I don't want to stay

Gbear

I think the Irish seem a lot more catholic than they really are.

The brits scarcely even make the effort. The Irish are still in the phase of going through the motions.

Even 10 years ago when I was still in secondary school, almost nobody took religion seriously, even if they did actually more or less qualify as catholics.
Only a few really went for it, and people tended to see them as a bit weird.

I think you need to trust yourself and your kids to not get taken in by the waffle. It'll be like water off a duck's back in the end.
From a very early age I was fully aware what a load of bollocks religion was.
None of this wishy-washy "let kids grow up what they want to believe" sort of stuff from my dad.
If he wouldn't let me believe that gravity is powered by chocolate or that electricity is carried around by magic pixies, than ideas of equal or greater levels of wrongness, such as religious dogma weren't going to get any special treatment just because some fuzzy wuzzy kinds of people are too soft to really take a stance on their beliefs because they'll be called "intolerant" or whatever bollocks they parrot these days.

I don't think that's your biggest problem.
I for one can't imagine living in the state of permanent social and cultural isolation of the Irish countryside. I'd say if you sort that out (your OH's family can sod off :P) then you'll be much happier.

XR3i

follow your heart Kiwi

hmmm

Kids see through this stuff very early, there's a big difference between being "taught" and "learning". Most of the religion teachers really don't care, they are only doing it for a job. I'd prefer our kids not have to waste time sitting through these classes, but they'll be fine - and I remember it was always nice to get a break at school from the tough subjects.

It's unfortunately a typical Irish reaction to look for a quiet life when faced with rabid fundamentalists - it's why schools teach Irish and religion, and most people couldn't really care about either topic. But if it ever got to a stage where we thought kids were really being affected, there would be an outcry.

I'd actually be much more worried about kids if they grew up in a culture with an evangelical ethos - now that's properly dangerous. Talking about "trans-substantiation" is guaranteed to do more to turn kids off religion than anything else.

smacl

hmmm wrote: »

Kids see through this stuff very early, there's a big difference between being "taught" and "learning".

True, but would you want to send your children to a school where they taught their pupils that the world was flat and this fact was not open to debate? Having to tell your children that their teachers are spouting lies is not really what you want out of an education, particularly at primary level.

inocybe

smacl wrote: »

True, but would you want to send your children to a school where they taught their pupils that the world was flat and this fact was not open to debate? Having to tell your children that their teachers are spouting lies is not really what you want out of an education, particularly at primary level.

It's not what you want from education, but neither do you necessarily have to talk about lies. I always told my son that some people believe, some don't, and no-one can be sure. He was about 8 when he stopped believing in vampires, gods and the tooth fairy. Santa lasted the longest.

smacl

inocybe wrote: »

It's not what you want from education, but neither do you necessarily have to talk about lies. I always told my son that some people believe, some don't, and no-one can be sure.

What you have there in essence is closer to the line taken by Educate Together, and a long way from the ethos of many if not most Catholic schools, where dogma is still the order of the day. This dogma in my opinion goes on to become the foundation for an insular and xenophobic mindset for many. I rather doubt that the OP would be decided on quitting the country if religion was all just a bit of a laugh that some here seem to suggest.

Civil Joe

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

It is a bigger issue than just the school system, it probably seems a bit ridiculous to say that we are going home because of that, I'm not going to go too much into the more personal side of it, but as a small example of what I'm up against, a while ago I put up a post about secular parenting on Facebook and got a response from a great aunt of Little Kiwis 'I hope not Kiwi in IE, I was brought up with 'right thinking' and I hope you will do the same for Little Kiwi'. I'm not challenged or contradicted but I feel a general disapproval of the fact I'm not allowing Little Kiwi to be brought up Catholic. I know that many of you guys have probably also gone totally against your family's beliefs and norms and I don't want to minimise that in any way, but I think it's maybe easier to do when they are your family!

All other things weigh up pretty equal, the cost of living is worse back home but the weather is better. I don't dislike Ireland generally, just this side of it, but I know how different things would be if Little Kiwi were being brought up in New Zealand and all of this would be removed from our lives instantly if we moved back. Maybe I am just looking for an easy life when life isn't meant to be easy. Is it easier to stick when it's what you've grown up with do you think? It bothers me far more than OH, although he doesn't like the religious bollocks either. Any tips for coping long term before I throw in the towel?

I apologise if this sounds like it should be in the personal problem forum.

Stop being so precious. Failing that don't let the door hit your arse on the way out....

robindch

Civil Joe wrote: »

Stop being so precious. Failing that don't let the door hit your arse on the way out....

Joe - your next post will need to live up to your login or a moderator's boot will be intersecting your own bum.

Shrap

pH wrote: »

most of the nonsense just washes off - I was aware my parents didn't believe and I was being taught stuff which wasn't true, but I had to endure - made me the person I am today!

This. This was my experience also.......until I had kids of my own in a very rural area with only RCC schools within an hour (apart from the Steiner school). I think though that my growing up here as an atheist made it easier for me to see how little the religiosity rubs off.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

if it's not going to be all that difficult for Little Kiwi, then maybe I just need to find it within myself to grin and bear it.

You have hit the nail on the head here Kiwi. Sadly, it does come down to how much you as a parent are prepared to suck up. Little Kiwi will most likely grow up atheist, questioning and, if not inured, at least with enough anger at the enforced religiosity (among many other Irish shortcomings, such as cronyism) to last a lifetime. I could understand that you may not want this for your child. You can see over your years up here that it's a pretty marginalised position, but as someone else mentioned, it is also the front line of change in our country.

Recently, I have had reason to search around for a secondary education that may be better for my youngest than mainstream school. It has worked out that a taylored curriculum and a whole school approach to his learning/social issues will be preferable and the (nominally) Catholic school he's in is actually second to none in my area. RE is not on any sort of pedestal, the kids are allowed to dye their hair and wear piercings if they want to, and the communication standard from school staff is open and flexible.

I looked at the Steiner secondary school as an option though, and I can safely tell you that the bolloxology on their website was enough to form a large and lasting sinking feeling in my heart and stomach. I did not know whether I could cope with him being taught by a maths teacher who is into "sacred geometry". I did not think I could contain myself from throwing a huge wobbly if he was taught there were 12 senses instead of just the 5 that we can prove......even for my child, who struggles so much in mainstream school. Anti-vaxer parents and homeopathic nonsense are the order of the day in that place. So I think my feelings on exposing my kid to this philosophy are akin to your horror at exposing your's to the all pervasive Irish RCC education. I for one, could totally understand that "sucking it up" could prove too much for you , but I would do it if it was the best option for my son. With huge difficulty.

iguana

How does little Kiwi feel about school? Does he sit out of religion class now and if so is he the only child who does and how does he feel about it? When I was in primary in the 80s there were 3 children from Jehovah's Witness families who sat out of religious lessons and any other lesson that had religious themes, like a story in the English book about the crucifixion. In all honesty most of the class were fairly envious of them as they would go sit together and draw pictures or read their own books for pleasure while we had to do stupid classwork. They were clearly having a lot more fun than we were. I don't think it impacted on their ability to make friends with the rest of the class or their popularity, but they might tell you otherwise for all I know. It possibly helped that they were a trio, so weren't left out alone. If your son is the only one not taking the religious lessons it would be a lot harder.

Gbear

There's a lot to be said for challenging your kids with access to bad information and allowing them to develop a healthy mistrust for authority and their peers.

You don't learn critical thinking by being surrounded with a bunch of people who are right and agree with you.

So long as you're there for them to fall back to they'll be ok.

iguana

Shrap wrote: »

I did not think I could contain myself from throwing a huge wobbly if he was taught there were 12 senses instead of just the 5 that we can prove......even for my child, who struggles so much in mainstream school.

Off topic but I thought that the idea that we only have 5 senses is outdated and we're now believed to have 20-21. Things like a sense of balance, acceleration and temperature recognition are all considered senses, afaik. (At least that's what I saw on an episode of QI a few years back.:))

smacl

Gbear wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for challenging your kids with access to bad information and allowing them to develop a healthy mistrust for authority and their peers.

You don't learn critical thinking by being surrounded with a bunch of people who are right and agree with you.

So long as you're there for them to fall back to they'll be ok.

I take your point, but think it is flawed insofar that by extension, a staunchly Catholic education would lead to higher degrees of critical thinking than a more open multi-denominational education. I'd suggest the opposite is in fact true, and that critical thinking is nourished by exposure to a wide variety of belief systems, all of which are open to scrutiny.

Shrap

iguana wrote: »

Off topic but I thought that the idea that we only have 5 senses is outdated and we're now believed to have 20-21. Things like a sense of balance, acceleration and temperature recognition are all considered senses, afaik. (At least that's what I saw on an episode of QI a few years back.:))

Fair comment! My bias against woo-mongering may have resulted in throwing out baby with bath water, I fully admit that

Tell me how

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

Kiwi in IE wrote:

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

Thanks for calling. Have a safe trip.

evolving_doors

Better have them see what religion is about now, than have them discover religion for themselves for the first time when they leave home.

PopePalpatine

Tell me how wrote: »

Thanks for calling. Have a safe trip.

Have you actually got something to contribute beyond passive-aggressive drive-by posts?

Tell me how

PopePalpatine wrote:

Have you actually got something to contribute beyond passive-aggressive drive-by posts?

I don't feel I was passive aggressive.

haveringchick

I don't know what you imagine is going on in the school Kiwi or what people have told you is going on but it's nothing like you describe
I think it's sad that you don't know the day to day details of your child's school life
Perhaps the Principal would allow you to participate in some way?
Do you volunteer for Sales of Work sports events and such like?
My daughter is doing the Leaving and apart from Communion and Confirmation (and as you know you don't have to participate ) there was very little about religion and absolutely none in Secondary
The amount of time your little one spends in school is minimal really and yet you imply that Catholicsm stalks the child in a threatening way at every opportunity ?
Do you have any examples of how your child is being bombarded as you describe by religion?

eviltwin

I think a lot depends on the parents Kiwi. I grew up in a religious home so what I learned in school was reinforced at home and society as a whole so I grew up with a lot of fear and guilt. My 18 yr old
went to a Catholic school but we regularly had conversations at home where we discussed various things she had heard and decided they were a load of rubbish. She's always been free to believe what she wants but she has no time for it.

I totally understand your feelings on it, you want the education system to reflect your parenting not clash with it, but you will be far more influential on him than the school will.

Hotblack Desiato

iguana wrote: »

When I was in primary in the 80s there were 3 children from Jehovah's Witness families who sat out of religious lessons ... They were clearly having a lot more fun than we were.

Oh, I'm sure their life outside school more than made up for that There are a few fundie parents at our kids' CoI primary, I feel a bit sorry for their kids to be honest (but maybe they feel sorry for the godless kids growing up not fully human, with no hope or morals or any purpose in life... :pac: )

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Better have them see what religion is about now, than have them discover religion for themselves for the first time when they leave home.

You certainly don't need to be indoctrinated in school to know what religion is about.

ET would be far better than RC/CoI as they teach about all major religions (and non-belief also.)

The Dept. Ed has a draft syllabus for religion/ethics which would be similar but expect more resistance to that from the usual quarters soon.

iguana

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure their life outside school more than made up for that There are a few fundie parents at our kids' CoI primary, I feel a bit sorry for their kids to be honest (but maybe they feel sorry for the godless kids growing up not fully human, with no hope or morals or any purpose in life... :pac:

Oh well it was swings and roundabouts. We were jealous of them for getting to sit out of so much schoolwork but also horrified that they could never get presents and couldn't celebrate Halloween, Easter, the best parts of Christmas or even their own birthdays. But on the days where they would all solemnly swear to the teacher that they couldn't take part in the section of the Irish book we'd be doing over the next 2 weeks because it was the story of St Brigid. Then spend the next hour giggling over their crayons, it very almost seemed like a fair trade.

But for A&A little Kiwi, there is no "trade." Just skipped lessons and plenty of cultural celebrations that may well be even more fun in his house.

cnocbui

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

...

I apologise if this sounds like it should be in the personal problem forum.

I moved here from Australia. My daughter was born here. My son has been through the Irish education system from pre-school to College and is a perfectly sane and devout atheist. My daughter is half way through Secondary school and is also healthily atheist.

It's you who will determine how your children turn out, not the catholic education system.

That said, I'm out of here when it becomes practical. To be honest, having to learn Irish will cause far more grief for your children than any religious issues.

One of the motivations I have for leaving is the taxation and government charges issues, which are trending upwards and will continue to do so given the countries unsustainable and ever increasing level of debt.

catbear

I actually think being exposed in some small dose with religion in school is like an inoculation against full blown religion later in life. It's better to develop a healthy cynicism early in life rather than encountering and embracing religion full on during a personal adult crisis.
Even in the antipodes I've observed that secular schooling is no protection from later religiosity.

haveringchick

gctest50 wrote: »

Outstanding idea - should give them a little bell too

Over 80% of the population wearing ashes and ringing bells... I suppose it will be noise pollution ...

Gbear

smacl wrote: »

I take your point, but think it is flawed insofar that by extension, a staunchly Catholic education would lead to higher degrees of critical thinking than a more open multi-denominational education. I'd suggest the opposite is in fact true, and that critical thinking is nourished by exposure to a wide variety of belief systems, all of which are open to scrutiny.

I'd agree in principle.

In our case it'll probably be benign enough stuff though. At a certain cutoff the Catholic education will be lukewarm enough and there'll be so little general support for it that a kid would likely be challenged, but almost certainly not truly excluded.

Enough to promote healthy disagreement with teachers or your peers without being truly alienating, is my general thoughts.

Kiwi in IE

iguana wrote: »

How does little Kiwi feel about school? Does he sit out of religion class now and if so is he the only child who does and how does he feel about it? When I was in primary in the 80s there were 3 children from Jehovah's Witness families who sat out of religious lessons and any other lesson that had religious themes, like a story in the English book about the crucifixion. In all honesty most of the class were fairly envious of them as they would go sit together and draw pictures or read their own books for pleasure while we had to do stupid classwork. They were clearly having a lot more fun than we were. I don't think it impacted on their ability to make friends with the rest of the class or their popularity, but they might tell you otherwise for all I know. It possibly helped that they were a trio, so weren't left out alone. If your son is the only one not taking the religious lessons it would be a lot harder.

He doesn't sit out and would be the only one in his year if he did. There is another family in the school who are sitting their daughter out of communion this year. I'm meeting the mother for coffee on Monday to discuss. I made our position clear to the principal on enrolment and every year I have a meeting with the teacher and a 'preview' of the years religion book. I was told when we were weighing up our options of sitting out that the options are he goes to another class (same thing that happens to kids who are 'bold'), doesn't participate in the class/workbook but stays in the room or just participates. The school in fairness are lovely and Little Kiwi is happy there, is popular and has loads of friends. They tend to take the religion seriously and do it every day for a period. I was told that if we choose the other classroom/different workbook option that religion permeates the school day anyhow, so it will only be the standard curriculum part that he skips. I haven't sat him out so far, I don't really want him having to go to another class by himself as if he has misbehaved. If it is 'permeating the school day' anyway, what is the point in putting him through that? We will have him do alternative work next year when he hits 'communion year'. Apparently a huge amount of time is spend next year on religion and communion, I have heard other parents who are nominally Catholic, whose children have done it complain about how much time is wasted.

So far the text books have been silly, but apart from Angels visiting Mary in the night and asking her to accept being impregnated by God, not hugely worrying or offensive. Teach don't Preach have recently highlighted some garbage out of the later text books for the older classes, and provided links to the teachers guide for those years and some of it is horrendous. From next year on he will be sat out and doing other work still in the classroom while the rest do religion. I would be happy if there was a set time at beginning or end of day and no 'permeation' into other subjects, I would simply bring him in late/take him home early. I don't really feel as if I have a right to ask them to rearrange their whole schedule for us, it's not our fault that we are in this position, but nor is it theirs at the end of the day, they are just the unlucky ones of about 15 Catholic schools within reasonable distance that we picked! However this is something that I'm going to discuss with the other parent on Monday. There are 2 kids sitting out this year, the family I discussed who are also atheist and a Church of Ireland family. Next year when LK hits second class, he is the only one. No one sat out last year or the year before.

Little Kiwi frequently comes home and tell me what was discussed and I debunk anything that needs debunking. God made the world blah blah.

Kiwi in IE

haveringchick wrote: »

I don't know what you imagine is going on in the school Kiwi or what people have told you is going on but it's nothing like you describe
I think it's sad that you don't know the day to day details of your child's school life
Perhaps the Principal would allow you to participate in some way?
Do you volunteer for Sales of Work sports events and such like?
My daughter is doing the Leaving and apart from Communion and Confirmation (and as you know you don't have to participate ) there was very little about religion and absolutely none in Secondary
The amount of time your little one spends in school is minimal really and yet you imply that Catholicsm stalks the child in a threatening way at every opportunity ?
Do you have any examples of how your child is being bombarded as you describe by religion?

I thought I knew exactly what is going on in my child's school after discussing the issues at length with the principal and teachers, but it seems I was wrong and you know much better. Thanks for that, I'll discuss it with you from now on instead of the school.

KingBrian2

cnocbui wrote: »

I moved here from Australia. My daughter was born here. My son has been through the Irish education system from pre-school to College and is a perfectly sane and devout atheist. My daughter is half way through Secondary school and is also healthily atheist.

It's you who will determine how your children turn out, not the catholic education system.

That said, I'm out of here when it becomes practical. To be honest, having to learn Irish will cause far more grief for your children than any religious issues.

One of the motivations I have for leaving is the taxation and government charges issues, which are trending upwards and will continue to do so given the countries unsustainable and ever increasing level of debt.

Actually the debt has decreased over the last few years while it is important to have sustainable debt levels ruling out taxation altogether is not the best approach to tackling the problems in society. The Church could contribute more to the gvt.

smacl

catbear wrote: »

I actually think being exposed in some small dose with religion in school is like an inoculation against full blown religion later in life. It's better to develop a healthy cynicism early in life rather than encountering and embracing religion full on during a personal adult crisis.
Even in the antipodes I've observed that secular schooling is no protection from later religiosity.

Fair enough, but if you're inoculating against any debilitating or life threatening disease, you make sure what you inject is dead. Much as we don't go injecting our kids with live polio, there is a world of a difference between religious education and religious instruction. Nice analogy though....