Insurer asking for NCT and TAX for renewal?

To Elland Back

CiniO wrote: »

Well that's quite just my point here.
They might just not be happy to provide a cover for me, based on fact that I keep the car abroad. And that's the a very silly setup, as in normal world, they shouldn't be allowed to do that.
I should be allowed to keep my car wherever I want, and it should be none of their business.
In short that's how it works through most of EU. Unfortunately except Ireland.

So, knowing your insurer wouldn't be happy with your misrepresentation, are you now going to disclose it?

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

Well that's quite just my point here.
They might just not be happy to provide a cover for me, based on fact that I keep the car abroad. And that's the a very silly setup, as in normal world, they shouldn't be allowed to do that.
I should be allowed to keep my car wherever I want, and it should be none of their business.
In short that's how it works through most of EU. Unfortunately except Ireland.

But risk assessment for insurance is partly based on where the insured product is

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

I tried to pull a fast one?
I live in Ireland, I bought Irish registered car, and obviously I want to insure it in Ireland, as Ireland is the only country I can insure Irish registered car.
Fact that car is abroad, should make no difference here, as I though we have a freedom of moving goods withing the EU.

Of course it does - don't be silly.

pippip

Sure my premium went up when i moved house across Dublin.

Henry Ford III

This unfortunately could have serious knock on effects for any car you are insuring in the future CiniO.

You are obliged disclose this issue, and insurers may well take a very dim view of your attempt to pull the wool over their eyes.

BOSTIK

CiniO wrote: »

Actually most Irish insurers specifically say in their policies that car must have NCT.
Aviva is one of few, which don't have such requirement in their policy documents.

Aviva do now, their policies have numerous wording changes upon renewal. It's very easy now to check if a car's NCT cert is valid or not:

https://www.ncts.ie/booking_app/Bookings/NCTReminder.aspx?language=english

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

You did a good bit of browsing - fair play for that.

Unfortunately I can't take the credit as this came from a friend of my brother who is very well up with this sort of stuff and deals daily with traffic law.

In short, annex 5 describes minimum technical specifications (which relates to vehicle construction issues) which every contracting party of the convention is meant to require from vehicles registered on their terorrity.

You can see the whole annex 5 in here.
It describes all requirements in relation to braking, lighting, horn, tyres, speedometer, silencers, etc...

First part of this quotation which is this one:

all it says that each country can put stricter requirements for vehicles, so f.e. they can require each vehicle registered on their own terrority to have quiter exhaust than required by convention, or stronger brakes, or better tyres, or extra fire extinguisher to be carried in the vehicle.

Next part:

is just releiving foreign vehicles from those extra domestic requirements like above.

There's absolutely nothing about anything else than purely technical requirements which apply to vehicle construction, and absolutely nothing which could relate to vehicle taxation.

Indeed Annex 5 does in general deal with "technical requirements", however it ALSO requires a vehicle from another state to be on the road under ALL the legislation of the country it is registered in aswell.

ARTICLE 39
Technical requirements and inspection of vehicles
1. Every motor vehicle, every trailer and every combination of vehicles in international traffic shall satisfy the provisions of Annex 5 to this Convention.
It shall also be in good working order.

Ok so we know that means any vehicle in International Traffic must satisfy Annex 5.

Annex 5
TECHNICAL CONDITIONS CONCERNING MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAILERS
1. Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 3, paragraph 2 (a) and
Article 39, paragraph 1 of this Convention any Contracting Party may, with respect to motor vehicles which it registers and to trailers which it allows on the road under its domestic legislation, lay down rules which supplement, or are stricter than, the provisions of this annex. All vehicles in international traffic must meet the technical requirements in force in their country of registration when they first entered into service.

And yes Annex 5 does generally deal with "technical conditions", but Annex 5 also specifically states the vehicle must be on the road under the domestic legislation from where it is registered. And to be international traffic Annex 5 must be satisfied.

Domestic legislation includes all related legislation as I already pointed out and not just the technical requirements legislation.

The "domestic legislation" of a Contracting Party means the entire body of national or local laws and regulations in force in the territory of that Contracting Party;

As the above requirement is also part of Annex 5 and as motor tax is covered under our domestic legislation if a car does not have valid Irish motor tax then it does not satisfy all the requirements of Annex 5 and therefore does not satisfy Article 39 of the convention and therefore is not legally in international traffic.

Perhaps that's all open to interpretation, but it seems very specific and clear to me.

ARTICLE 35
Registration
1. (a) In order to be entitled to the benefits of this Convention, every motor vehicle in international traffic, and every trailer, other than a light trailer, coupled to a motor vehicle shall be registered by a Contracting Party or a subdivision thereof, and the driver of the motor vehicle shall carry a valid certificate of such registration issued either by a competent authority of such Contracting Party or subdivision thereof or on behalf and by authorization of such Contracting Party or subdivision thereof by an association duly empowered thereto by that Contracting Party or subdivision thereof.

Motor tax comes under vehicle registration legislation and a car is actually classed as "unregistered" under Irish legislation if it does not conform to the provisions of the Roads Act 1920 and the Finance Act 1920 which requires motor tax on the vehicle, so if the vehicle has no valid motor tax, then it is legally classed as unregistered and so doesn't satisfy Article 35 or Annex 5.

9935452

CiniO wrote: »

Has anyone experience this?
Insurance policy is due for renewal mid January.
They wrote a letter, that they need a copy of current NCT and current tax disc by post before 1st January, in order to be able to send renewal terms.
If I fail to send them above documents in time, they won't renew the policy.

Insurer is Aviva.

I find it quite bizzare, why do they want car to be NCTed and Taxed in order to be insured.
Car is currently not NCTed and declared off the road.

Does that mean, that we won't be able to insure a vehicle anymore without valid NCT or tax?

How did you get on with this in the end??
Did you get the car home?

CiniO

9935452 wrote: »

How did you get on with this in the end??
Did you get the car home?

Hi.
Thanks for reminding about this thread. I kinda forgot about it.

No, I didn't get the car home.
I thought about having it registered and insured in Poland, and driving on Polish plates back to Ireland, to switch back to Irish plates later, but after calculations this came up as waste of money. I could only make sense if I was to keep driving on Polish plates in Ireland for a while, which we all know is kinda illegal, and even though I live in very rural area, I didn't want to change it.
I decided against bringing the car back, and sold it there.

Once car was sold, I switched vehicle on the insurance policy to different car (which was also not in use, not taxed, but NCTed and not declared off the road - just not taxed).
I did this so they could offer me renewal, as I didn't want to be in situation where insurer refuses me renewal and this was about to happen and could possibly have implications for obtaining policy in the future.

But still - they didn't bother to send me any renewal details. I rang them in the last day of the policy, and asked why they didn't offer renewal.
I was told that they sent me a letter asking for proof of tax and NCT on my car, and they couldn't offer renewal until it was done.
I explained, that it indeed was a fact, but I changed a vehicle on this policy since, to another vehicle which actually does have NCT (i didn't mention anything about tax).
She double checked, and said that I was right and in that case she can offer me renewal, and she gave me a quote over the phone. Quote was silly so I didn't renew, but as least they can't say I was denied a renewal.

Unfortunately I don't have any written document that they actually offered renewal.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They did send NCB statement.
They just didn't send printed renewal offer.