I don't want to stay

Kiwi in IE

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

It is a bigger issue than just the school system, it probably seems a bit ridiculous to say that we are going home because of that, I'm not going to go too much into the more personal side of it, but as a small example of what I'm up against, a while ago I put up a post about secular parenting on Facebook and got a response from a great aunt of Little Kiwis 'I hope not Kiwi in IE, I was brought up with 'right thinking' and I hope you will do the same for Little Kiwi'. I'm not challenged or contradicted but I feel a general disapproval of the fact I'm not allowing Little Kiwi to be brought up Catholic. I know that many of you guys have probably also gone totally against your family's beliefs and norms and I don't want to minimise that in any way, but I think it's maybe easier to do when they are your family!

All other things weigh up pretty equal, the cost of living is worse back home but the weather is better. I don't dislike Ireland generally, just this side of it, but I know how different things would be if Little Kiwi were being brought up in New Zealand and all of this would be removed from our lives instantly if we moved back. Maybe I am just looking for an easy life when life isn't meant to be easy. Is it easier to stick when it's what you've grown up with do you think? It bothers me far more than OH, although he doesn't like the religious bollocks either. Any tips for coping long term before I throw in the towel?

I apologise if this sounds like it should be in the personal problem forum.

pH

As an atheist who was never baptised and went through the Irish school system years ago in much more unenlightened times, I think maybe you're making a little too much out of this - sure around first communion etc there's a little awkwardness, but most of the nonsense just washes off - I was aware my parents didn't believe and I was being taught stuff which wasn't true, but I had to endure - made me the person I am today!

Secondary school is far too much about teenage angst/rebellion/young love and the leaving cert for any child between 12 and 17 to think about religion

gctest50

Little Kiwi will probably be subject to much more of the crazy - the loopy ones probably have decided in their own heads that there are bonus points for converting people from mysterious far away lands

Even though there are plenty of fairly normal religious ones that know when to lay off, the loopy ones seem to be obsessed with the " must convert, must convert, must convert " - they'd put ISIS to shame

The_Pretender

In the last ten years alone things have come along so far with regards separate classes while relgion is bring taught etc. as said previously it's only a little awkward really around communion and confirmation. Are you in Dublin? If you are then it shouldn't really be much of a big deal, though if you're out in a rural area then I can see how it could be difficult.

If that's how you feel go for it. Do you want people to tell you that you're wrong to feel a certain way so you can complain about people telling you "how to feel"?

Kiwi in IE

pH wrote: »

As an atheist who was never baptised and went through the Irish school system years ago in much more unenlightened times, I think maybe you're making a little too much out of this - sure around first communion etc there's a little awkwardness, but most of the nonsense just washes off - I was aware my parents didn't believe and I was being taught stuff which wasn't true, but I had to endure - made me the person I am today!

Secondary school is far too much about teenage angst/rebellion/young love and the leaving cert for any child between 12 and 17 to think about religion

Did your parents have religious family/extended family? If so do you know how it was for them? You had atheist parents, I am the atheist parent! Half a world away from my atheist parents, who if they were here, would at least provide balance to the extended family belief systems. Although I do appreciate what you are saying about how it was for you, if it's not going to be all that difficult for Little Kiwi, then maybe I just need to find it within myself to grin and bear it.

endacl

How will you handle things when everybody expects LK to think of nothing but the Mighty All Blacks? What happens if he turns out to be arugbyist? How do you and your OH feel about the All Blacks?

Pluses and minuses everywhere.

magicbastarder

ah sure the rate at which this country has changed over the last 25 years, it'll be mandatory abortion soon, and catholics will have to wear ash on their foreheads permanently as a way of identifying themselves.

gctest50

magicbastarder wrote: »

.................. and catholics will have to wear ash on their foreheads permanently as a way of identifying themselves.

Outstanding idea - should give them a little bell too

Eugene Norman

I went to catholic school 18 years ago and religion was just an ethics class. More anti-American liberation theology than anything else. My dad was a communist, he generally liked those magazines when I brought them home ( they were accurate too).

And given that Ireland has produced a generation of voters who overwhelmingly voted for gay marriage the catholic ethos is hardly that strong.

Clearly though the op's fantasy about Catholic education and his largely superior views on the country he might be better off leaving.

Fleawuss

The personal cost of our not outgrowing our childhood as a Republic. I'm truly saddened to see your pain at having to endure the death grip of Irish theocracy. Its a rep roof to all of us who have failed to replace the daft nonsense of religion in our schools and hospitals. And the sad truth is thee are many in this country who would still vote against any political party that took on religion. Maybe there are signs of change with that Gaelscoil that was on the news but until that is the situation in every school it's not good enough.

I'm sorry at your frustration and the upset to your family. All I can say over my years is that it is always those left outside who change things for the better and it ends up a better place for everyone. I still don't forgive you the Haka btw.

Fleawuss

The personal cost of our not outgrowing our childhood as a Republic. I'm truly saddened to see your pain at having to endure the death grip of Irish theocracy. Its a reproof to all of us who have failed to replace the daft nonsense of religion in our schools and hospitals. And the sad truth is there are many in this country who would still vote against any political party that took on religion. Maybe there are signs of change with that Gaelscoil that was on the news but until that is the situation in every school it's not good enough.

I'm sorry at your frustration and the upset to your family. All I can say over my years is that it is always those left outside who change things for the better and it ends up a better place for everyone. I still don't forgive you the Haka btw.

Kiwi in IE

The_Pretender wrote: »

In the last ten years alone things have come along so far with regards separate classes while relgion is bring taught etc. as said previously it's only a little awkward really around communion and confirmation. Are you in Dublin? If you are then it shouldn't really be much of a big deal, though if you're out in a rural area then I can see how it could be difficult.

No no no not Dublin! Small town Ireland at it's finest

And this is it! We have only lived here because this is where OH's family live, and if what I see/hear around here wasn't often reinforced by issues raised in the National news, I would absolutely have put it down to small town crazies. I know well enough that there are plenty of back arse of nowhere places in NZ that resemble something out of The Deliverence as well. I try not to judge the country on where I am living, and I do acknowledge completely that in Dublin the very vibe/atmosphere feels different. I would have been happier here if we had settled in Dublin, I have no doubt, but it's still an unknown so deciding to sell up and move there is risky, if we are going to do that we might as well just bite the bullet and go with the known quantity of back home.

Hotblack Desiato

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light.

Speaking as an atheist brought up catholic - fire away, they deserve every bit of criticism they get and then some.
If the RCC hierarchy were directors of a company (rather than carrying out similar functions for a religious organisation) they'd mostly be in jail.
What they have done to the people of this country makes my blood boil when I think about it, yet even the likes of Tuam is a six-day wonder in the papers then forgotten about by the public and swept back under the carpet by the powers that be.
Unfortunately most politicians etc. are all part of the cult (or at least find it profitable to be seen as such).
What the catholic church has done, does now, and believes, is not normal and not just and should not be accepted or forgotten, and you'd be failing as a parent if you didn't ensure your children were aware of that, in the appropriate way and at the appropriate age. They need to know about this because it's part of our society still, whether your child(ren) can go to a non-RC school or not.

School principals are often depicted as very conservative as a group, some are, but just the other day it was reported that 85% want to have less class time spent on religion. Things are slowly changing, but as long as religion is a potential ground for sacking don't expect too many teachers or principals to be speaking out openly

As for grandparents or great-aunts etc well I wouldn't put much store in what they think, this is a very different country from the Ireland they grew up in and it's not ever going back.

Even if the only school options are RC, there is a marked difference in attitude and accommodations made for opting out of religion between different schools. Worth looking into assuming you have any sort of school choice at all.

Kiwi in IE

endacl wrote: »

How will you handle things when everybody expects LK to think of nothing but the Mighty All Blacks? What happens if he turns out to be arugbyist? How do you and your OH feel about the All Blacks?

Pluses and minuses everywhere.

Ah we'll be fine. He's well indoctrinated with that . Richie McCaw is his hero and he wants to be a professional rugby player. You've made me think of another positive of moving back now, he might actually develop the skills to fulfil his dreams back home because rugby practice won't be cancelled every week due to rain haha.

silverharp

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

I don't want my child constantly surrounded by religion and religious views on everyday issues. There is just no option in education and the general attitude seems to be that non religious people should just shut up and get on with it. I realise that I may sound pathetic, but I feel completely marginalised, like I have no right to decide what is best for my child in what is a private, family matter to be decided by parents.

I don't want to be constantly monitoring what he is being told in school for the next 11 years, because I know that they will be telling him all sorts of things that are inappropriate. I don't want to be constantly deciding whether or not he will be included in classes, activities and events with his friends because many of them are unsuitable. I don't want him being set apart constantly from everyone else in his class and learning therefore that people should be segregated according to religion. I don't want him being taught that the Catholic Churches view on issues such as abortion and relationships are reasonable positions to hold, because I think many of them are unethical, wrong, discriminatory and prejudice, but nor do I want to have to constantly paint the Catholic Church in a bad light. My ideal for bringing up my children was that when these issues arose, I would encourage them to think them through from an ethical perspective and come up with their own conclusions, but here I'm having to make sure I get in first constantly before the school does.

I don't want him being taught about totally insane concepts like transubstantiation, saints with 'stigmatas', relics, moving statues, holy healing tourism hotspots etc. To me this stuff belongs back with age of 'witch' trials.

It is a bigger issue than just the school system, it probably seems a bit ridiculous to say that we are going home because of that, I'm not going to go too much into the more personal side of it, but as a small example of what I'm up against, a while ago I put up a post about secular parenting on Facebook and got a response from a great aunt of Little Kiwis 'I hope not Kiwi in IE, I was brought up with 'right thinking' and I hope you will do the same for Little Kiwi'. I'm not challenged or contradicted but I feel a general disapproval of the fact I'm not allowing Little Kiwi to be brought up Catholic. I know that many of you guys have probably also gone totally against your family's beliefs and norms and I don't want to minimise that in any way, but I think it's maybe easier to do when they are your family!

I wouldnt over think it. Kids will always take their parents view on any issue and based on what I see kids in primary schools these days are only getting a very watery version of catholicism. and with all the debunking american christian videos on the net, its right at the level of primary kids so they can learn a bit of science and history along the way.

jigglypuffstuff

Kiwi in IE

I do agree with you on several points, however Ireland is in the turn regarding religion, and I think as time passes the separation of church and state will continue. At some point I would hope that the school system and church will also be separated.

I was always of the belief that religion should be an option, but not the only option... I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

In any event..perhaps you have your heart set on returning home..but might I suggest looking at the Educate together schools?? I think these might be more what you are seeking? Its what out lecturers believe is the future of Education here anyway

https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together

Best of luck if you decide to return home

jigglypuffstuff

Kiwi in IE

I do agree with you on several points, however Ireland is in the turn regarding religion, and I think as time passes the separation of church and state will continue. At some point I would hope that the school system and church will also be separated.

I was always of the belief that religion should be an option, but not the only option... I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

In any event..perhaps you have your heart set on returning home..but might I suggest looking at the Educate together schools?? I think these might be more what you are seeking? Its what out lecturers believe is the future of Education here anyway

https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together

Best of luck if you decide to return home

Bristolscale7

Moved here almost seven years ago. Partner is Irish. Had one condition: children had to accepted into an Educate Together or we stay put. Kids are in ET and are growing up with loads of cousins and relatives. Ireland certainly can be a much nicer place for a family than many parts of the u.s. Weather, well, it is grim.

The marriage vote was a huge deal. Keep that in mind. The priests' power is slowly being eroded.

Kiwi in IE

pone2012 wrote: »

Kiwi in IE

I do agree with you on several points, however Ireland is in the turn regarding religion, and I think as time passes the separation of church and state will continue. At some point I would hope that the school system and church will also be separated.

I was always of the belief that religion should be an option, but not the only option... I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

In any event..perhaps you have your heart set on returning home..but might I suggest looking at the Educate together schools?? I think these might be more what you are seeking? Its what out lecturers believe is the future of Education here anyway

https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together

Best of luck if you decide to return home

Closest ETs are about 30km away in either direction. I think my problem is that I can't stay living here (in small rural town) are obviously not as backward in urban areas. But I think if we are going to make a big move, I'd rather move to a known quantity at this stage.

I do acknowledge that things are changing and I have huge hopes for the generation who are now in their teens and early 20's. I truly believe they will be the generation that put religion in its rightful place (homes and churches). But I think that'll happen at some time between LK finishing with education and when OH and I reach retirement. The best we can hope for is a nursing home without a Catholic ethos, rather than a secular education for our kids.

inocybe

I have a teenager, he went to a rural primary school and has religious grandparents. In primary it all went over his head, and we have so many funny memories - we used to laugh at the religion book and the silly stories, his head was full of transformers back then and Megatron was more real to him than Jesus. He didn't do confirmation, he did a project of his choice during that time - he chose 'mythical creatures' but it ended up with a presentation on the alien lizard men. His secondary is nominally catholic but they don't even have any religion classes. Don't worry too much about imagining conflicts, it's going to be a lot of fun too 😇

marienbad

Are you being a bit too harsh on us maybe ? I grew up in the 50's and 60's and lost any belief in or respect for the Catholic Church by the time I was 13. The Ireland of today is just so different from then it may as well be on planet Zog.

And it is continuing to change at an astonishing rate , you are just witnessing the death throes of wounded animal , and like a wounded animal it lashes out at everyone and everything .

We just had the SSM referendum and already it is obvious the 8th Amendment is going to go in the next parliamentary cycle . Who would have believed that even 5 years ago.

As for my own kids ( and bearing in mind that my partner is catholic ) one is a cultural Catholic and three are profoundly atheist ( or is militant atheist the word the RCC commentariat seems to label them ?)

I never proselytised on behalf of my non- belief , but on the principle that atheism/agnosticism has its responsibilities also, I never denied it and when asked I gave and defended my opinion . The same is now happening with my grandkids and I can see the same outcome .

But I can understand if you don't want your kids in the frontline of these battles , I didn't have a choice growing up or when my kids were growing up so we had to fight the good fight .

On top of all that we would really miss your posts

Kiwi in IE

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Moved here almost seven years ago. Partner is Irish. Had one condition: children had to accepted into an Educate Together or we stay put. Kids are in ET and are growing up with loads of cousins and relatives. Ireland certainly can be a much nicer place for a family than many parts of the u.s. Weather, well, it is grim.

The marriage vote was a huge deal. Keep that in mind. The priests' power is slowly being eroded.

I was not very clever and got caught up in the romanticism of moving to Europe and therefore failed to research properly prior to deciding. Assumed Ireland was Catholic in name only, something like how the UK is Anglican. Didn't find out that every school within a 30km radius was religious until I was looking for a school to enrol LK. I have learnt a lot from that lesson.

The marriage vote was definitely a huge deal and made me feel more hopeful and positive. I need something like that every 6 months

Kiwi in IE

marienbad wrote: »

On top of all that we would really miss your posts

I'm talking about leaving Ireland, not Boards. I'll be here going 'Na Na Na Na Na' from NZ when during the lead up to repeal of 8th, Iona sue the state funded broadcaster and are given public funds because someone called them 'anti choice'.

And probably moaning about the things that drive me mad back home, like not being able to buy a decent house for under $600k while being paid the same amount of $ as we are currently in €.

marienbad

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I'm talking about leaving Ireland, not Boards. I'll be here going 'Na Na Na Na Na' from NZ when during the lead up to repeal of 8th, Iona sue the state funded broadcaster and are given public funds because someone called them 'anti choice'.

And probably moaning about the things that drive me mad back home, like not being able to buy a decent house for under $600k while being paid the same amount of $ as we are currently in €.

You can keep an eye on us through your ''five eyes programme'' . which I must say when I found out about it ,it really raised the hackles on my neck - typical anglo saxon WASP empire bull**** was my immediate gut reaction . My point is we all have our secrets and foibles .

Ireland , even small town Ireland is not the Catholic Church

Kiwi in IE

marienbad wrote: »

Ireland , even small town Ireland is not the Catholic Church

Very true, but they seem to have a lot of representatives and spokespeople in this area :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

pone2012 wrote: »

I wouldnt use such language as insane concepts...this is truly what some people believe in..regardless of what others may think

The fact that some people believe in them should not in any way be regarded as an endorsement of the sanity of the beliefs concerned.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If the RCC hierarchy were directors of a company (rather than carrying out similar functions for a religious organisation) they'd mostly be in jail.

Unless of course that company was a big semi-state or even a bank. We seem to have a knack in Ireland for punishing the small crimes and the little man while turning the real crooks into untouchable celebrities. The same applies to the RCC...

smacl

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I have reached a point where I am prepared to admit (including to myself) that we might have made a mistake moving to Ireland, and OH and I are talking a lot at the moment about going back to New Zealand.

Very sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you. Out of interest, what's little Kiwi's take on the situation? My feeling is that small town rural Ireland remains far more entrenched in its Catholicism than the large urban areas and will probably remain so for another generation, though can vary hugely from one place to the next. We're lucky enough to have got our kids into an educate together school in Dublin, and given that they're both unchristened 3rd generation atheists, I doubt we would have survived a staunchly Catholic rural school either. Possibly would have given NZ a shot if placed in such a situation.

Shermanator

I would have put religion way down the list of reasons not to live in Ireland.

Top of my list would be the weather - specifically the Rain.
Political corruption, poor judicial system, unfair taxes, Water charges, cronyism etc etc etc

However, I would have weighed all that against the positives such as the Irish people, pace of life, culture, general freedoms, non nanny state etc etc

Shermanator

I would have put religion way down the list of reasons not to live in Ireland.

Top of my list would be the weather - specifically the Rain.
Political corruption, poor judicial system, unfair taxes, Water charges, cronyism etc etc etc

However, I would have weighed all that against the positives such as the Irish people, pace of life, culture, general freedoms, non nanny state etc etc