mass group of brothers and priests teaching be a bit factual will you.

There is no brainwashing going on here as I said already I'm going to 5 humanist wedding's his year I must be living in some different Ireland where people don't go to mass don't get married in catholic churches and choose you know do your own thing

smacl

listermint wrote: »

Ah right I didn't actually go through it at all. The only remnants of the past in most schools is a couple of board members. There isn't this mass group of brothers and priests teaching be a bit factual will you.

There is no brainwashing going on here as I said already I'm going to 5 humanist wedding's his year I must be living in some different Ireland where people don't go to mass don't get married in catholic churches and choose you know do your own thing

Having gone to one Catholic school some years ago doesn't exactly give you the expertise to make broad statements about all Catholic schools, as you haven't been to them nor know how they work. You're simply extrapolating on personal experience which is anecdotal at best. At the same time it is well documented that many parents are either being excluded from Catholic run state funded schools or unreasonably coerced into taking religious instruction for a religion that they're not part of.

FWIW, the number of humanist weddings you attend doesn't really further your knowledge of the Irish education system either. It is simply an indicator that many people are turning away from the Catholic church in later life, despite the best efforts of the church to forcefully inculcate religious belief in young children.

looksee

listermint wrote: »

Ah right I didn't actually go through it at all. The only remnants of the past in most schools is a couple of board members. There isn't this mass group of brothers and priests teaching be a bit factual will you.

There is no brainwashing going on here as I said already I'm going to 5 humanist wedding's his year I must be living in some different Ireland where people don't go to mass don't get married in catholic churches and choose you know do your own thing

None of us is being other than 'factual'. You are the only person who has brought up the notion of schools being full of nuns and brothers. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Firstly lay people are just as capable of indoctrination as nuns and brothers; primary school teachers have to have a (Catholic issued) certificate showing their ability to teach RC faith to get a job in a Catholic primary school. And secondly the Board of Management is enabled by the school Patron, the RC church in the vast majority of cases, the Patron has the last word on anything, and is specificially there to ensure that the religious ethos of the school is maintained. The Board of Management only exists if the Patron wishes it.

The fact that you are going to so many humanist weddings highlights to some extent the lack of enthusiasm among the population for this RC-centric education system.

haveringchick

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Perhaps after some years out of the country they thought it wasn't still stuck in a 1930s time-warp in the 21st century? how silly of them.



Happy memories of everyone I expect, except for the "This is a catholic country, get used to it or f off" internet blowhards.

But her OH unless they were marooned on a desert island must have been in touch with his family, were there no visits home? None?
Plus you don't just forget what your family are like, your entire teenage years, the pressure, the constraints, the twitching curtains.
It's not Catholicsm. The Catholicsm is gone
It's our culture
It's who we are
Unless you've lived in proper rural Ireland you can't comment
There was no reason for thinking it would have changed
And no excuse for not knowing before hand that it hadn't

jimd2

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I've seen homework for my nephew in primary school in Clare. It was "Write a list of the things you are grateful to god for having." One can only imagine what pernicious **** the teacher was pushing in addition to that bull****. On the other hand, I have two friends who teach in primary schools and spend no time on religion. If forced to they read a few passages from the bible once a term that are of historical interest. It really is the luck of the draw, but there's no point in pretending that a substantial portion of Irish schools are run by true believer.

I agree and in all professions there are huge variations in approach, experiences (including the medical profession as we saw this week).

The OP made a statement alleging there was a strong possibility of her son being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. and then went on to talk about 'witch' trials.:eek:

I am once again asking for some example in recent years in the locality the OP lives in or, in fact, from anyone anywhere in Ireland where this stuff has been trotted out by the teachers in Irish schools.

I know that we dont know everything that goes on in the classroom and I appreciate that but as I said earlier I am really really interested on where the OP got that impression.

Personally I think the OP should stick it out if this is the only reason for wanting to leave. Your lives should not be centered and focused on just how the child's relatively brief period in school goes. Your overall lives and future is a much bigger factor.

catbear

What I don't I believe is that this issue would make someone pack up and move their family to the other side of the world. When I left the southern hemisphere it was for multitude of reasons. If I said to my Kiwi friends I'm leaving just because in principle I'm not a monarchist and I can't accept the Queen as head of state they'd laugh at me. None of them are monarchists either but it doesn't stop them living there.

Hotblack Desiato

haveringchick wrote: »

But her OH unless they were marooned on a desert island must have been in touch with his family, were there no visits home? None?
Plus you don't just forget what your family are like, your entire teenage years, the pressure, the constraints, the twitching curtains.

What's that got to do with schools?

It's not Catholicsm. The Catholicsm is gone

>90% of primary schools under RCC control says otherwise.
Third level institutions employing RC clergy using taxpayer funds says otherwise.
8th Amendment says otherwise.
Pubs closed on Good Friday says otherwise.
Etc.

It's our culture
It's who we are
Unless you've lived in proper rural Ireland you can't comment

How supremely arrogant.
The education system here is a relic of the past, it is NOT a reflection of Irish people today and how they live and want to live.
Gay marriage legalised, more than 1/3 of all marriages (and growing fast) are now non-church, mass attendance going off a cliff. That is Ireland today.
Like I said, the system reflects a time-warp of how Irish culture used to be, and who Irish people used to be, 80 and 90 years ago.

There was no reason for thinking it would have changed
And no excuse for not knowing before hand that it hadn't

So you've nothing constructive to offer. "Get used to it or F off", then, is it?

alan partridge aha

Head back home, oh and put Ray D'Arcy in your hand luggage, he should fit. Good luck.

Icepick

Kudos for not willing to put up and shut up.

Things are slowly but surely improving:
Rule prioritising religion classes in primary schools abolished

Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan has abolished a 50-year old official rule which gives religion classes a privileged status at primary level, paving the way for a potential reduction in time spent on faith formation.

At present, 30 minutes of each primary school day is allocated to religious education - twice the amount of time devoted to subjects such as science or physical education.

Speaking at the Irish Primary Principals Network conference on Thursday, Ms O’Sullivan said the 1998 Education Act protects the right of schools to set aside reasonable time in each school day for subjects relating to the school’s ethos.

“But Rule 68 was a symbol. A symbol of our past, and not our future. The language in the Rule was archaic. And I’m glad it’s gone,” she said.

Ms O’Sullivan said she has also directed departmental officials to begin to identify other rules for rescinding.

“It is anachronistic for us to still look to a set of rules drafted in 1965, many of which will have been superseded by curricular or legislative changes,” she said.

Michael Barron, Equate executive director, said: “Rule 68 stated that religious instruction was by far the most important part of the curriculum. This rule was outdated and reflected neither 21st century Irish teaching practices or the reality of the diversity of our families and communities.”

also move somewhere more civilized with an educate together school

looksee

jimd2 wrote: »

The OP made a statement alleging there was a strong possibility of her son being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. and then went on to talk about 'witch' trials.:eek:

Well agreed the moving statues are a bit out of date, but all the others are still current. And the OP only went on to mention witch trials by saying that all the other stuff belonged with the time of witch trials. And she did not say anything about a 'strong possibility', she just did not want any possibility at all.

Personally I think the OP should stick it out if this is the only reason for wanting to leave. Your lives should not be centered and focused on just how the child's relatively brief period in school goes. Your overall lives and future is a much bigger factor.

I do in fact agree with this. But really the op's desire to stay in Ireland, or leave, is a bit irrelevant to the discussion, in spite of being the title of the thread. The discussion comes back to what she understands of the Irish education system, and she is not wrong. Whether it should be enough of an issue to force her to leave is another matter.

My eldest kids went through primary school (they are now in their 40s) in both a city religious school and in a small rural school. My youngest, much younger, attended a town convent primary and secondary school. My husband would be considered very traditional and religious, I was fading fast at that stage, but went along with seeing them through the various ceremonies of their childhood. They were generally given a good education, overlaid with a lot of nonsense -

'Sister says that there are devils living under the ground',

'Mrs X says that if two people who are not both Catholics get married the one who is not a Catholic will leave. Are you going to leave us Mum?' (child actually not unduly worried, but visit to school resulted in the teacher saying 'oh I did not realise there were any mixed marriages in the school, or I would not have said it' :rolleyes:)

'We are having a cake sale (thank you mothers) for the lourdes pilgrimage'

And the bane of my life - we are going to be in a concert for the Pioneers (somewhere up the country, a ramshackle thing that went on till 11 at night with young children up way past their bedtimes).

And they all attended Mass with their father every week, and said prayers every night.

And at the end of it? None of them are regular Mass goers, they all gave up around college age and are all perfectly capable of independent thought on the subject of religion. Even though the religion is still in the schools, I do think that there is a good deal more rationality now than there was.

So while I would like to see schools made equal and open to everyone, without the overlay of fantasy, and will do all I can to argue against the grip of the RC church on secular aspects of life, it is possible to survive this stuff. I don't think your child will be scarred for life by it; at most it is a lot of wasted time in school, and needs a bit of effort to clarify what is actual education and what is made-up stuff when they get home.

cnocbui

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Debt/GDP ratio for Ireland is now below 100%.

Australia's debt/GDP is much lower (huge country, lots of resources, not that many people to spend it on) but not going in the right direction and the backside has fallen out of the commodities markets.

Ireland's national debt is down, but that is forecast to be temporary:



Australia - 'not that many to spend it on'? That means more for each person :-)

The world is in a downturn and it's going to get a lot worse, Australia is probably approaching bottom, but it still is in a much better position than Ireland is. Per capita Gross National Income in Ireland is US$46,550, in Australia it is US$64,540.

The tax burden as a percentage of GDP for Ireland is 30.8. For Australia it is 25.8.

I did calculations of the tax on an income of €35,000 for a single person with two dependent children for both Australia and Ireland in 2015 using the 10 year average of the exchange rate using the Deloite and ATO (comprehensive) tax calculators so the results take into account PRSI, USC and Medicare.

In Ireland, the tax came to €6,695. For Australia it was €6,292. That is pretty close, but you have to spend it, so taking into account VAT at 23% and GST of 10%, your purchasing power in Ireland would actually be €21,795, while in Australia it would be €25,837.

So taking income and expenditure taxes into consideration, you would be €4,042 better off per year in Australia on an income of €35,000.

This doesn't take into account those sneaky extras the Irish government likes to add like the 'levies' on every form of insurance you pay.

Now the OP is from NZ. I am rather puzzled as to why she says they would be financially worse off there. The Tradingeconomics site gives the Personal tax rate for Ireland as 48, 45 for Australia and a tiny 33 for NZ. GST in NZ is 15%. This website allows for a cost of living comparrison between cities. I used Dublin and Auckland. Dublin is 6% more expensive than Auckland. Given an assumption that the income tax rate is a lot lower, I would think one would be far better off in Auckland, or NZ in general given the same income.

recedite

jimd2 wrote: »

The OP made a statement alleging there was a strong possibility of her son being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. and then went on to talk about 'witch' trials.:eek:

I am once again asking for some example in recent years in the locality the OP lives in or, in fact, from anyone anywhere in Ireland where this stuff has been trotted out by the teachers in Irish schools.

Are you for real? What do you think is supposed to happen at holy communion, if not "transubstantiation"? It is a basic doctrine. And first holy communion classes held inside schools are one of the main methods of RC indoctrination.
Even if the teacher does not teach about the likes of stigmata etc.. by endorsing and teaching as fact the religion which alleges such miracles, the child must assume these are also fact when hearing about them outside the school.

looksee wrote: »

'Mrs X says that if two people who are not both Catholics get married the one who is not a Catholic will leave. Are you going to leave us Mum?'

This one is still current, apparently. I have heard anecdotally that the phrase "those families who pray together stay together" is a favourite priestly quote in our local "parish".

magicbastarder

cnocbui wrote: »

Now the OP is from NZ. I am rather puzzled as to why she says they would be financially worse off there.
...
I would think one would be far better off in Auckland, or NZ in general given the same income.

this is the key point. you seem to be assuming the same income, but GNI per capita in ireland is 50% higher than in NZ; obviously one figure does not paint the entire picture, but it's a significant difference.

re debt and australia; australia's household debt per capita is nearly 50% higher than in ireland, and they're in a property bubble which would seem to be outstripping ours; several months ago, the median property price in sydney hit AUS$1m; i.e. around €660k; it was €430k at the peak in dublin (though this may have been the average rather than the median, and obviously house to apartment ratios may come into play.
i've several cousins living in australia, both born there and emigrated there, and it's fascinating to hear them talk about property and propound the 'things are different here' in the same way irish people were talking up until about 2007.

recedite

Anyway Kiwi, whether you decide to move to NZ or not, I would urge you not to let religion get between you and the OH. The churches would, if they could, break up a family, even a whole community, rather than lose a child to their influence. The Fethard incident is a remarkable piece of Irish social history.
Thankfully things have moved on a lot since then, and their pernicious influence has waned. I agree with other posters who say that little kiwi will be less influenced at school than you might suppose, especially with them having the invaluable asset of an alternative viewpoint at home which provides some balance.

Stealthfins

Hi Kiwi,
Have you thought of maybe talking to a therapist.

It sounds like you're maybe looking into all this too much.

A lot of people turn out ok and the influence of the church isn't as intense as it was back in the 80's.

My son is 15 and made up his own mind about God.
He doesn't believe in it.
He knows I have an interest in theology and mindfulness,but I never mentioned it or even spoke with him about it.

He's happy with his decision and so am I.

yqtwqxqm

Im an Athiest, the wife is a practising Catholic.
The kids have never had a problem and neither have we.
I see too many people just dying to be offended these days.

Idle Passerby

Im not a parent but it strikes me as slightly hysterical that parents dont have faith in their own childrens intelligence. They will inevitably form their own opinions regardless of what nonsence they are told in school. I know young minds are pliable and all that but most of us were told a magical man comes down a chimney once a year and yet it hasnt made a us population of die hard chimney worshippers.

I was brought up in a non-religious home.We werent 'taught' any belief. I understood by the time I was about 8 that my parents didnt believe what my teacher claimed we should. It didnt confuse or alienate me, it was just a case of 'some people are into this, my parents are not' and it did prompt me to wonder about what I thought personally.
Indoctrination of any kind is wrong and I think that goes for vehement denial that children be exposed to differing opinions.
Give kids some credit.

With the facebook comment from the elderly aunt, this goes for every subject, posting strongly held beliefs on social media will inevitably lead to learning that people you know disagree with those opinions. It may never have even cone up if it wasnt posted on social media.

smacl

Idle Passerby wrote: »

Im not a parent but it strikes me as slightly hysterical that parents dont have faith in their own childrens intelligence. They will inevitably form their own opinions regardless of what nonsence they are told in school.

But intelligence isn't wisdom, and as a parent, looking after the best interests of my children is not a matter of faith so much as research and reasoning.

Indoctrination of any kind is wrong and I think that goes for vehement denial that children be exposed to differing opinions.

As a parent, you inevitably teach your kids your own value system, which I suppose you could equate to indoctrination. For me this includes ideas like be kind, be fair, enjoy life, be inquisitive, participate where possible, try new things out, be honest (except when playing poker) etc... Unfortunately, this can fall foul of a Catholic education which teaches a mythology that cannot be questioned, and must be learnt and recited as truth even though it seems dubious if not down right ridiculous. The ethos and value system is archaic, and up until quite recently misogynistic, sectarian, and openly homophobic.

No problem exposing children to differing religious traditions, but in doing it is also worth exploring what those traditions involve, warts and all.

jimd2

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

Im an Athiest, the wife is a practising Catholic.
The kids have never had a problem and neither have we.
I see too many people just dying to be offended these days.

Well said

jimd2

recedite wrote: »

Are you for real? What do you think is supposed to happen at holy communion, if not "transubstantiation"? It is a basic doctrine. And first holy communion classes held inside schools are one of the main methods of RC indoctrination.
Even if the teacher does not teach about the likes of stigmata etc.. by endorsing and teaching as fact the religion which alleges such miracles, the child must assume these are also fact when hearing about them outside the school.

This one is still current, apparently. I have heard anecdotally that the phrase "those families who pray together stay together" is a favourite priestly quote in our local "parish".

Lesson number 1...attack the post not the poster.

The OP made a strong part of the original post the expectation that this stuff would be taught to the little one. I just asked for examples where this was happening. I take your point on transubstantiation but even that I have never heard mentioned from my children. I am still waiting for these examples from the OP, you or whoever of stuff like moving statues, stigmata etc being taught routinely or even occasionally in Irish schools.

The OP threw this out as part of a rant against Irish schools and Irish teachers and I am just asking for examples.

And to answer you first did at me....yes I am for real. As I said attack the post not the poster please.

haveringchick

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What's that got to do with schools?



>90% of primary schools under RCC control says otherwise.
Third level institutions employing RC clergy using taxpayer funds says otherwise.
8th Amendment says otherwise.
Pubs closed on Good Friday says otherwise.
Etc.



How supremely arrogant.
The education system here is a relic of the past, it is NOT a reflection of Irish people today and how they live and want to live.
Gay marriage legalised, more than 1/3 of all marriages (and growing fast) are now non-church, mass attendance going off a cliff. That is Ireland today.
Like I said, the system reflects a time-warp of how Irish culture used to be, and who Irish people used to be, 80 and 90 years ago.




So you've nothing constructive to offer. "Get used to it or F off", then, is it?

Actually what's arrogant is arriving to live in a foreign country amongst your husbands extended family and expecting them to change their way of life to accommodate your sensibilities, and the local school to change its ethos to accommodate your child, while pretending that you had no idea how it would be, despite your husband having spent his entire childhood rooted firmly in that very environment.
That's arrogance, frankly.

eviltwin

haveringchick wrote: »

Actually what's arrogant is arriving to live in a foreign country amongst your husbands extended family and expecting them to change their way of life to accommodate your sensibilities, and the local school to change its ethos to accommodate your child, while pretending that you had no idea how it would be, despite your husband having spent his entire childhood rooted firmly in that very environment.
That's arrogance, frankly.

Where did Kiwi say she wanted all that exactly?

She may be a newcomer to these shores but I'm born and raised here and I also feel,along with a large number of people,that the educational system doesn't reflect the reality of life in modern Ireland. Should we all just keep our mouth shut too?

cnocbui

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is the key point. you seem to be assuming the same income, but GNI per capita in ireland is 50% higher than in NZ; obviously one figure does not paint the entire picture, but it's a significant difference.

re debt and australia; australia's household debt per capita is nearly 50% higher than in ireland, and they're in a property bubble which would seem to be outstripping ours; several months ago, the median property price in sydney hit AUS$1m; i.e. around €660k; it was €430k at the peak in Dublin (though this may have been the average rather than the median, and obviously house to apartment ratios may come into play.
i've several cousins living in Australia, both born there and emigrated there, and it's fascinating to hear them talk about property and propound the 'things are different here' in the same way irish people were talking up until about 2007.

Housing, at first glance, certainly does appear to be the one big downside to Australia, i'll grant you, but it isn't quite what it seems.

Household/personal debt I think is irrelevant when comparing the financial cost/benefit because it is a matter of personal choice that an individual has control over. How much you might have chosen to take on in debt is irrelevant to me.

National debt is the biggie, because it is not optional. Governments will not give you a choice as to whether you take it on or when they will make you cough up to repay it. Ireland's national debt per capita is €44,731. If you really want to lose sleep and terrify yourself, work out how much that works out to for each taxpayer. Stuff it, i'll work it out...... that comes to €337,000 of national debt per Irish taxpayer. Australia's national dept per capita is €17,542, or about a third that of Ireland's.

Do you remember the debt crisis in Cyprus? It's my belief that at some point, the haircut option will be exercised in Ireland because the govt will never be able to tax the population enough by conventional means to make any meaningful impact on the incredible level of national debt. This means they will simply confiscate assets like bank deposits. Don't have any? They'll just tack on €70,000 to your mortgage. Death duties will become 90% of the estate.

Maybe if the govt could scrounge €100 B in back taxes from multinationals... fat chance.

Germany will never allow cancellation of Eurozone national debt. What has been foisted on Ireland, Greece, etc exceeds the ability of the recipients to repay. Just ask the IMF.

Now, to houses: Australians are stark raving mad. Complete loons. House prices there are unsustainable. The difference between there and here, though, isn't as much as you might think by my calculations. The trouble is, Irish house prices seem to me to be unrealistically low. They aren't what they should be so comparing current prices with Australia isn't straightforward.

Leaving Loon capital Sydney out of it and Dublin, let's take Brisbane and Cork. I recently was pricing home insurance and was rather shocked to discover that the replacement value of just the house was 130% of the current market value of the entire property. So if Irish house prices are less than the cost of building them, that is an unsustainabilty and loonishness in the other direction.

So it doesn't seem to me to be reasonable to compare market value. Construction cost seems more realistic. Using construction cost calculators for cork and Brisbane for a detached 3 bedroom bungalow of 118 m² the cost turns out to be €172,000 in Cork. For Brisbane it's €134,412. The difference is unsurprising given Australian houses are built to a low standard and don't have lots of expensive bits like insulated slabs, wall insulation, double glazing, thick walls or central heating, or an extra 13% of GST on materials.

So really, the housing cost differential looks to be quite exaggerated.

Talking about insulation and double glazing. Another thing I have considered is that Ireland has an average annual temperature of 10° C - for Brisbane it's 20.6° C. In Ireland you have to pay substantial heating costs to maintain a house temperature you get for free in Brisbane. Call it the hidden weather tax.

KingBrian2

cnocbui wrote: »

Housing, at first glance, certainly does appear to be the one big downside to Australia, i'll grant you, but it isn't quite what it seems.

Household/personal debt I think is irrelevant when comparing the financial cost/benefit because it is a matter of personal choice that an individual has control over. How much you might have chosen to take on in debt is irrelevant to me.

National debt is the biggie, because it is not optional. Governments will not give you a choice as to whether you take it on or when they will make you cough up to repay it. Ireland's national debt per capita is €44,731. If you really want to lose sleep and terrify yourself, work out how much that works out to for each taxpayer. Stuff it, i'll work it out...... that comes to €337,000 of national debt per Irish taxpayer. Australia's national dept per capita is €17,542, or about a third that of Ireland's.

Do you remember the debt crisis in Cyprus? It's my belief that at some point, the haircut option will be exercised in Ireland because the govt will never be able to tax the population enough by conventional means to make any meaningful impact on the incredible level of national debt. This means they will simply confiscate assets like bank deposits. Don't have any? They'll just tack on €70,000 to your mortgage. Death duties will become 90% of the estate.

Maybe if the govt could scrounge €100 B in back taxes from multinationals... fat chance.

Germany will never allow cancellation of Eurozone national debt. What has been foisted on Ireland, Greece, etc exceeds the ability of the recipients to repay. Just ask the IMF.

Now, to houses: Australians are stark raving mad. Complete loons. House prices there are unsustainable. The difference between there and here, though, isn't as much as you might think by my calculations. The trouble is, Irish house prices seem to me to be unrealistically low. They aren't what they should be so comparing current prices with Australia isn't straightforward.

Leaving Loon capital Sydney out of it and Dublin, let's take Brisbane and Cork. I recently was pricing home insurance and was rather shocked to discover that the replacement value of just the house was 130% of the current market value of the entire property. So if Irish house prices are less than the cost of building them, that is an unsustainabilty and loonishness in the other direction.

So it doesn't seem to me to be reasonable to compare market value. Construction cost seems more realistic. Using construction cost calculators for cork and Brisbane for a detached 3 bedroom bungalow of 118 m² the cost turns out to be €172,000 in Cork. For Brisbane it's €134,412. The difference is unsurprising given Australian houses are built to a low standard and don't have lots of expensive bits like insulated slabs, wall insulation, double glazing, thick walls or central heating, or an extra 13% of GST on materials.

So really, the housing cost differential looks to be quite exaggerated.

Talking about insulation and double glazing. Another thing I have considered is that Ireland has an average annual temperature of 10° C - for Brisbane it's 20.6° C. In Ireland you have to pay substantial heating costs to maintain a house temperature you get for free in Brisbane. Call it the hidden weather tax.

So your argument is the rich are paying too much tax in Ireland but you want to go to big business Australia because Ireland is not taxing the multinationals. Talk about double standards. Lets look at a better comparison. Are their more millionaires and billionaire's in Australia or Ireland before we start taxing everyone.