Insurer asking for NCT and TAX for renewal?

CiniO

Has anyone experience this?
Insurance policy is due for renewal mid January.
They wrote a letter, that they need a copy of current NCT and current tax disc by post before 1st January, in order to be able to send renewal terms.
If I fail to send them above documents in time, they won't renew the policy.

Insurer is Aviva.

I find it quite bizzare, why do they want car to be NCTed and Taxed in order to be insured.
Car is currently not NCTed and declared off the road.

Does that mean, that we won't be able to insure a vehicle anymore without valid NCT or tax?

Del2005

Since a car technically shouldn't be on the road without a valid tax or NCT, with very limited exemptions for NCT, not insuring them makes sense. It can't be legally on the road so why should they cover it for road use.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Since a car technically shouldn't be on the road without a valid tax or NCT, with very limited exemptions for NCT, not insuring them makes sense. It can't be legally on the road so why should they cover it for road use.

Few scenarios.

1. Car is off the road, parked on private property, so no need for tax or NCT, but owner wants insurance policy in case of fire or theft.

2. Car is taxed, but not NCTed. It's parked on public road, but not driven. Legally it needs to have insurance - but looks like they won't provide it due to lack of NCT. On the other hand, NCT is not required for parked vehicle.

Jb1989

But really..
That is utter nonsense what there asking!!!!!!!!!
Jesus,
When you 'tax' a car you need 'insurance'
So now....
When you 'insure' a car you need
'Tax'
What a crazy world!!!

bazz26

I'm genuinely curious to know what concern or business it is of an insurance company whether a car is taxed or not. NCT I can understand as it's a certificate of road worthiness which can have a bearing on the cause of an accident resulting in a claim.

Needing your car to be taxed in order to get car insurance surely imo is a bit like needing your property tax paid in order to get home insurance?

Wheelnut

How old is this car?

CiniO

Wheelnut wrote: »

How old is this car?

It's 2006 so will be 10 years old in April 2016.
At the time of renewal, it's still 9 years old.

Kristopherus

CiniO wrote: »

Few scenarios.

1. Car is off the road, parked on private property, so no need for tax or NCT, but owner wants insurance policy in case of fire or theft.

2. Car is taxed, but not NCTed. It's parked on public road, but not driven. Legally it needs to have insurance - but looks like they won't provide it due to lack of NCT. On the other hand, NCT is not required for parked vehicle.

If the car is declared off the road, no insurer will insure it for being so. If the owner is worried about it being stolen or burnt, then they should include it in their property insurance. That way it would be treated the same as the family tv, if it were stolen.

LiamoSail

I would speculate that someone who keeps their tax and NCT in date is considered to have a more rule compliant attitude towards driving, and perhaps statistically found to be less of a risk to the insurer

Vego

Can you still do the off the road thing ? ....

MaryAntoinette

Some companies will put a higher loading on a car with no valid NCT, asking you to produce NCT and tax in paper is silly and unnecessary as these can be got off their data base.

curiosity

LiamoSail wrote: »

I would speculate that someone who keeps their tax and NCT in date is considered to have a more rule compliant attitude towards driving, and perhaps statistically found to be less of a risk to the insurer

Quite possible, they've got plenty of data to back things up!

MaryAntoinette wrote: »

Some companies will put a higher loading on a car with no valid NCT, asking you to produce NCT and tax in paper is silly and unnecessary as these can be got off their data base.

I'd think that they can see that Cinio doesn't have the car taxed & NCT'd, and the letter is just in case he does have it taxed/tested, but there's a database error. Otherwise lots more Aviva customers would be on here, posting about it.

CiniO wrote: »

Car is currently not NCTed and declared off the road.

Atlantic Dawn

Why don't they just update their terms and conditions to say car must be taxed and NCT'd?

9935452

MaryAntoinette wrote: »

Some companies will put a higher loading on a car with no valid NCT, asking you to produce NCT and tax in paper is silly and unnecessary as these can be got off their data base.

In a lot of policy s that are taken online, it is done automatically with very little human intervention. The theory is when they have to intervene and start checking stuff the price/premium starts going up. An example is administration fees for replacing a lost disc/cert, swapping insurance to another car etc
That said its odd they are looking for proof of tax and nct

mickdw

I'd politely request my cert of no claims if not already received and go else where. Alternatively, you could explain the situation. Your case is 100 percent legit. Car declared off the road. Is there now a requirement that an insured car must be used in a public place?
When you need insurance to get tax, how can it be possible that you need tax to get insurance?

CiniO

mickdw wrote: »

I'd politely request my cert of no claims if not already received and go else where. Alternatively, you could explain the situation. Your case is 100 percent legit. Car declared off the road. Is there now a requirement that an insured car must be used in a public place?
When you need insurance to get tax, how can it be possible that you need tax to get insurance?

Well, I've actually never said my case was 100% legit - but it well could be and that was the point of this thread. I can't see a reason to request tax for policy renewal, as having tax is not even mentioned as requirement in the policy. And I've never seen any policy issued in Ireland, which would stipulate tax as requirement.
NCT is different now - most insurers require it within a policy, so possibly not having it could have some implications in case of a claim. Aviva actually doesn't have anything about NCT in their policy, but as we can see they won't let me renew without it, so they took care of that. Silly way though as someone might genuinely not use the car and not need NCT in that case.

In my case, car is abroad, and has been there for a good while. NCT is expired and it's impossible to obtain new one until car is back in Ireland.
It's declared off the road in Ireland, as it's not being used on Irish public roads, and there is no need for Irish motortax on vehicle used abroad.

I was planning to drive it back to Ireland later in January, and do NCT straight away upon arriving, but it would be risky in the first place, and now if they won't renew policy it looks like will be impossible.

Victor

They want to check where you live and that there are no shenanigans.

CiniO

Victor wrote: »

They want to check where you live and that there are no shenanigans.

By asking me for NCT and tax, they want to check where I live?

robbie99

There's never an issue getting insurance when buying a car, second hand or brand new because the car's not taxed yet. It's normal for the car to be untaxed at that stage. So I don't think lack of tax is an issue.

The problem must be the lack of tax in conjunction with the lack of NCT. If a car doesn't have NCT, then why? Is it because the car is unroadworthy and has become a bit of a banger? With car being untaxed and declared off the road then it only increases the likelyhood of this in the eyes of the insurer.

I'd say they're categorising the car in with the over 15 yo cars where they think there's a higher chance of the car being used in insurance frauds.

Are you looking for TP or comprehensive insurance? Do they know that the car is abroad? - Not that that should be an issue as they insurance UK imports all the time before entry. And not that it's any comfort to you, maybe they just want to apply a loading on the premium rather than not insure you at all.

Liam McPoyle

Tax one is a bit odd but I can understand the logic behind the nct request. The car will be ten years old in 2006 ie when the insurance is due, doesn't matter when the renewal notice goes out as they are future dated. Its common practice particularly with commercial vehicles ie insurers will request a copy of the VLC before renewal will be issued for vehicles over a certain age.

Insurers are becoming more and plugged into national databases wrt the NCT and some of them won't quote a car without a valid NCT.

Liam McPoyle

Just saw the part about it being abroad.

I presume when you say abroad you mean outside of Ireland / UK ie the standard policy territorial limits.

If you havnt advised your insurer of the fact its not kept in Ireland then you are in breach of the policy conditions I would think and the policy is invalid in the event of a claim.

Atlantic Dawn

CiniO wrote: »

In my case, car is abroad, and has been there for a good while. NCT is expired and it's impossible to obtain new one until car is back in Ireland.
It's declared off the road in Ireland, as it's not being used on Irish public roads, and there is no need for Irish motortax on vehicle used abroad.

I was planning to drive it back to Ireland later in January, and do NCT straight away upon arriving, but it would be risky in the first place, and now if they won't renew policy it looks like will be impossible.

The cover abroad is for 31 days, they would look for proof of this in the event of a claim so your policy will be already invalid if you can't proove this.

thebiglad

moral hazard

A term used to describe a subjective hazard that tends to increase the probable frequency or severity of loss due to an insured peril. Moral hazard is measured by the character of the insured and the circumstances surrounding the subject of the insurance, especially the extent of potential loss or gain to the insured in case of loss. For example, insurance on a thriving business is not subject to a moral hazard to as great an extent as insurance on an unprofitable business. On the other hand, an insured with high moral standards may pose less of a moral hazard even with an unprofitable business than an insured with low moral standards. Moral hazards are considered when underwriting insurance, particularly fire insurance, and are addressed by certain policy exclusions. For example, underwriters are hesitant to insure vacant and unoccupied buildings because of the possibility that an insured will be tempted to intentionally start a fire to obtain an insurance recovery.

Special Circumstances

2020 Insurance Declaration:
You are only covered if
you drive a Yaris, less than 3 days old
on Tuesdays
when the (very slight) wind is from the northwest.
driving conditions must be absolutely perfect and you may only drive in daylight, whne the sun is high in the sky.
All your tax affairs are 100% in order, you are not in negative equity, you are not in overdraft.
You have been to confession in the last month (SERIOUS moral hazard potential if not). No impure thoughts.


Possible modifications which may void your cover
- magic tree air fresheners
- changing ANY radio settings from their default
- not having a padre pio sticker.

To Elland Back

Special Circumstances wrote: »

2020 Insurance Declaration:
You are only covered if
you drive a Yaris, less than 3 days old
on Tuesdays
when the (very slight) wind is from the northwest.
driving conditions must be absolutely perfect and you may only drive in daylight, whne the sun is high in the sky.
All your tax affairs are 100% in order, you are not in negative equity, you are not in overdraft.
You have been to confession in the last month (SERIOUS moral hazard potential if not). No impure thoughts.


Possible modifications which may void your cover
- magic tree air fresheners
- changing ANY radio settings from their default
- not having a padre pio sticker.

So, you've been given 4 whole years to prepare. On your head be it if you are not compliant. Sometimes I think Insurers are too soft

Wheelnut

There's something strange here: The car is abroad but not taxed in Ireland. It has to be taxed somewhere if it's on a (foreign) public road but you could only tax it in another country if you register it in that country. It is declared to be off the road but it is being used in another country. I don't think that "off the road" means only in one country, otherwise why not declare it off the road in Cambodia, Peru, Tasmania and every other country that you never go to? Maybe there are legitimate answers but I'm not surprised the insurance company are having a hard look at this one.

CiniO

Wheelnut wrote: »

There's something strange here: The car is abroad but not taxed in Ireland. It has to be taxed somewhere if it's on a (foreign) public road

It has to be registered in home country (in Ireland) and that is all good.
Car had VRT paid in Ireland during first registration, and holds a valid registration number and registration cert. That's required to drive it abroad.
Irish motortax is a domestic thing, and is not needed when driving abroad.

but you could only tax it in another country if you register it in that country. It is declared to be off the road but it is being used in another country. I don't think that "off the road" means only in one country, otherwise why not declare it off the road in Cambodia, Peru, Tasmania and every other country that you never go to? Maybe there are legitimate answers but I'm not surprised the insurance company are having a hard look at this one.

Insurance company don't know that car is abroad, and that's actually quite irrelevant to subject of this thread.
The point was that car has no NCT and is declared off the road, and because of that insurer asked me to present tax and NCT before they will offer me a renewal, which I find very strange.

CiniO

Business Cat wrote: »

Just saw the part about it being abroad.

I presume when you say abroad you mean outside of Ireland / UK ie the standard policy territorial limits.

It is indeed outside Irl/UK but within EU.
Standard policy territorial limits cover all EU for purpose of third party cover, so no problems here.

If you havnt advised your insurer of the fact its not kept in Ireland then you are in breach of the policy conditions I would think and the policy is invalid in the event of a claim.

It can not be invalid.
Policy issue in the EU, must cover all the EU. They can not get away with limiting that. (relates to third party cover).

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The cover abroad is for 31 days, they would look for proof of this in the event of a claim so your policy will be already invalid if you can't proove this.

It wouldn't.
As above - insurer by issuing a policy in the EU providing third party cover on a vehicle, must cover all the EU. That's the law.

ComfortKid

How are you expected to bring your car for the NCT without insurance

markc1184

I was asked for both proof of NCT and tax when renewing my insurance last February. I was waiting for my NCT test at the time so a copy of the appointment letter was sufficient. That was for Zurich, through Campion.

-=al=-

ComfortKid wrote: »

How are you expected to bring your car for the NCT without insurance

A friend of mine trying to get insurance this week was asked for a valid nct in order to go ahead with the insurance, so I had the same question as you!

Does anyone know what the deal is with this?

You need insurance to tax the car and then you can get the nct... But if you can't get insurance without the nct, what the hell do you do!?

Liam McPoyle

CiniO wrote: »

It is indeed outside Irl/UK but within EU.
Standard policy territorial limits cover all EU for purpose of third party cover, so no problems here.



It can not be invalid.
Policy issue in the EU, must cover all the EU. They can not get away with limiting that. (relates to third party cover).





It wouldn't.
As above - insurer by issuing a policy in the EU providing third party cover on a vehicle, must cover all the EU. That's the law.

You have not declared a material fact to your insurer ie that it has been long term on continental Europe.

I know that RTA cover exists as its a minimum requirement but if the car was stolen or burned out it is not covered, accidental damage is not covered either.

CiniO

Business Cat wrote: »

You have not declared a material fact to your insurer ie that it has been long term on continental Europe.

Car maybe has been on the continental Europe for long time, but it's only insured under this policy for few weeks now. I'm intending to take it to Ireland probably and keep it at my home address, so I can't see any material facts that I haven't declared.

I know that RTA cover exists as its a minimum requirement but if the car was stolen or burned out it is not covered, accidental damage is not covered either.

I know that. Car is not worth much anyway.

Agricola

Weird. I just took out a policy in the last week with BOI. It was messy as I was cancelling my old policy, changing car and supplying them with a cancelled NCB statement. They never asked me for a thing bar my debit card details.

mickdw

Cinio, I think these latest disclosures shine some light on the issue.
You are actually using the car in the EU without valid nct or irish tax. I always assumed that a car needs to be legal in home state in order to be legal when taken to another state. Maybe that is not correct but that is what I always considered to be true.
PSNI have been known to have similar thinking when irish cars are found in the north without tax.
Anyway, I guess it might not be a bad idea for insurers to query cases such as yours.

CiniO

mickdw wrote: »

Cinio, I think these latest disclosures shine some light on the issue.
You are actually using the car in the EU without valid nct or irish tax. I always assumed that a car needs to be legal in home state in order to be legal when taken to another state. Maybe that is not correct but that is what I always considered to be true.

NCT is obviously required, no matter if car is driver in Ireland or abroad.
But Irish motortax is irrelevant abroad.
Noting illegal to drive Irish car abroad without valid tax.
Once it's insured, NCTed, and still registered in Ireland (f.e. VRT refund was not obtained), then all is 100%.

PSNI have been known to have similar thinking when irish cars are found in the north without tax.
Anyway, I guess it might not be a bad idea for insurers to query cases such as yours.

I agree. Driving this car there is not entirely legal, due to lack of NCT and I know I'm taking a risk.
But first of all insurer doesn't know that car is abroad, and secondly I while I understand the reasons for them to ask about valid NCT, I completely don't understand a reason they ask for tax, especially that car is declared off the road.

oleras

Would it be to stop people maintaining NCB's without actually using the car ?

Someone fecks off to OZ, keep tpft on a cheap yoke for 250/ year ? Come back 3 years later.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Car maybe has been on the continental Europe for long time, but it's only insured under this policy for few weeks now. I'm intending to take it to Ireland probably and keep it at my home address, so I can't see any material facts that I haven't declared.



I know that. Car is not worth much anyway.

If you check the Aviva quote system, you'll find that one of the assumptions you signed up to is that the car is normally parked at your residential address. For one so precise as you CiniO, I am flabbergasted!

Liam McPoyle

CiniO wrote: »

Car maybe has been on the continental Europe for long time, but it's only insured under this policy for few weeks now. I'm intending to take it to Ireland probably and keep it at my home address, so I can't see any material facts that I haven't declared.



I know that. Car is not worth much anyway.

Did you tell them when the car was put on cover that it was in Europe?

If not, that's non disclosure of a material fact.

Its really as clear cut as that man.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

If you check the Aviva quote system, you'll find that one of the assumptions you signed up to is that the car is normally parked at your residential address. For one so precise as you CiniO, I am flabbergasted!

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.
Car is currently abroad, but together won't be more than 1.5 month since aviva cover instated till the car is back in Ireland at my home address. I'm intending to take it back to Ireland, so IMO condition that it's normally kept at home address is fulfilled. They can't prevent me from using my car for holidays abroad.

Also it is actually kept at my home address in Poland. I just have 2 homes.

I don't think they could escape easily from paying out in case of a claim. Especially that in case of third party claim, they'd need to pay out, and only possibly could try to recoup the sum from me.

MaryAntoinette

Its one for Joe now at this stage.

ironclaw

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.

Most policies allow 30 or so days of 'holiday' cover, so the other 335 days the car has to be in Ireland, and majority of them at the insured address as that address is a critical factor in risk calculation.

I believe you also need to tell your insurer when you intend to go abroad, so if you did have an accident enroute back from the continent, they'd likely ask for your travel itinerary, which would look a little odd if the outbound didn't line up with what you told them to start with i.e. The car was already in Poland.

Also, minor correction to some posters, you do not need insurance to obtain tax.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.
Car is currently abroad, but together won't be more than 1.5 month since aviva cover instated till the car is back in Ireland at my home address. I'm intending to take it back to Ireland, so IMO condition that it's normally kept at home address is fulfilled. They can't prevent me from using my car for holidays abroad.

Also it is actually kept at my home address in Poland. I just have 2 homes.

I don't think they could escape easily from paying out in case of a claim. Especially that in case of third party claim, they'd need to pay out, and only possibly could try to recoup the sum from me.

By your own admissions it's been abroad for a long time and at the time of inception of the policy you had no fixed plans to have it at your home address which is clearly the address identified in your policy documentation. I would suspect that you have not a leg to stand on but it will hardly come to light in any event.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Few scenarios.

1. Car is off the road, parked on private property, so no need for tax or NCT, but owner wants insurance policy in case of fire or theft.

2. Car is taxed, but not NCTed. It's parked on public road, but not driven. Legally it needs to have insurance - but looks like they won't provide it due to lack of NCT. On the other hand, NCT is not required for parked vehicle.

There is a policy for vehicles declared off the road, why would you require 3rd party cover for a vehicle which should never encounter a 3rd party.

A vehicle parked on the public road needs an NCT, parking is using the public road so it needs to be road legal.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.
Car is currently abroad, but together won't be more than 1.5 month since aviva cover instated till the car is back in Ireland at my home address. I'm intending to take it back to Ireland, so IMO condition that it's normally kept at home address is fulfilled. They can't prevent me from using my car for holidays abroad.

Also it is actually kept at my home address in Poland. I just have 2 homes.

I don't think they could escape easily from paying out in case of a claim. Especially that in case of third party claim, they'd need to pay out, and only possibly could try to recoup the sum from me.

Pretty blatant non disclosure in my opinion.

p.s. Normally means more often than not I'd suggest. So that car wouldn't normally have been at your home address (the one you gave on the proposal) for at least 3 months from inception.

CiniO

ironclaw wrote: »

Most policies allow 30 or so days of 'holiday' cover, so the other 335 days the car has to be in Ireland, and majority of them at the insured address as that address is a critical factor in risk calculation.

Never seen anything in any policy document about holidays.
Are you saying some insurers are limiting a time person can actually go on holidays (even within Ireland)?
Yes - most insurers limit time of additional cover abroad to 30, 60 or 90 days, but this in no way affects third party cover.

I believe you also need to tell your insurer when you intend to go abroad,

Maybe I also should ask them, every time I need to go to toilet. It's getting ridiculous.
No - I don't need to tell my insurer that I plan to drive abroad.

so if you did have an accident enroute back from the continent, they'd likely ask for your travel itinerary, which would look a little odd if the outbound didn't line up with what you told them to start with i.e. The car was already in Poland.

I didn't tell them anything. Just switched my policy to this car in mid December. Did it online. They didn't ask where car was located at that moment. Car is registered in my name to my home address in Ireland.
There's no requirement that car is actually at home at the moment I transfer policy to it.

Also, minor correction to some posters, you do not need insurance to obtain tax.

To fill in motor tax form correctly, you do.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

By your own admissions it's been abroad for a long time and at the time of inception of the policy you had no fixed plans to have it at your home address which is clearly the address identified in your policy documentation.

Well I did.
Car was left parked off the road in Poland for few months - I actually bought it there.
I decided to start using it, and bring it back to Ireland. That's why I moved the policy onto it in mid December, and started arranging plans for the return journey for late January. Looks like it won't be that easy, as my policy will now expire before that journey, and they won't renew it without valid NCT which I won't be able to get.
I'll have to go earlier (before policy renewal date) or arrange something different.

I would suspect that you have not a leg to stand on but it will hardly come to light in any event.

I wouldn't agree.
I am resident in Ireland at address I gave to my insurer.
Policy covers driving all over EU without any limitations - because that what it has to cover to obey EU law.
I can see absolutely no reason, why would they have any right to try to void my policy based on fact that car is abroad.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

There is a policy for vehicles declared off the road, why would you require 3rd party cover for a vehicle which should never encounter a 3rd party.

Any examples of such policies?

A vehicle parked on the public road needs an NCT, parking is using the public road so it needs to be road legal.

Have you got any source for that?

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Pretty blatant non disclosure in my opinion.

p.s. Normally means more often than not I'd suggest. So that car wouldn't normally have been at your home address (the one you gave on the proposal) for at least 3 months from inception.

Inception of the policy on this car was mid December, so not even 2 weeks ago.
If car is abroad for up to 2 months, and then plan is to keep it at home address for remaining 10 months, then your definition of "normally" suits.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

Well I did.
Car was left parked off the road in Poland for few months - I actually bought it there.
I decided to start using it, and bring it back to Ireland. That's why I moved the policy onto it in mid December, and started arranging plans for the return journey for late January. Looks like it won't be that easy, as my policy will now expire before that journey, and they won't renew it without valid NCT which I won't be able to get.
I'll have to go earlier (before policy renewal date) or arrange something different.



I wouldn't agree.
I am resident in Ireland at address I gave to my insurer.
Policy covers driving all over EU without any limitations - because that what it has to cover to obey EU law.
I can see absolutely no reason, why would they have any right to try to void my policy based on fact that car is abroad.

The location of the car is a material fact. Failing to disclose that was a clear breach of your obligations.

So they would be well within their rights to void the policy.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The location of the car is a material fact. Failing to disclose that was a clear breach of your obligations.

So they would be well within their rights to void the policy.

OK. So a question for you.
Let's say you live in Dublin.
But you have a car which you parked at your parents address in Galway.
You insure it, but for the first 2 months keep it at your parents address before you arrange parking space for it in your place in Dublin.

Would you really be calling your insurer to tell them, that your car will be kept in Galway for a first while?