Nazi memorabilia for sale in Dublin. Appropriate?

Tony EH

Palbear wrote: »

Mine.
The Nazis were murderers.
Maybe not all of them but certainly very many were.
Profiteering from selling their artefacts is not something I view favourably.

Why should anyone care about your "morals"?

What about Roman coins? Or Red Army medals? Or British Army decorations?

Do you think Trajan's column should be demolished? A monument that celebrates the complete extermination of a whole nation?

Or are your "morals" reserved only for one aspect of history?

Jawgap

Tony EH wrote: »

Why should anyone care about your "morals"?

What about Roman coins? Or Red Army medals? Or British Army decorations?

Do you think Trajan's column should be demolished? A monument that celebrates the complete extermination of a whole nation?

Or are your "morals" reserved only for one aspect of history?

Well if we're going down that route I've first dibs on the bronze reliefs on the Wellington monument

indioblack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Churchill was racist and anti Semitic therefore all of England is.

So pleased you've avoided sweeping generalisations.

steddyeddy

indioblack wrote: »

So pleased you've avoided sweeping generalisations.

Actually I'm just parodying the "Dev sent condolences" posts that are appearing here.

indioblack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually I'm just parodying the "Dev sent condolences" posts that are appearing here.

OK. Sorry.
Irony detector must be pretty low today!

Tony EH

indioblack wrote: »

If someone wanted a stick to beat the Free State with, DeValera supplied it.
As I recall the story, Dr. Hempel was a friend of DeValera. He was the representative of the German state in Dublin. I'm sure Herr Hempel would've understood if DeValera had done nothing when Hitler died.
Protocol is often advanced an excuse - but, for obvious reasons, protocol could have been overlooked in this case.

Why? The full extent of nazi wrongdoing hadn't been made clear in May 1945 and Dev was merely engaging in basic protocol, as did a number of other neutral nations IIRC.

This is largely the problem when talking to people about WWII, Hitler and nazi party. They think everybody was as "well versed" in the history as they think they are themselves.

Few people had any real idea what was going on in Poland or the Soviet Union. There were rumors, but that was it, largely. There was nothing confirmed and rumors were rife about EVERY nation during the war, propagated by every side.

It actually took quite a while before anything substantial was on the record and even then it was mixed with a lot of hearsay, circumstantial evidence, propaganda and even outright lies as is the normal route of things during a war. Then, after Nuremberg, nobody talked about it for nearly 40 years. Nowadays, everyone thinks they know everything about the nazis and WWII because they've read a book or two and saw a few History Channel programmes.

The simple fact is, during the war, you believed what you believed was correct and in an age without the internet, instant news reporting and 24 hour communication, that information was often hideously wrong.

So while there's quite a bit to beat DeValera with, his offering of condolences to the German nation upon the death of their head of State really isn't one of them.

Tony EH

Jawgap wrote: »

Well if we're going down that route I've first dibs on the bronze reliefs on the Wellington monument

Fakes.

Jawgap

Tony EH wrote: »

Fakes.

Would still look good in the garden.

Freak Midget

Palbear wrote: »

Mine.
The Nazis were murderers.
Maybe not all of them but certainly very many were.
Profiteering from selling their artefacts is not something I view favourably.

No one cares about your morals, nobody cares that you're offended. There's a lot I admire about the Third Reich and I don't care if that upsets you. And would be you equally offended if you saw Allied memorabilia on sale? After all the good guys fire bombed cities and raped civilians.

Freak Midget

Tony EH wrote: »

So while there's quite a bit to beat DeValera with, his offering of condolences to the German nation upon the death of their head of State really isn't one of them.

Exactly. We were a neutral nation. Why wouldn't DeValera have offered condolences to the Germans?

Tony EH

Jawgap wrote: »

Would still look good in the garden.

For an extra few bob, I can get you the real ones. :cool:

StudentDad

Freak Midget wrote: »

Exactly. We were a neutral nation. Why wouldn't DeValera have offered condolences to the Germans?

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car. In the same vein, Irish men and women who said sod this and went and fought with UK forces were treated as traitors when they came back after the war. Feck sake we didn't even have the decency to call it a war. We called it the 'Emergency.' Still do as far as I know.


As regards being Neutral and offering condolences, we were hardly neutral. Officially neutral perhaps but in practice? Who are you kidding?


SD

Dyr

StudentDad wrote: »

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car. In the same vein, Irish men and women who said sod this and went and fought with UK forces were treated as traitors when they came back after the war. Feck sake we didn't even have the decency to call it a war. We called it the 'Emergency.' Still do as far as I know.


As regards being Neutral and offering condolences, we were hardly neutral. Officially neutral perhaps but in practice? Who are you kidding?


SD

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

StudentDad

Bambi wrote: »

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

Really? You honestly think the Irish army would have lasted five minutes against the Wehrmacht had they conquered the UK and set their guns on us? Those traitors as you call them put their lives on the line for us and we treated them abhorrently. Were it not for them we'd be singing a whole different national anthem. Assuming of course good auld Hitler didn't just gas the lot of us!


SD

Eugene Norman

StudentDad wrote: »

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car. In the same vein, Irish men and women who said sod this and went and fought with UK forces were treated as traitors when they came back after the war. Feck sake we didn't even have the decency to call it a war. We called it the 'Emergency.' Still do as far as I know.


As regards being Neutral and offering condolences, we were hardly neutral. Officially neutral perhaps but in practice? Who are you kidding?


SD

It's hard to know what your argument is. On one case you are arguing that we were biased towards the allies, in the other case you seek to imply we were anti-allies.

Also we called it the emergency because we weren't at war.

Eugene Norman

StudentDad wrote: »

Really? You honestly think the Irish army would have lasted five minutes against the Wehrmacht had they conquered the UK and set their guns on us? Those traitors as you call them put their lives on the line for us and we treated them abhorrently. Were it not for them we'd be singing a whole different national anthem. Assuming of course good auld Hitler didn't just gas the lot of us!


SD

They deserted the Irish army. In most countries they would have been shot in return.

Dyr

StudentDad wrote: »

Really? You honestly think the Irish army would have lasted five minutes against the Wehrmacht had they conquered the UK and set their guns on us? Those traitors as you call them put their lives on the line for us and we treated them abhorrently. Were it not for them we'd be singing a whole different national anthem. Assuming of course good auld Hitler didn't just gas the lot of us!


SD

Indeed, we'd all be talking german instead of our native english :rolleyes:
They got off remarkably lightly for desertion. Not even a prison sentence.

Jawgap

Eugene Norman wrote: »

They deserted the Irish army. In most countries they would have been shot in return.

Actually, they didn't desert, unless you can show their intent was to remain permanently away.

And the Americans only shot one deserter, of about 20,000+ convicted deserters - Eddie Slovik, executed as an example, rather than because his case was especially notorious.

Even at its worst the British Army sentenced only about 10% of convicted deserters to death, and 'only' shot about 10% of those sentenced.

So in most countries they wouldn't have been shot, even if, in the unlikely event, they'd been convicted of desertion.

Jawgap

Bambi wrote: »

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

Not according to the Constitution and the Treason Act.

Dyr

Jawgap wrote: »

Not according to the Constitution and the Treason Act.

Should'nt you be painting post boxes red or something?

Jawgap

Bambi wrote: »

Should'nt you be painting post boxes red or something?

No, the it's too cold for painting - paint doesn't dry well at these temperatures.

Fact is, the soldiers in question were at worst guilty of being AWOL/withdrawing from a post without leave/quitting the ranks without leave......not treason.

Tony EH

StudentDad wrote: »

Neutral? PMSL German soldiers who found themselves within the 26 counties wound up interred and Allied soldiers in similar situations were given a slap on the back and sent to Belfast by car.

It's a bit of a post war myth that Allied (or British) airmen were "let go" up the north and the Gerries were kept under closer watch.

The fact is that neither side were particularly well guarded and if there were escapes, guards tended to look the other way in a few cases. The problem for the Germans is that once they had escaped the internment camp, managed to get away with hiding their accent (assuming they even spoke English , never mind Irish) and survived in the open Irish countryside, they then had the Channel to cross and that was no mean feat. So, the vast majority chose to sit out the war in the relative comfort of a very relaxed Irish prison camp. They were even let head out to the local pubs on occasion.

There are a number of cases where RAF airmen who had reached the north were returned to the Curragh and found themselves interred again.

Simple fact was that the German personnel had a pretty insurmountable obstacle in their way compared to the British personnel who managed to make it back to England.

StudentDad

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's hard to know what your argument is. On one case you are arguing that we were biased towards the allies, in the other case you seek to imply we were anti-allies.

Also we called it the emergency because we weren't at war.

Officially we were 'neutral' in practice we were hardly that. We benefitted from the protection of UK/Commonwealth forces initially and US forces later on in the war. I know of people who went to fight in WWII against the Third Reich and were treated as traitors on their return. Whether they were members of the Irish Armed Forces or private citizens too many of them were treated badly by both official and unofficial Ireland. At the end of the hostilities after benefitting from the protection of Allied forces we then turn around and give a diplomatic slap in the face to those very forces who protected us by offering condolences on the death of Hitler. (A man who killed himself rather than face the consequences of his actions).


SD

Dyr

StudentDad wrote: »

Officially we were 'neutral' in practice we were hardly that. We benefitted from the protection of UK/Commonwealth forces initially and US forces later on in the war.

Fascinating, how did the allies protect us when nobody was at war with us

StudentDad

Bambi wrote: »

Fascinating, how did the allies protect us when nobody was at war with us

You honestly think a little thing like 'neutrality' would have stopped Hitler had he gotten past Allied forces? Nevermind the fact that UBoats sunk Irish shipping with impunity? Friends they were not.


SD

Jawgap

Bambi wrote: »

Fascinating, how did the allies protect us when nobody was at war with us

By allowing fuel, products and produce bound for Ireland to be shipped on their ships......by allowing the armed forces of the country to buy supplies, equipment and spares (those Spitfires & Hurricanes didn't fly on water), sharing intelligence, co-ordinating contingency planning, etc.

Did the Germans always declare war before invading? And if we weren't at war how did the North Strand ( as well as other locations around the country) get bombed? (And if you are going to mention beam-bending, explain the physics).....and how did ships like Irish Oak, Luimneach etc get sunk?

Dyr

StudentDad wrote: »

You honestly think a little thing like 'neutrality' would have stopped Hitler had he gotten past Allied forces? Nevermind the fact that UBoats sunk Irish shipping with impunity? Friends they were not.


SD

Oh you're talking about makey-up what if scenarios. I thought you were talking about actual facts and that.

While we're dealing in abstraction you should note that the British had plans to invade Ireland and those lads who skipped off to take the shilling would have been serving in a belligerent nations army. Not that it would have bothered a lot of them I suspect

gandalf

Bambi wrote: »

If they deserted the irish army to fight in another army they were, literally, traitors.

Damn lucky not to have been shot as deserters when they returned. And still people have the neck to whine like the poor craturs were hard done by.

You are aware that a lot of those men joined the Irish Armed Forces in 1939 fully expecting Ireland to side with the allies only to see Ireland declare Neutrality and realise that they'd be used for manual labour for the duration of the "Emergancy".

They decided to join forces that were fighting with a truly dreadful regime. If I was around at that time I would like to think that I would have done the same.

Dyr

Jawgap wrote: »

By allowing fuel, products and produce bound for Ireland to be shipped on their ships......by allowing the armed forces of the country to buy supplies, equipment and spares (those Spitfires & Hurricanes didn't fly on water), sharing intelligence, co-ordinating contingency planning, etc.

Did the Germans always declare war before invading? And if we weren't at war how did the North Strand ( as well as other locations around the country) get bombed? (And if you are going to mention beam-bending, explain the physics).....and how did ships like Irish Oak, Luimneach etc get sunk?

Would you like to look up what "protection" means before scraping the barrel? We didnt get any protection from the allies becuase the germans did'nt target us, well except for that creamery down the south that might have been bombed accidentally on purpose for selling to the british army. You want a look at what german belligerence would have looked like for us reference Belfast and Derry not some Heinkel pilot mistaking the north strand for the UK.

Might also want to explain why our "allies" in Britain stopped exporting certain goods to us at the start of the war in the hope of coercing dev onto the allies side.

Dyr

gandalf wrote: »

You are aware that a lot of those men joined the Irish Armed Forces in 1939 fully expecting Ireland to side with the allies only to see Ireland declare Neutrality and realise that they'd be used for manual labour for the duration of the "Emergancy".

They decided to join forces that were fighting with a truly dreadful regime. If I was around at that time I would like to think that I would have done the same.

When barely a single politician in Ireland was in favour of siding with Britain (not the allies back in '39) and it would have probably triggered a small scale civil war?

The phrase "justification after the fact" springs to mind