Insurer asking for NCT and TAX for renewal?

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

If the car has to fulfil all technical requirements for its home country to be road legal in Poland then technically it should have Irish Motor tax paid. It's illegal to drive in Ireland without motor tax so how can it be legal in Poland if it's missing one of the most important things that allows it onto Irish roads?

No.
Sorry maybe I used a wrong word to describe.
By technical requirements they mean vehicle construction and equipment. Anything that would normally be checked during road worthiness test like adequate lighting, suspension, tyres, extra equipment.
F.e. rear fog light might not be required on Irish registered car, but it is required on Polish registered car.
But it is legal to drive in Poland Irish registered car without it, as it's not required in Ireland.
Same with f.e. fire extinguisher. Every Polish registered car needs to have one, but Irish registered cars don't, so there's no need to equip it with one when driven in Poland.

All this has nothing to do with financial requirements like motortax

CiniO

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Motor tax is a form of annual registration which keeps the registration valid. Different countries have this concept although not always in the same form.

That's incorrect.
Registration is valid no matter if Motortax is paid or not.
Vehicle can not be used in public place in Ireland without it, but it doesn't make vehicle registration invalid

Tigger

When I renew my tax they ask for my insurance
If I need tax to renew insurance I will be stuck in a loop

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

No.
Sorry maybe I used a wrong word to describe.
By technical requirements they mean vehicle construction and equipment. Anything that would normally be checked during road worthiness test like adequate lighting, suspension, tyres, extra equipment.
F.e. rear fog light might not be required on Irish registered car, but it is required on Polish registered car.
But it is legal to drive in Poland Irish registered car without it, as it's not required in Ireland.
Same with f.e. fire extinguisher. Every Polish registered car needs to have one, but Irish registered cars don't, so there's no need to equip it with one when driven in Poland.

All this has nothing to do with financial requirements like motortax

It is always tought that a vehicle must be road legal in the origin country to be road legal in another and it seems that is in fact the case.

Technical requirements also includes "the entire body of national or local laws and regulation".

I had to clarify before posting this, but this was advised by a colleague of my brother in the traffic core who knows his stuff.

Driving a foreign registered vehicle in another state is legally defined as "international traffic".

The regulations regarding the use of motor vehicles in international traffic for countries which ratified The Geneva Convention on Road Traffic 1949 or The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968 are legally set by those conventions.

A few countries including Ireland and the UK and a few others are still under the convention of 1949 whilst Poland and most other countries use the convention of 1968.

Any country which allows vehicles from another country under the 1949 convention does so under the following condition:-

Article 18
1. In order to be entitled to the benefits of this Convention, a motor vehicle shall be registered by a Contracting State or subdivision thereof in the manner prescribed by its legislation.

Whilst that statement in itself isn't too clear on tax in itself, it does make tax a requirement from Irish vehicles (and possibly other countries depending on how their laws are construed) as tax comes under the Vehicle Registration and Licensing Regulations, and so valid motor tax is required to satisfy the "registered by a Contracting State or subdivision thereof in the manner prescribed by its legislation" requirement of Article 18. This is how the UK (Northern Ireland) are legally able to seize Irish registered cars for no tax even though the tax itself is not a UK matter according to him. In other words they aren't seized for lack of tax, but rather for not being legally in their jurisdiction.

However, Poland and most orher EU countries and states signed to the conventions are now legally bound by the convention of 1968 which is more clear and specifically states a vehicle must satisfy all legal requirements from its country of registration to be legal as "international traffic".

ARTICLE 39
Technical requirements and inspection of vehicles
1. Every motor vehicle, every trailer and every combination of vehicles in international traffic shall satisfy the provisions of Annex 5 to this Convention.
It shall also be in good working order.

Annex 5
TECHNICAL CONDITIONS CONCERNING MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAILERS
1. Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 3, paragraph 2 (a) and
Article 39, paragraph 1 of this Convention any Contracting Party may, with respect to motor vehicles which it registers and to trailers which it allows on the road under its domestic legislation, lay down rules which supplement, or are stricter than, the provisions of this annex. All vehicles in international traffic must meet the technical requirements in force in their country of registration when they first entered into service.

That requires all legislation from the country of origin be followed and as such tax or anything else required to be legal in Ireland must be complied with to be legal in other countries.

The "domestic legislation" of a Contracting Party means the entire body of national or local laws and regulations in force in the territory of that Contracting Party;

To Elland Back

CiniO wrote: »

I don't feel comfortable confessing to my insurance company about where and when I go, what I do, and where I keep my cars.
This should be none of their business.

Do you not already tell your insurance company your address, your age, what you do for a living, your driving history etc. ???

You are withholding information on they would base their premium, levels of cover offered, or acceptance of cover in the first place. But you already know this, or why would you not tell them? It's non-disclosure, end of.

JackHeuston

Tigger wrote: »

When I renew my tax they ask for my insurance
If I need tax to renew insurance I will be stuck in a loop

Same thing here. Imported my car to Ireland, when I was paying the very first tax it asked me to provide the insurance policy number, and I couldn't go on without it.

When buying the insurance policy, the company had in the terms that the car needed NCT and tax payed.

I bought the policy, then payed the tax as soon as I got the policy number. If the insurance company wanted to see the tax disc before allowing me so kindly to be covered, I don't know what would have happened. Sounds like a stupid loop to me anyway.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

J.pilkington

I'd say the insurance company came to a similar conclusion to 90% of the posters here.

Ie I have no clue what this lad is at, he is throwing all sorts of 'facts' at me and I smell a rat(not telling the full story and only releasing bits of information at a time) so let's gather all the facts ourselves (requested documents) and then we can try progress

Victor

Tigger wrote: »

When I renew my tax they ask for my insurance
If I need tax to renew insurance I will be stuck in a loop

They are looking for the existing or recent tax.

The OP is, at best, being obstreperous.

PsychoSue

CiniO wrote: »

OK. So a question for you.
Let's say you live in Dublin.
But you have a car which you parked at your parents address in Galway.
You insure it, but for the first 2 months keep it at your parents address before you arrange parking space for it in your place in Dublin.

Would you really be calling your insurer to tell them, that your car will be kept in Galway for a first while?

YES
It's quite simple the policy should be taken out with the address in galway as that is where the car is. When a space is found and its brought to Dublin then you contact the insurance company and change the residing address.
It asks when you are taking out a policy if this is where the car will be parked/stored as the address you give will determine the policy price based on a risk assessment.
Transferring insurance to a car that is currently in Poland and not disclosing its current location to the insurer is non disclosure. You may think it's your prerogative to withhold that info but it's something they should be told and if it's as clear cut as you say then why not just tell them???

If the car has never been in Ireland before maybe they know this (somehow) and are requesting the tax and nct in a bid to rattle you and push you to disclose the fact that it's not in the country....

Liam McPoyle

The insurer I work for have a system in place thats tied into the DoE so when someone is getting a new quote, if the NCT is out its flagged. Its reasonable to assume that other insurers will have a similar system and the car has been flagged as not having a valid NCT.

Requesting a copy of the tax and NCT is likely their way of saying they know something fishy is afoot.

The fact of the matter is that the OP tried to pull a fast one with the insurer and has gotten caught with his pants down.

Ive no sympathy, same as I have no sympathy for anyone that deliberately deceives or tries to deceive their insurer.

GM228

Business Cat wrote: »

The insurer I work for have a system in place thats tied into the DoE so when someone is getting a new quote, if the NCT is out its flagged. Its reasonable to assume that other insurers will have a similar system and the car has been flagged as not having a valid NCT.

Requesting a copy of the tax and NCT is likely their way of saying they know something fishy is afoot.

The fact of the matter is that the OP tried to pull a fast one with the insurer and has gotten caught with his pants down.

Ive no sympathy, same as I have no sympathy for anyone that deliberately deceives or tries to deceive their insurer.

Insurance companies have access to the NVDF, but just exactly how much info they can access seems to be a mystery.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Driver info only, so penalty points and disqualifications.

Not just driver info, they can access vehicle information for quotes (same as Cartell etc), that's how the quick find car works, but I wonder then can they also access the tax, NCT section etc or is it just the actual vehicle details?

I know they have access to any endorsements on a licence, but is that definitely all?

Some seem to believe they can access more than that, but have never seen anything to support that.

To Elland Back

Insurers are reluctant to divulge exactly how they access information. They're not going to give the heads up to people set on trying to defraud them

GM228

JackHeuston wrote: »

When buying the insurance policy, the company had in the terms that the car needed NCT and tax payed.

I had a policy many years ago which also had such a specific requirement for tax, but AFAIK this specific requirement was dropped from Irish insurers.

Usually the only specific requirement in modern policies is that the vehicle is "roadworthy".

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

To Elland Back wrote: »

Insurers are reluctant to divulge exactly how they access information. They're not going to give the heads up to people set on trying to defraud them

Insurers were given direct access to the NVDF (for checking penalty points) under the Road Traffic Bill 2013, then in 2014 they were given access to other info such as the reason why points were applies -i.e for speeding etc.

It's possible they have gained more access to the system since under a Ministerial Order, but nobody knows for certain.

To Elland Back

GM228 wrote: »

Insurers were given direct access to the NVDF (for checking endorsements) under the Road Traffic Bill 2013.

It's possible they have gained more access to the system since under a Ministerial Order, but nobody knows for certain.

All I'm saying is that insurers use a combination of complex and very simple methods to counteract fraudsters and it can be quite good fun at times

Tigger

Victor wrote: »

They are looking for the existing or recent tax.

The OP is, at best, being obstreperous.

I see
I have the surprised

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

It is always tought that a vehicle must be road legal in the origin country to be road legal in another and it seems that is in fact the case.

Technical requirements also includes "the entire body of national or local laws and regulation".

I had to clarify before posting this, but this was advised by a colleague of my brother in the traffic core who knows his stuff.

Driving a foreign registered vehicle in another state is legally defined as "international traffic".

The regulations regarding the use of motor vehicles in international traffic for countries which ratified The Geneva Convention on Road Traffic 1949 or The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968 are legally set by those conventions.

A few countries including Ireland and the UK and a few others are still under the convention of 1949 whilst Poland and most other countries use the convention of 1968.

Any country which allows vehicles from another country under the 1949 convention does so under the following condition:-



Whilst that statement in itself isn't too clear on tax in itself, it does make tax a requirement from Irish vehicles (and possibly other countries depending on how their laws are construed) as tax comes under the Vehicle Registration and Licensing Regulations, and so valid motor tax is required to satisfy the "registered by a Contracting State or subdivision thereof in the manner prescribed by its legislation" requirement of Article 18. This is how the UK (Northern Ireland) are legally able to seize Irish registered cars for no tax even though the tax itself is not a UK matter according to him. In other words they aren't seized for lack of tax, but rather for not being legally in their jurisdiction.

However, Poland and most orher EU countries and states signed to the conventions are now legally bound by the convention of 1968 which is more clear and specifically states a vehicle must satisfy all legal requirements from its country of registration to be legal as "international traffic".





That requires all legislation from the country of origin be followed and as such tax or anything else required to be legal in Ireland must be complied with to be legal in other countries.

Hi.
Sorry for coming back so late, but I was away for a while.

You did a good bit of browsing - fair play for that.


However I think, you completely misunderstood the meaning of quotation from Annex 5 from 1968 Vienna Convention (which you quoted).

Annex 5
TECHNICAL CONDITIONS CONCERNING MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAILERS
1. Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 3, paragraph 2 (a) and
Article 39, paragraph 1 of this Convention any Contracting Party may, with respect to motor vehicles which it registers and to trailers which it allows on the road under its domestic legislation, lay down rules which supplement, or are stricter than, the provisions of this annex. All vehicles in international traffic must meet the technical requirements in force in their country of registration when they first entered into service.

In short, annex 5 describes minimum technical specifications (which relates to vehicle construction issues) which every contracting party of the convention is meant to require from vehicles registered on their terorrity.

You can see the whole annex 5 in here.
It describes all requirements in relation to braking, lighting, horn, tyres, speedometer, silencers, etc...

First part of this quotation which is this one:

Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 3, paragraph 2 (a) and
Article 39, paragraph 1 of this Convention any Contracting Party may, with respect to motor vehicles which it registers and to trailers which it allows on the road under its domestic legislation, lay down rules which supplement, or are stricter than, the provisions of this annex.

all it says that each country can put stricter requirements for vehicles, so f.e. they can require each vehicle registered on their own terrority to have quiter exhaust than required by convention, or stronger brakes, or better tyres, or extra fire extinguisher to be carried in the vehicle.

Next part:

All vehicles in international traffic must meet the technical requirements in force in their country of registration when they first entered into service.

is just releiving foreign vehicles from those extra domestic requirements like above.

There's absolutely nothing about anything else than purely technical requirements which apply to vehicle construction, and absolutely nothing which could relate to vehicle taxation.

CiniO

To Elland Back wrote: »

Do you not already tell your insurance company your address, your age, what you do for a living, your driving history etc. ???

You are withholding information on they would base their premium, levels of cover offered, or acceptance of cover in the first place. But you already know this, or why would you not tell them? It's non-disclosure, end of.

Well that's quite just my point here.
They might just not be happy to provide a cover for me, based on fact that I keep the car abroad. And that's the a very silly setup, as in normal world, they shouldn't be allowed to do that.
I should be allowed to keep my car wherever I want, and it should be none of their business.
In short that's how it works through most of EU. Unfortunately except Ireland.

CiniO

PsychoSue wrote: »

YES
It's quite simple the policy should be taken out with the address in galway as that is where the car is. When a space is found and its brought to Dublin then you contact the insurance company and change the residing address.
It asks when you are taking out a policy if this is where the car will be parked/stored as the address you give will determine the policy price based on a risk assessment.

What if someone is just travelling around Ireland for a year, and car is kept at different place every day?
What will insurer say - that they cancel a cover due to lack of permanent address?
Allowing insurer to ask things like that is just a silly system which limits people's freedom and it should be banned.


[QUOTE[
Transferring insurance to a car that is currently in Poland and not disclosing its current location to the insurer is non disclosure. You may think it's your prerogative to withhold that info but it's something they should be told and if it's as clear cut as you say then why not just tell them???

If the car has never been in Ireland before maybe they know this (somehow) and are requesting the tax and nct in a bid to rattle you and push you to disclose the fact that it's not in the country....[/QUOTE]
Car has been in Ireland with previous owner, and I'm sure they have no way of actually knowing it's abroad at the moment so this surely wasn't the reason they asked me for tax and nct.

Cookie_Monster

CiniO wrote: »

I should be allowed to keep my car wherever I want, and it should be none of their business.

where you (normally) keep it is a key risk factor though, of course it's their business.

MaryAntoinette

CiniO wrote: »

I should be allowed to keep my car wherever I want, and it should be none of their business.

Lol, get your head out of imagination land lad.

CiniO

Business Cat wrote: »

The insurer I work for have a system in place thats tied into the DoE so when someone is getting a new quote, if the NCT is out its flagged. Its reasonable to assume that other insurers will have a similar system and the car has been flagged as not having a valid NCT.

Requesting a copy of the tax and NCT is likely their way of saying they know something fishy is afoot.

The fact of the matter is that the OP tried to pull a fast one with the insurer and has gotten caught with his pants down.

Ive no sympathy, same as I have no sympathy for anyone that deliberately deceives or tries to deceive their insurer.

I tried to pull a fast one?
I live in Ireland, I bought Irish registered car, and obviously I want to insure it in Ireland, as Ireland is the only country I can insure Irish registered car.
Fact that car is abroad, should make no difference here, as I though we have a freedom of moving goods withing the EU.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

I had a policy many years ago which also had such a specific requirement for tax, but AFAIK this specific requirement was dropped from Irish insurers.

Usually the only specific requirement in modern policies is that the vehicle is "roadworthy".

Actually most Irish insurers specifically say in their policies that car must have NCT.
Aviva is one of few, which don't have such requirement in their policy documents.

CiniO

MaryAntoinette wrote: »

Lol, get your head out of imagination land lad.

Well, that's not imagination land.
That's how it works in most of civilized world. Unfortunately not in Ireland

Liam McPoyle

CiniO wrote: »

I tried to pull a fast one?
I live in Ireland, I bought Irish registered car, and obviously I want to insure it in Ireland, as Ireland is the only country I can insure Irish registered car.
Fact that car is abroad, should make no difference here, as I though we have a freedom of moving goods withing the EU.

Come on man, you aren't fooling anyone.

You are one of the people in this forum that I would consider to be very knowledgeable when it comes to motor insurance so to suggest you thought you could keep an Irish insured and registered car in any EU country, for an undetermined period of time and the insurer wouldn't care is frankly ridiculous and I don't believe you genuinely thought it was kosher.

galwaytt

Kristopherus wrote: »

If the car is declared off the road, no insurer will insure it for being so. If the owner is worried about it being stolen or burnt, then they should include it in their property insurance. That way it would be treated the same as the family tv, if it were stolen.

Factually incorrect. I do this with two cars every year (AXA).