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David Norris - Social welfare shouldn't be spent on alcohol
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KomradeBishop wrote: »Yes there is an excuse: When not enough jobs are made available.
You can't blame any unemployed person, for there not being enough jobs to go round.
But there was jobs, loads of jobs, we were flying people in from abroad to take the jobs at one stage. If you havent worked in the past 10 years, its by choice0 -
I'm not saying anything about 1 person over 'x' amount of time, I'm saying:LexieOnRale wrote: »You're telling me that 1 person in 8 years of searching for a job couldn't find one?
When there aren't enough jobs to go around, There. Aren't. Enough. Jobs.
When you have unemployment levels like we've seen for almost 8 years, you will have long term unemployed, who are involuntarily unemployed.
When we are at any level of unemployment, that is not at or either close to full employment, then you completely lose the ability to distinguish scroungers from the 'genuine' involuntarily unemployed.0 -
But there was jobs, loads of jobs, we were flying people in from abroad to take the jobs at one stage. If you havent worked in the past 10 years, its by choice
You mean low paid below the breadline jobs ? filled by people from Poland ? Oh lets chuck in a Red herring some came as software developers... Odd that we are crying out for decent ones now cant be found has been like that for years.0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »That's not really true though - in the major provider markets that you can't avoid, there are only a handful of providers to choose from - and each usually as crap as the other, just in different ways.
The idea that there is always an issue-free provider to choose is a myth - choice doesn't mean a thing when your options are limited; a bit like what Henry Ford said:
"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
People don't even have a clue of what the salaries are in the charities they donate to, nevermind the service providers - can anyone here cite the salaries in a major service provider, without Googling? Doubt it.
No though - people will argue for pages and pages over the minutiae of how a dole recipient spends their money, with barely a thought put into how money they mandatorily have to spend elsewhere goes...
Well thats all well and good, I dont really care to debate the ins and outs of consumer choices here but theres a large difference between paying a private company for a service I want (or need in this case) and paying tax so someone can sit at home drinking cans of beer all day. I pay tax for education, health, policing, a decent park to bring my kids, to support other public services that I use or if not personally use, benefit society as a whole. What charities I donate to is my choice, I am not being made give X amount of my income to fund charities I may or may not agree with.
I dont want a single cent of my tax put towards a career job dodger. Do you have any concept of what its like for a nurse, doctor, Garda or prison officer to be slogging away treating / arresting / minding pure lowlife scum knowing that part of their wages will be removed to provide this person with a house, bus pass, reduced fees, free doctor, free a&e and 190 a week to drink. Worse still if thats not one you care about, the victim of these people. Seriously., how many phones and bikes are being nicked every year in Dublin? How many houses are being broken into in this country? You telling me these people are A, holding down fulltime jobs or B, genuinely looking for jobs?0 -
There are not enough jobs. Look at the stats:But there was jobs, loads of jobs, we were flying people in from abroad to take the jobs at one stage. If you havent worked in the past 10 years, its by choice
http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/ireland-unemployment-rate.png?s=ieuert&v=201512072103m&d1=20050101&d2=20151231
Particularly, vacancies per unemployed (and if anyone has an issue with the source of these stats, I can root out EU based stats which show this figure as even worse):
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2014/09/02/latest-data-on-the-vacancy-rate/
More proof - people available to work but not seeking a job; we have one of the best figures in Europe, being almost on-par with Germany:
https://rwer.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/graph-of-the-day-people-available-to-work-but-not-seeking-a-job/0 -
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Well thats all well and good, I dont really care to debate the ins and outs of consumer choices here but theres a large difference between paying a private company for a service I want (or need in this case) and paying tax so someone can sit at home drinking cans of beer all day. I pay tax for education, health, policing, a decent park to bring my kids, to support other public services that I use or if not personally use, benefit society as a whole. What charities I donate to is my choice, I am not being made give X amount of my income to fund charities I may or may not agree with.
I dont want a single cent of my tax put towards a career job dodger. Do you have any concept of what its like for a nurse, doctor, Garda or prison officer to be slogging away treating / arresting / minding pure lowlife scum knowing that part of their wages will be removed to provide this person with a house, bus pass, reduced fees, free doctor, free a&e and 190 a week to drink. Worse still if thats not one you care about, the victim of these people. Seriously., how many phones and bikes are being nicked every year in Dublin? How many houses are being broken into in this country? You telling me these people are A, holding down fulltime jobs or B, genuinely looking for jobs?
dole is 188pw actually, they on a liquid diet ? They would soon be dead me thinks. 1 out of 10 tbh0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »I'm not saying anything about 1 person over 'x' amount of time, I'm saying:
When there aren't enough jobs to go around, There. Aren't. Enough. Jobs.
When you have unemployment levels like we've seen for almost 8 years, you will have long term unemployed, who are involuntarily unemployed.
When we are at any level of unemployment, that is not at or either close to full employment, then you completely lose the ability to distinguish scroungers from the 'genuine' involuntarily unemployed.
And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.0 -
darkpagandeath wrote: »You mean low paid below the breadline jobs ? filled by people from Poland ?
ah ha, and theres the rub. Jobs that were beneath us. No, I dont mean poverty jobs as Ireland has a minimum wage. Why is McDonalds full of foreign staff?
Some possible did, most did not. I dunno, maybe the likes of yourself just doesnt leave the house that often but if you did you would have met many many Polish and eastern european staff in fast food, building, security and retail positions. Not high paid but paid nevertheless.darkpagandeath wrote: »Oh lets chuck in a Red herring some came as software developers... Odd that we are crying out for decent ones now cant be found has been like that for years.
If you went to a carehome or a medical centre you would no doubt encounter African and Asian staff, again they may never be millionaires but its honest money for honest work.0 -
LexieOnRale wrote: »And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.
Unfortunately the dole office make it incredibly hard to take part time work.0 -
darkpagandeath wrote: »Unfortunately the dole office make it incredibly hard to take part time work.
So what? Take no work?0 -
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KomradeBishop wrote: »There are not enough jobs. Look at the stats:
http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/ireland-unemployment-rate.png?s=ieuert&v=201512072103m&d1=20050101&d2=20151231
Particularly, vacancies per unemployed (and if anyone has an issue with the source of these stats, I can root out EU based stats which show this figure as even worse):
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2014/09/02/latest-data-on-the-vacancy-rate/
More proof - people available to work but not seeking a job; we have one of the best figures in Europe, being almost on-par with Germany:
https://rwer.wordpress.com/2015/03/29/graph-of-the-day-people-available-to-work-but-not-seeking-a-job/
You are either deliberately missing the point or just not able to grasp the debate. Your quoting figures for now, the recent times. We have consistantly stated that in 2000, 2001, 2002, etc until 2007 there were far more jobs than Irish staff willing to take them thusforeign staff recruited. I and other posters
have stated LONG TERM PREDATING THE ENCONOMIC CRASH UNEMPLOYED. People with 10+ years.0 -
ah ha, and theres the rub. Jobs that were beneath us. No, I dont mean poverty jobs as Ireland has a minimum wage. Why is McDonalds full of foreign staff?
Some possible did, most did not. I dunno, maybe the likes of yourself just doesnt leave the house that often but if you did you would have met many many Polish and eastern european staff in fast food, building, security and retail positions. Not high paid but paid nevertheless.
If you went to a carehome or a medical centre you would no doubt encounter African and Asian staff, again they may never be millionaires but its honest money for honest work.
Because when 10 of you chip in for a gaff and that you can afford to live barely on the bread line. One does realise the Polish were being readily abused yeah ?0 -
You are either deliberately missing the point or just not able to grasp the debate. Your quoting figures for now, the recent times. We have consistantly stated that in 2000, 2001, 2002, etc until 2007 there were far more jobs than Irish staff willing to take them thusforeign staff recruited. I and other posters
have stated LONG TERM PREDATING THE ENCONOMIC CRASH UNEMPLOYED. People with 10+ years.
Lets do the maths.... 4% of the working age Irish population is ? We will have to - a section of society as well that has 90% unemployment and that puts you down to normal democratic countries dole rate. 3% unemployment is the average of full employment. I think there is only one person here not understanding.0 -
darkpagandeath wrote: »dole is 188pw actually, they on a liquid diet ? They would soon be dead me thinks. 1 out of 10 tbh
Thats what you took from my post? Thats all you can counter with, I point at people who steal high end valuables and you then argue that the dole is 188 so they must be starving? Criminals sell the products they steal!
I have to choose my words carefully here so lets just say I find your last comment rather lacking in reasoned debate as by your view, all junkies must starve to death because theu sure as **** put 188 into their arms a weekdarkpagandeath wrote: »Lets do the maths.... 4% of the working age Irish population is ? We will have to - a section of society as well that has 90% unemployment and that puts you down to normal democratic countries dole rate. 3% unemployment is the average of full employment. I think there is only one person here not understanding.
I have no idea what you talking about, the 4% is not 4% of the entire age specific population, medically incapable are removed from the numbers. Its 4% of the capable work force which is higher than your 3%. All irelevent though, we had more jobs than applications. As for 90%, no idea who you are refering to, artists maybe? Please, spit out your comment fully.darkpagandeath wrote: »Because when 10 of you chip in for a gaff and that you can afford to live barely on the bread line. One does realise the Polish were being readily abused yeah ?
So again we come to the arguement that its not to our standard so we turn our noses up? Builders were on bad money now? Security? No sorry, McDonalds and Penneys pay a decent wage and were paying a decent wage in 2002, 2005 and 2006, to both their Irish and Polish staff. They may not be great jobs but McDonalds got me through college and a little beyond until I found what was apparantly a rare animal, a job. strange nhow I managed 3 or 4 of those during those years and yet all those people couldnt even get 1, ever and no, the polish were not being abused. I have no doubt some employers took the piss but there was no mass raping and pillaging of the Polish newcomers.
You have looked down your nose on more than one type of job now in your posts as being below you for various reasons. Whats the criteria you set before you will get out of bed and go to an interview?0 -
If you're paying money towards an essential service, provided privately, that you simply can't avoid (e.g. most utility services), and where the market of providers is so small as to make the idea of 'choice' more of an illusion than a reality, then what you're paying is really not all that different to a tax.Well thats all well and good, I dont really care to debate the ins and outs of consumer choices here but theres a large difference between paying a private company for a service I want (or need in this case) and paying tax so someone can sit at home drinking cans of beer all day. I pay tax for education, health, policing, a decent park to bring my kids, to support other public services that I use or if not personally use, benefit society as a whole. What charities I donate to is my choice, I am not being made give X amount of my income to fund charities I may or may not agree with.
I dont want a single cent of my tax put towards a career job dodger. Do you have any concept of what its like for a nurse, doctor, Garda or prison officer to be slogging away treating / arresting / minding pure lowlife scum knowing that part of their wages will be removed to provide this person with a house, bus pass, reduced fees, free doctor, free a&e and 190 a week to drink. Worse still if thats not one you care about, the victim of these people. Seriously., how many phones and bikes are being nicked every year in Dublin? How many houses are being broken into in this country? You telling me these people are A, holding down fulltime jobs or B, genuinely looking for jobs?
So apply your logic consistently: Why aren't you giving out about outrageous salaries or overcharging, in these industries? They have a far bigger monetary impact on your pocket, than some stereotyped 'scrounger' buying beer on the weekend...
People have their morals all arseways on this issue really, and ignore the moral wrongs of rent-seeking behaviour in major unavoidable industries (where the payments we have to make to them are analogous to taxes), and focus on - frankly insignificant - moral issues, such as petty things, like what dole recipients spend their money on (even though there is no practical way to enforce any restrictions on how they spend their money, given that they can just use barter to evade the restrictions...).
There are far greater moral concerns to be worried about - except they take a bit more reading and understanding, than the standard tabloid-esque stereotype of dole recipients do.0 -
Thats what you took from my post? Thats all you can counter with, I point at people who steal high end valuables and you then argue that the dole is 188 so they must be starving? Criminals sell the products they steal!
I have to choose my words carefully here so lets just say I find your last comment rather lacking in reasoned debate as by your view, all junkies must starve to death because theu sure as **** put 188 into their arms a week
Them claiming the dole is not the issue my friend. Unless you are saying there are large numbers and has a peer reviewed study to back up their wild accusation.0 -
LexieOnRale wrote: »You're telling me that 1 person in 8 years of searching for a job couldn't find one?
If someone's unemployed for that length of time, they might have other problems that you aren't aware of. Being unemployed is confidence-sapping at the best of times, so if they didn't have problems to begin with, they probably will after eight years. This is why I think the Department of Social Protection should focus on helping people with their mental health, rather than just pushing them from workfare to Fás courses to welfare in an endless bureaucratic loop.0 -
On a side note, Can anyone tell me how to claim the dole with no fixed address to be means tested at ? You know for all the junkies that apparently do this.0
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You're wrong. There are objectively not enough jobs to go around, and I've provided ample stats to back this.LexieOnRale wrote: »And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.
You're mistaking anecdote for evidence: The raw stats prove that there are not enough jobs.0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »You're wrong. There are objectively not enough jobs to go around, and I've provided ample stats to back this.
You're mistaking anecdote for evidence: The raw stats prove that there are not enough jobs.
Get out with the stats and sense... :pac::pac::pac:0 -
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Nothing was stated about 'predating the economic crash' - and that was almost 8 years ago now, that's long-term...You are either deliberately missing the point or just not able to grasp the debate. Your quoting figures for now, the recent times. We have consistantly stated that in 2000, 2001, 2002, etc until 2007 there were far more jobs than Irish staff willing to take them thusforeign staff recruited. I and other posters
have stated LONG TERM PREDATING THE ENCONOMIC CRASH UNEMPLOYED. People with 10+ years.0 -
darkpagandeath wrote: »On a side note, Can anyone tell me how to claim the dole with no fixed address to be means tested at ? You know for all the junkies that apparently do this.
Yes, you use a hostel as your address, most commonly the Simon community or if your 'officially' homeless your card states care of the homeless persons unit. Go outside one day, just for me. Got to the GPO Thursday morning at 8am and ask them what address they use.
In fact, they will even do it for you as per their site:
"The Homeless Persons Unit (HPU) provides payments under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme and offers advice on your social welfare entitlements.Call the HPU at: 1800 724 724". (http://www.homelessdublin.ie/)
That number by the way if the number you ring if you need a bed for the night. You ring just before 9pm on that occasion and they arrange a location to pick you up. Usually the GPO, Store Street or Pearse Street Garda station in Dublin city and then take you to an allocated hostel bed. Its not preallocated but done on a call and provide system.
Now, seeing as I clearly have far far more experience dealing with them and your that clueless that you didnt realise junkies and the homeless could actually claim in the first place, I shall bid you farewell.KomradeBishop wrote: »Nothing was stated about 'predating the economic crash' - and that was almost 8 years ago now, that's long-term...
You are arguing with 2 people on this but reread the thread, its been stated a number of times. I am specifically stating those that have not had a job even in the good days and I remember them well apparantly being a but older than yourself. If you wanted a job in 2001 and 2002 you got one simple enough.KomradeBishop wrote: »Why aren't you giving out about outrageous salaries or overcharging, in these industries? They have a far bigger monetary impact on your pocket, than some stereotyped 'scrounger' buying beer on the weekend...
You are assuming I dont complain about the companies. I don't in this thread because its not relevent. You just insist on bringing it in. Im waiting on Irish water to make an appearance.KomradeBishop wrote: »If you're paying money towards an essential service, provided privately, that you simply can't avoid (e.g. most utility services), and where the market of providers is so small as to make the idea of 'choice' more of an illusion than a reality, then what you're paying is really not all that different to a tax.
Granted but I am as I stated already, recieving a service for that tax. What exact service is the unemployed getting drunk providing?KomradeBishop wrote: »People have their morals all arseways on this issue really, and ignore the moral wrongs of rent-seeking behaviour in major unavoidable industries (where the payments we have to make to them are analogous to taxes), and focus on - frankly insignificant - moral issues, such as petty things, like what dole recipients spend their money on (even though there is no practical way to enforce any restrictions on how they spend their money, given that they can just use barter to evade the restrictions...).
You are again assuming, why cant people be outraged about a number of issues? Why is it A or B? Why cant people be pissed off about the dole AND a number of other issues. I pay 7% pension levy, Im pissed off about that as well. Im pissed off that our hospitals are woefully overstretched and theres old women waiting hours on trolleys. Im pissed off that taxes are going towards criminal education systems instead of prisons. Im pissed off that the playground nearest my home was burnt to a crisp and theres no money for replacement but yet theres money for more bull**** FAS courses in how to arrange flowers or some other ****e.
I agree that its not enforceable and in reality as much as I complain, I dont want to see a child starve or do without because the parents a **** so inevitable the system will truck on but this is a forum, for people to talk0 -
I'm sure it's already been said, but in case not......
.....minimum alcohol pricing should not be allowed, and social welfare recipients should be allowed to spend as much of their welfare as they like getting as hammered as they like if that's what they like.0 -
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KomradeBishop wrote: »That's a load of nonsense - virtually nobody in this country goes without electricity, you're doing your 'devils advocate' nonsense again, where you push an argument even you can't credibly believe.
If you want to do that devils advocate nonsense, don't do it with me, thanks - it's pretty insulting to expect others to take and debate with your argument seriously, when the argument is so facetious to begin with,
Don't tell me what I'm doing. Thank you very much.
You're trying to make a comparison between voluntary payment for a service and taxation where the comparison is invalid.
If I'm not happy with how my electricity company spends my money I can change companies or not avail of any of their services if I choose to. If I'm not happy with how the government chooses to spend my money I can't change providers short of leaving the country and even then I'll be taxed on any money domicile in Ireland.0 -
Whenever someone says there aren't enough jobs I say well then why not make a job?LexieOnRale wrote: »And I'm saying there were jobs to be found if you wanted one badly enough. I left school just before the recession started, left college in the thick of the recession, and always had work until for personal reasons I had to take a break from work. It wasn't always full time work, but I had something. As did most of my friends. As did three older ladies I know who went back and did a fas course to retrain when they were made redundant and they also picked up work.
There was work there to be found, may not have been full time, or ideal, or great pay, but there was something.
Get a yard brush and go round to all the person's neighbours and ask if they want their yard swept. Get a basin and sponge and offer to wash their car, or mow their grass, fix their toilet, rake their leaves. The idea that we pay people for nothing is ridiculous.0 -
I 100% absolutely disagree.Deleted User wrote: »I'm sure it's already been said, but in case not......
.....minimum alcohol pricing should not be allowed, and social welfare recipients should be allowed to spend as much of their welfare as they like getting as hammered as they like if that's what they like.0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »You're wrong. There are objectively not enough jobs to go around, and I've provided ample stats to back this.
You're mistaking anecdote for evidence: The raw stats prove that there are not enough jobs.
I'm sorry but you are way off the mark there. I work in social welfare and there are loads of jobs. Irish people will just not take them. We point out jobs to people all the time and try and encourage them to apply and go for interviews etc but they won't if they feel they could get a better job. Pride has them sitting at home bitching about the economy, nama, the government, bankers, the Germans and public servants and before you know it they are on the dole for a year. On the other hand I have seen Polish and other European nationals with MBA's and PhD's take cleaning or shop work just to stay working. The Irish, who used to be so hard working, have turned into a bunch of spoilt brats.
Before you start saying typical opinionated Civil Servant in his cushy permanent job, I have worked in the private sector and been unemployed so I know what it's like. I also run my own business in my spare time. There is work if you want it!!0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Whenever someone says there aren't enough jobs I say well then why not make a job?
Get a yard brush and go round to all the person's neighbours and ask if they want their yard swept. Get a basin and sponge and offer to wash their car, or mow their grass, fix their toilet, rake their leaves. The idea that we pay people for nothing is ridiculous.
Only a person with no real life experience would make this statement.
It's rough, crude and utterly disparaging of people who you know absolutely nothing about.
Its hyperbole that you have read and heard but have never lived a minute of.
To even suggest the above shows how little you really know about the entire thing.
Your post simply comes across as you feel superior to those who are unemployed and deem them to be inferior in every shape way and form to despite the fact that they may have been made unemployed after 50 years of solid work and have paid their taxes to ALLOW them to collect unemployment payments.
Your opinion and attitude are infantile and simplistic beyond belief.
The world may never bite you on the ass considering your view suggests a certain privilege.
Thats a privilege you may not have earned so its easy to spout against all else.
Empathy is something learned. And when needed, most treasured.0 -
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Am I the only one who thinks that social welfare - especially jobseekers allowance should be an emergency supplement and not a permanent source of income allowing for unnecessary and counterproductive things?
I will have nothing against funding people who will be unfortunate enough to loose a job, but drinking for societies money while also not contributing anything is just too much in my opinion.0
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