Insurer asking for NCT and TAX for renewal?

Liam McPoyle

CiniO wrote: »

It is indeed outside Irl/UK but within EU.
Standard policy territorial limits cover all EU for purpose of third party cover, so no problems here.



It can not be invalid.
Policy issue in the EU, must cover all the EU. They can not get away with limiting that. (relates to third party cover).





It wouldn't.
As above - insurer by issuing a policy in the EU providing third party cover on a vehicle, must cover all the EU. That's the law.

You have not declared a material fact to your insurer ie that it has been long term on continental Europe.

I know that RTA cover exists as its a minimum requirement but if the car was stolen or burned out it is not covered, accidental damage is not covered either.

CiniO

Business Cat wrote: »

You have not declared a material fact to your insurer ie that it has been long term on continental Europe.

Car maybe has been on the continental Europe for long time, but it's only insured under this policy for few weeks now. I'm intending to take it to Ireland probably and keep it at my home address, so I can't see any material facts that I haven't declared.

I know that RTA cover exists as its a minimum requirement but if the car was stolen or burned out it is not covered, accidental damage is not covered either.

I know that. Car is not worth much anyway.

Agricola

Weird. I just took out a policy in the last week with BOI. It was messy as I was cancelling my old policy, changing car and supplying them with a cancelled NCB statement. They never asked me for a thing bar my debit card details.

mickdw

Cinio, I think these latest disclosures shine some light on the issue.
You are actually using the car in the EU without valid nct or irish tax. I always assumed that a car needs to be legal in home state in order to be legal when taken to another state. Maybe that is not correct but that is what I always considered to be true.
PSNI have been known to have similar thinking when irish cars are found in the north without tax.
Anyway, I guess it might not be a bad idea for insurers to query cases such as yours.

CiniO

mickdw wrote: »

Cinio, I think these latest disclosures shine some light on the issue.
You are actually using the car in the EU without valid nct or irish tax. I always assumed that a car needs to be legal in home state in order to be legal when taken to another state. Maybe that is not correct but that is what I always considered to be true.

NCT is obviously required, no matter if car is driver in Ireland or abroad.
But Irish motortax is irrelevant abroad.
Noting illegal to drive Irish car abroad without valid tax.
Once it's insured, NCTed, and still registered in Ireland (f.e. VRT refund was not obtained), then all is 100%.

PSNI have been known to have similar thinking when irish cars are found in the north without tax.
Anyway, I guess it might not be a bad idea for insurers to query cases such as yours.

I agree. Driving this car there is not entirely legal, due to lack of NCT and I know I'm taking a risk.
But first of all insurer doesn't know that car is abroad, and secondly I while I understand the reasons for them to ask about valid NCT, I completely don't understand a reason they ask for tax, especially that car is declared off the road.

oleras

Would it be to stop people maintaining NCB's without actually using the car ?

Someone fecks off to OZ, keep tpft on a cheap yoke for 250/ year ? Come back 3 years later.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Car maybe has been on the continental Europe for long time, but it's only insured under this policy for few weeks now. I'm intending to take it to Ireland probably and keep it at my home address, so I can't see any material facts that I haven't declared.



I know that. Car is not worth much anyway.

If you check the Aviva quote system, you'll find that one of the assumptions you signed up to is that the car is normally parked at your residential address. For one so precise as you CiniO, I am flabbergasted!

Liam McPoyle

CiniO wrote: »

Car maybe has been on the continental Europe for long time, but it's only insured under this policy for few weeks now. I'm intending to take it to Ireland probably and keep it at my home address, so I can't see any material facts that I haven't declared.



I know that. Car is not worth much anyway.

Did you tell them when the car was put on cover that it was in Europe?

If not, that's non disclosure of a material fact.

Its really as clear cut as that man.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

If you check the Aviva quote system, you'll find that one of the assumptions you signed up to is that the car is normally parked at your residential address. For one so precise as you CiniO, I am flabbergasted!

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.
Car is currently abroad, but together won't be more than 1.5 month since aviva cover instated till the car is back in Ireland at my home address. I'm intending to take it back to Ireland, so IMO condition that it's normally kept at home address is fulfilled. They can't prevent me from using my car for holidays abroad.

Also it is actually kept at my home address in Poland. I just have 2 homes.

I don't think they could escape easily from paying out in case of a claim. Especially that in case of third party claim, they'd need to pay out, and only possibly could try to recoup the sum from me.

MaryAntoinette

Its one for Joe now at this stage.

ironclaw

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.

Most policies allow 30 or so days of 'holiday' cover, so the other 335 days the car has to be in Ireland, and majority of them at the insured address as that address is a critical factor in risk calculation.

I believe you also need to tell your insurer when you intend to go abroad, so if you did have an accident enroute back from the continent, they'd likely ask for your travel itinerary, which would look a little odd if the outbound didn't line up with what you told them to start with i.e. The car was already in Poland.

Also, minor correction to some posters, you do not need insurance to obtain tax.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.
Car is currently abroad, but together won't be more than 1.5 month since aviva cover instated till the car is back in Ireland at my home address. I'm intending to take it back to Ireland, so IMO condition that it's normally kept at home address is fulfilled. They can't prevent me from using my car for holidays abroad.

Also it is actually kept at my home address in Poland. I just have 2 homes.

I don't think they could escape easily from paying out in case of a claim. Especially that in case of third party claim, they'd need to pay out, and only possibly could try to recoup the sum from me.

By your own admissions it's been abroad for a long time and at the time of inception of the policy you had no fixed plans to have it at your home address which is clearly the address identified in your policy documentation. I would suspect that you have not a leg to stand on but it will hardly come to light in any event.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Few scenarios.

1. Car is off the road, parked on private property, so no need for tax or NCT, but owner wants insurance policy in case of fire or theft.

2. Car is taxed, but not NCTed. It's parked on public road, but not driven. Legally it needs to have insurance - but looks like they won't provide it due to lack of NCT. On the other hand, NCT is not required for parked vehicle.

There is a policy for vehicles declared off the road, why would you require 3rd party cover for a vehicle which should never encounter a 3rd party.

A vehicle parked on the public road needs an NCT, parking is using the public road so it needs to be road legal.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise it says: "Car Is normally parked at your home address".

First of all what does "normally" mean.
Car is currently abroad, but together won't be more than 1.5 month since aviva cover instated till the car is back in Ireland at my home address. I'm intending to take it back to Ireland, so IMO condition that it's normally kept at home address is fulfilled. They can't prevent me from using my car for holidays abroad.

Also it is actually kept at my home address in Poland. I just have 2 homes.

I don't think they could escape easily from paying out in case of a claim. Especially that in case of third party claim, they'd need to pay out, and only possibly could try to recoup the sum from me.

Pretty blatant non disclosure in my opinion.

p.s. Normally means more often than not I'd suggest. So that car wouldn't normally have been at your home address (the one you gave on the proposal) for at least 3 months from inception.

CiniO

ironclaw wrote: »

Most policies allow 30 or so days of 'holiday' cover, so the other 335 days the car has to be in Ireland, and majority of them at the insured address as that address is a critical factor in risk calculation.

Never seen anything in any policy document about holidays.
Are you saying some insurers are limiting a time person can actually go on holidays (even within Ireland)?
Yes - most insurers limit time of additional cover abroad to 30, 60 or 90 days, but this in no way affects third party cover.

I believe you also need to tell your insurer when you intend to go abroad,

Maybe I also should ask them, every time I need to go to toilet. It's getting ridiculous.
No - I don't need to tell my insurer that I plan to drive abroad.

so if you did have an accident enroute back from the continent, they'd likely ask for your travel itinerary, which would look a little odd if the outbound didn't line up with what you told them to start with i.e. The car was already in Poland.

I didn't tell them anything. Just switched my policy to this car in mid December. Did it online. They didn't ask where car was located at that moment. Car is registered in my name to my home address in Ireland.
There's no requirement that car is actually at home at the moment I transfer policy to it.

Also, minor correction to some posters, you do not need insurance to obtain tax.

To fill in motor tax form correctly, you do.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

By your own admissions it's been abroad for a long time and at the time of inception of the policy you had no fixed plans to have it at your home address which is clearly the address identified in your policy documentation.

Well I did.
Car was left parked off the road in Poland for few months - I actually bought it there.
I decided to start using it, and bring it back to Ireland. That's why I moved the policy onto it in mid December, and started arranging plans for the return journey for late January. Looks like it won't be that easy, as my policy will now expire before that journey, and they won't renew it without valid NCT which I won't be able to get.
I'll have to go earlier (before policy renewal date) or arrange something different.

I would suspect that you have not a leg to stand on but it will hardly come to light in any event.

I wouldn't agree.
I am resident in Ireland at address I gave to my insurer.
Policy covers driving all over EU without any limitations - because that what it has to cover to obey EU law.
I can see absolutely no reason, why would they have any right to try to void my policy based on fact that car is abroad.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

There is a policy for vehicles declared off the road, why would you require 3rd party cover for a vehicle which should never encounter a 3rd party.

Any examples of such policies?

A vehicle parked on the public road needs an NCT, parking is using the public road so it needs to be road legal.

Have you got any source for that?

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Pretty blatant non disclosure in my opinion.

p.s. Normally means more often than not I'd suggest. So that car wouldn't normally have been at your home address (the one you gave on the proposal) for at least 3 months from inception.

Inception of the policy on this car was mid December, so not even 2 weeks ago.
If car is abroad for up to 2 months, and then plan is to keep it at home address for remaining 10 months, then your definition of "normally" suits.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

Well I did.
Car was left parked off the road in Poland for few months - I actually bought it there.
I decided to start using it, and bring it back to Ireland. That's why I moved the policy onto it in mid December, and started arranging plans for the return journey for late January. Looks like it won't be that easy, as my policy will now expire before that journey, and they won't renew it without valid NCT which I won't be able to get.
I'll have to go earlier (before policy renewal date) or arrange something different.



I wouldn't agree.
I am resident in Ireland at address I gave to my insurer.
Policy covers driving all over EU without any limitations - because that what it has to cover to obey EU law.
I can see absolutely no reason, why would they have any right to try to void my policy based on fact that car is abroad.

The location of the car is a material fact. Failing to disclose that was a clear breach of your obligations.

So they would be well within their rights to void the policy.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The location of the car is a material fact. Failing to disclose that was a clear breach of your obligations.

So they would be well within their rights to void the policy.

OK. So a question for you.
Let's say you live in Dublin.
But you have a car which you parked at your parents address in Galway.
You insure it, but for the first 2 months keep it at your parents address before you arrange parking space for it in your place in Dublin.

Would you really be calling your insurer to tell them, that your car will be kept in Galway for a first while?

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

OK. So a question for you.
Let's say you live in Dublin.
But you have a car which you parked at your parents address in Galway.
You insure it, but for the first 2 months keep it at your parents address before you arrange parking space for it in your place in Dublin.

Would you really be calling your insurer to tell them, that your car will be kept in Galway for a first while?

Yes. Always tell the truth - better to be certain than sorry.

p.s. It'd more probably be relevant the other way around as theft might be more of a risk for parked up car in Dublin.

runawaybishop

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The location of the car is a material fact. Failing to disclose that was a clear breach of your obligations.

So they would be well within their rights to void the policy.

How do they know where it is and why would that have any bearing on them asking for NCT and tax at renewal?

Henry Ford III

runawaybishop wrote: »

How do they know where it is and why would that have any bearing on them asking for NCT and tax at renewal?

They don't but it's a material fact, so the proposer/policy holder is obliged to tell them.

runawaybishop

Henry Ford III wrote: »

They don't but it's a material fact, so the proposer/policy holder is obliged to tell them.

I don't dispute that's its revelant, I just don't see the connection between that and them askig for NCT and tax certs. I've never been asked that myself with aviva.

To Elland Back

CiniO wrote:

Has anyone experience this? Insurance policy is due for renewal mid January. They wrote a letter, that they need a copy of current NCT and current tax disc by post before 1st January, in order to be able to send renewal terms. If I fail to send them above documents in time, they won't renew the policy.

Bottom line is that insurers can cancel a policy or refuse to renew a policy for any reason they choose. That's a declaration issue that will follow you for years to come. The fact you maintain a vehicle abroad is a material fact, no matter what you think. The acid test is what an ordinary person would think reasonable and I think the majority would believe an Irish insurer would like to know you maintain the vehicle in Poland

To Elland Back

runawaybishop wrote: »

I don't dispute that's its revelant, I just don't see the connection between that and them askig for NCT and tax certs. I've never been asked that myself with aviva.

When insurers get a whiff of what is not quite right, they look for accepted reasons to kick the policy to the kerb. They are not going to cite a specific reason in case it can lead to a lengthy challenge. They make a broad, vague request and cancel the policy if you can't comply.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Well I did.
Car was left parked off the road in Poland for few months - I actually bought it there.
I decided to start using it, and bring it back to Ireland. That's why I moved the policy onto it in mid December, and started arranging plans for the return journey for late January. Looks like it won't be that easy, as my policy will now expire before that journey, and they won't renew it without valid NCT which I won't be able to get.
I'll have to go earlier (before policy renewal date) or arrange something different.



I wouldn't agree.
I am resident in Ireland at address I gave to my insurer.
Policy covers driving all over EU without any limitations - because that what it has to cover to obey EU law.
I can see absolutely no reason, why would they have any right to try to void my policy based on fact that car is abroad.

CiniO,

If you bought the car in Poland and it has been there ever since, has never been to your home address in Ireland and won't be there for another couple of months, I fail to see how you could, in all honesty, believe that you could make a statement/undertaking that it is "normally" kept in Mayo. Frankly I think your policy is void ab initio for material misstatement and that you might wonder as to whether you provided false information to obtain an offer of insurance.

Your comparison between Galway and Dubkin is relevant but the materiality is much lower. The car is not in your possession, the insurer in question does not provide (ie Aviva Ireland) insurance in Poland and would not countenance insuring the car if it was aware of this material fact.

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

CiniO,

If you bought the car in Poland and it has been there ever since, has never been to your home address in Ireland and won't be there for another couple of months,

To be precise by the end of next month, so not that long.

I fail to see how you could, in all honesty, believe that you could make a statement/undertaking that it is "normally" kept in Mayo.

I assume that fact when I bought the car is quite irrelevant. It was parked up and not used until recently, when I switch my policy to it, less than 2 weeks ago. I can't see any reason why insurer would be interested what was happening to the car and where it was prior to attaching the policy to it.

Frankly I think your policy is void ab initio for material misstatement and that you might wonder as to whether you provided false information to obtain an offer of insurance.

I switched a car with their online system - that's all.
I didn't provide any false information.
They openly say they provide full cover under the policy for 31 days. You don't need to ask them or inform them that vehicle is going abroad for that period (that's confirmed by them long time ago). So my understanding is that I have this 31 days from the moment car got insured with them, where car can be driven and used abroad without a need to inform them.
They also say, they'll be happy to extend this period to 90 days for free if I ask them.
Considering it's been less than 2 weeks so far, I honestly can't see any problem.

Your comparison between Galway and Dubkin is relevant but the materiality is much lower.

I genuinely fail to see why is it lower.
In both cases car is not kept at home address.
In both cases car is kept and used where policy allows it to be used. (within Ireland and within EU).

The car is not in your possession,

I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Car is in my possession. I have it's documents, keys, and it's parked in my house and used by me when I'm there.

the insurer in question does not provide (ie Aviva Ireland) insurance in Poland and would not countenance insuring the car if it was aware of this material fact.

As per above they would provide full cover for it for 31 days without anything, 90 days upon asking them, and for the whole period of policy in relation to third party cover, as they are obliged to do so by EU directive.

Are you saying that once insurer would hear that car is located abroad, they would cancel my policy.
IMO that would be breath of this EU directive and I could possibly take legal steps against them.

http://ec.europa.eu/finance/insurance/consumer/motor/index_en.htm

Motor Insurance Directive
The EU Motor Insurance Directive 2009/103/EC is intended to help EU residents involved in a road accident in another EU country.
Under the Directive, subscribers to compulsory motor insurance policies in all EU countries are covered for motoring throughout the EU.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

To be precise by the end of next month, so not that long.


I assume that fact when I bought the car is quite irrelevant. It was parked up and not used until recently, when I switch my policy to it, less than 2 weeks ago. I can't see any reason why insurer would be interested what was happening to the car and where it was prior to attaching the policy to it.


I switched a car with their online system - that's all.
I didn't provide any false information.
They openly say they provide full cover under the policy for 31 days. You don't need to ask them or inform them that vehicle is going abroad for that period (that's confirmed by them long time ago). So my understanding is that I have this 31 days from the moment car got insured with them, where car can be driven and used abroad without a need to inform them.
They also say, they'll be happy to extend this period to 90 days for free if I ask them.
Considering it's been less than 2 weeks so far, I honestly can't see any problem.


I genuinely fail to see why is it lower.
In both cases car is not kept at home address.
In both cases car is kept and used where policy allows it to be used. (within Ireland and within EU).


I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Car is in my possession. I have it's documents, keys, and it's parked in my house and used by me when I'm there.


As per above they would provide full cover for it for 31 days without anything, 90 days upon asking them, and for the whole period of policy in relation to third party cover, as they are obliged to do so by EU directive.

Are you saying that once insurer would hear that car is located abroad, they would cancel my policy.
IMO that would be breath of this EU directive and I could possibly take legal steps against them.

http://ec.europa.eu/finance/insurance/consumer/motor/index_en.htm

What is funny is that you are usually more precise in your thinking. If the full facts were known to the insurer, their most logical course of action should be to report you to the Gardai for seeking to obtain insurance through deception. The car has never been in Ireland during the entire course of your ownership of it yet you claim it is normally kept at your home address in Mayo. Can you not see that is a blatant falsehood?

CiniO

Marcusm wrote: »

What is funny is that you are usually more precise in your thinking. If the full facts were known to the insurer, their most logical course of action should be to report you to the Gardai for seeking to obtain insurance through deception. The car has never been in Ireland during the entire course of your ownership of it yet you claim it is normally kept at your home address in Mayo. Can you not see that is a blatant falsehood?

So you are saying, that I failed to disclose material fact that car is not being kept at my home address.
Reason for that is because car was never at my home address since I insured it 2 weeks ago, same as it never been at my home address since I purchased it 8 months ago, right?

What if scenario was that someone bought the car, insured it, kept it for a week at his home address, and then went for a trip abroad for 3 months.
Would that be considered the same - that car is not normally kept at home address?