Breastfeeding Mom in restaurant stare off...

One eyed Jack

Samaris wrote: »

That the whole thing went viral is more a symptom of today's obsession with tiny incidents being talked about all over the world than anything else. Maybe she was "attention-seeking", maybe she wasn't, but when you get right down to it, she wasn't actually doing anything wrong.

See, here's the thing - she must have, on some level, felt that she was doing something wrong, because she chose to make a point of it (claiming she was motivated by breastfeeding mothers everywhere, who apparently needed her to stand up for them even though most women are able to breastfeed in public not a bother!), and she got pure paranoid about it then claiming someone was looking at her in disgust.

We'll never know what way the other woman was looking at her, but paranoia can fuel all sorts of misinterpretations.

kylith

Can someone please explain exactly how breast feeding is inconsiderate?

intheclouds

One eyed Jack wrote: »

See, here's the thing - she must have, on some level, felt that she was doing something wrong, because she chose to make a point of it (claiming she was motivated by breastfeeding mothers everywhere, who apparently needed her to stand up for them even though most women are able to breastfeed in public not a bother!), and she got pure paranoid about it then claiming someone was looking at her in disgust.

We'll never know what way the other woman was looking at her, but paranoia can fuel all sorts of misinterpretations.

Thats a weird logic!

She felt she was doing something wrong because she chose to make a point of it? How does that make sense?

Kev W

NachoBusiness wrote: »

All you're doing is trying to dodge the question as if you answer it honestly, and accept that yes that would be a state of undress and would be wholly inappropriate and unnecessary in order to necessitate breastfeeding, then you would have to concede other users points in the thread. You'd much rather strawman people by implying their argument is that breastfeeding is always inconsiderate.

Unless other users are attempting to make the point that the woman in the Op was naked then I have to concede no such thing. And the contention that breastfeeding in public is inconsiderate has been made on this thread so it's not a strawman.

Very mature and yet another attempt at dodging a point which was put to you. You seem incapable of accepting that there are some women that use breastfeeding in the media, under the guise of making it less taboo, as a means of getting attention. Nobody is saying all women who partake in these stories, articles, docus etc are, but without question there are some where it is quite clear that it is their main goal. In my experience other women can spot this quicker than men. Like I said, you're naive if you think that they all have noble reasons for what they do.

I never said a word about what reasons "they all have".

So what if

some women that use breastfeeding in the media, under the guise of making it less taboo, as a means of getting attention

?

As long as the result is the same (diminishing the taboo), who cares why they're doing it? If I rescue a drowning child because I want my name in the papers more than I want to save the child's life, the child still gets rescued. The motivation is hardly relevant.

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

See, here's the thing - she must have, on some level, felt that she was doing something wrong, because she chose to make a point of it (claiming she was motivated by breastfeeding mothers everywhere, who apparently needed her to stand up for them even though most women are able to breastfeed in public not a bother!), and she got pure paranoid about it then claiming someone was looking at her in disgust.

We'll never know what way the other woman was looking at her, but paranoia can fuel all sorts of misinterpretations.

Well you're just brilliant at telling us what other people think, why they do things and what their plan is, alongside telling breastfeeding women how to do it properly (without exposing more than a nipple) and that pumping is only marvellous. You should really join La Leche International, I'm sure they'd be delighted with an advocate like you.

One eyed Jack

kylith wrote: »

Can someone please explain exactly how breast feeding is inconsiderate?

It isn't, it's people's attitudes can be inconsiderate, and that can apply in any scenario, and if people have this attitude that they are entitled to do something without due consideration for other people, then those people need to come up with an argument as to why they are entitled not to consider other people, but other people must be considerate of them!

Smacks of hypocritical double standards to me tbh. I have no problem with hypocritical double standards personally, but I keep mine to myself.

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It isn't, it's people's attitudes can be inconsiderate, and that can apply in any scenario, and if people have this attitude that they are entitled to do something without due consideration for other people, then those people need to come up with an argument as to why they are entitled not to consider other people, but other people must be considerate of them!

Smacks of hypocritical double standards to me tbh. I have no problem with hypocritical double standards personally, but I keep mine to myself.

How exactly are women breastfeeding supposed to be considerate of others apart from the child they are feeding? Is there any difference in how bottle feeding women should be considerate?

NachoBusiness

Kev W wrote: »

Agreed. Though even the cover describes it as an "extreme".

Oh so if the media publication point out that it's being done for attention seeking reasons, that negates the attention seeking? Yeah, that makes a bunch of sense.

Samaris wrote: »

The act of breastfeeding, which was, I believe, what we were all discussing, is not in itself offensive.

Has ANYBODY so far said it was?

Of course if she did a strip tease on a table while breastfeeding and danced a fandango, people might well find it rather offensive (and also pretty bewildering), but I think the specific act of breastfeeding in the middle of it wouldn't be what people were talking about.

When I put the question I said it would never happen and so quit suggesting that I posed it suggesting anything otherwise. The point is that Kev was implying that the very notion that a woman could be being inconsiderate whilst breastfeeding was wrong. I was obviously trying to make the point that there is a state of undress which everyone would see as being unnecessary and so the only real argument is where the line is, NOT whether it is possible or not.

The act itself is not indecent.

Again, nobody said it was.

"She should be feeding the baby under a shawl!"

See, now you're doing exactly what I was doing. I exaggerated the level of undress with my point and now you are exaggerating the opposite, but yet you played dumb a minute ago and said you didn't know what my point was. Hhmm.

Yep, it's her right to breastfeed in public.

Nobody said it wasn't.

Kev W

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It isn't, it's people's attitudes can be inconsiderate, and that can apply in any scenario, and if people have this attitude that they are entitled to do something without due consideration for other people, then those people need to come up with an argument as to why they are entitled not to consider other people, but other people must be considerate of them!

Smacks of hypocritical double standards to me tbh. I have no problem with hypocritical double standards personally, but I keep mine to myself.

I'm sure you'll agree yourself there's a lot to unravel in that one!
Specifically about the part I've bolded, what exactly is the thing she did without due consideration for other people?

Samaris

Sorry, OEJ, I had edited my previous comment to respond to your earlier comment, but this conversation is so fastmoving that the whole thing had gone onto the next page by the time I was done! So I have partly answered your last comment with my previous one

But there IS a problem that many women HAVE faced, that people think their breastfeeding in public is wrong and indecent - I linked a story a couple of pages back where an NYPD officer confronted a woman breastfeeding in public, accused her of breaking the law (which she wasn't), and eventually grabbed her so roughly that she lost her hold on her child and the baby died of massive head injuries. There ARE problems with this attitude and while this incident is a small and idiotic one, it is symptomatic of a much wider issue. I'm sure thousands of women do it every day without incident, and thousands more do it and get continuous disapproving looks and snide comments that they just don't bother to talk about. But after long enough of it happening, yep, quite likely some people will respond more aggressively. As I said before, people is people and people don't always respond to aggression to them (including passive-aggression) with nobly taking the higher road. And maybe they shouldn't always be expected to.

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

and if people have this attitude that they are entitled to do something without due consideration for other people, then those people need to come up with an argument as to why they are entitled not to consider other people

Other way around actually. If people have the attitude that you need to be considerate of other people when you are doing "X" then those people need to come up with an arguments as to why the people doing "X" need to be considerate.

So with public breast feeding, I have seen no argument (least of all from you) as to why someone doing it needs to be considerate, how, or in what way. That argument is entirely lacking on the thread so far.

Kev W

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Oh so if the media publication point out that it's being done for attention seeking reasons, that negates the attention seeking? Yeah, that makes a bunch of sense.

Not my point at all.

When I put the question I said it would never happen and so quit suggesting that I posed it suggesting anything else. The point is that Kev was implying that the very notion that a woman could be being inconsiderate whilst breastfeeding wrong. I was obviously trying to make the point that there is a state of undress which everyone would see as being unnecessary and so the only real argument is where the line is, NOT whether it is possible or not.

I'm still waiting for you to point out where I've done that.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

Well you're just brilliant at telling us what other people think, why they do things and what their plan is, alongside telling breastfeeding women how to do it properly (without exposing more than a nipple) and that pumping is only marvellous. You should really join La Leche International, I'm sure they'd be delighted with an advocate like you.

I didn't tell anyone what anyone actually thinks, I'm able to make judgements based on the evidence presented, and from my own experience. I never said she actually thought she was doing something wrong, I said she must have felt that way, and that opinion is based upon a judgement call, informed by evidence and experience.

Obviously your perspective differs, and so our interpretation of the evidence will differ. I can respect your opinion though without being smart about it, as that's just unnecessary.

Samaris

NachoBusiness

I quote Ally Dick a few pages ago with the shawl comment. Actually, I paraphrased it slightly rather than going back to get the quote, but it's pretty clear.

I quite noted that you said it'd never happen and I made it clear I did in my previous comment. The sheer fact that it "wouldn't happen" makes the point unnecessary. My hypothetical back was in direct response to the ridiculousness of your straw man hypothetical from before.

Kev has said himself that he is not making the point you're repeatedly accusing him of, and quite frankly, from reading his comments, I don't see him as making the point you're arguing either.

Excellent, we're all agreed it's normal and legal then! So that does rather suggest the first incident of rudeness came from whoever it was staring and making disapproving motions at her. The glare in response may not be dignified, but it's a reasonable enough response to someone being rude to one.

Her breast is exposed. Big whoop. It's very hard to feed a child through a jumper and not all babies will submit to being covered with a shawl. And not all parents might want to go through the rigmarole of keeping a shawl in place, nor should they have to, because, as we've all agreed, breastfeeding is perfectly normal and allowed. To call it attention-seeking not to use one is really pushing it a bit far as well.

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't tell anyone what anyone actually thinks, I'm able to make judgements based on the evidence presented, and from my own experience. I never said she actually thought she was doing something wrong, I said she must have felt that way, and that opinion is based upon a judgement call, informed by evidence and experience.

Obviously your perspective differs, and so our interpretation of the evidence will differ. I can respect your opinion though without being smart about it, as that's just unnecessary.

So how exactly does 'considerate' breastfeeding work and how is it different from bottle feeding in a 'considerate' manner?

topmanamillion

intheclouds wrote: »

A woman who lived on my road growing up used to breast feed each subsequent kid but let the previous ones have a "bitty" - I remember her letting her then 10 or 11 year old son have a "bitty" at one point. That poor child must have serious issues now.

It might sound extreme but I would class that as child abuse. There's no biological reason why a well nourished child (which I'm presuming the child was without beast milk) should need breast milk. It was comforting the mother just as much if not more than her son.
Should certainly be illegal but you'd have every idiot with a twitter page up in arms.

Kev W

topmanamillion wrote: »

It might sound extreme but I would class that as paedophilia. There's no biological reason why a well nourished child (which I'm presuming the child was without beast milk) should need breast milk. It was comforting the mother just as much if not more than her son. Should certainly be illegal but you'd have every idiot with a twitter page up in arms.

You're absolutely right.

That does sound extreme.

topmanamillion

Kev W wrote: »

You're absolutely right.

That does sound extreme.

I changed it to child abuse before reading your message.
I absolutely feel it's child abuse to have a child who can eat solids breast feeding.

intheclouds

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I never said she actually thought she was doing something wrong, I said she must have felt that way...

What is the difference between thinking you are doing something wrong and feeling it?

Samaris

...It actually makes less sense calling it child abuse than paedophilia!

It's -weird-, yes, but unless it's got a definate sexual aspect to it, it really really is not paedophilia, even if it is a bit weird and unnecessary. Actually, a friend of mine as a child was given breast milk because at aged sevenish or so she was very jealous of her new baby brother and it calmed her down a bit. She was also from a culture where children were breastfed to a later age than here. I would consider that -odd-, and probably not the best way to deal with a jealous older sibling, but certainly not paedophilia.

I would say to make it illegal would be the worst sort of example of nanny-stating!

lazygal

topmanamillion wrote: »

I changed it to child abuse before reading your message.
I absolutely feel it's child abuse to have a child who can eat solids breast feeding.

My children both started solids at six months old.

My older child self weaned at 14 months.

My younger child still happily breastfeeds at over two and we'll go until natural weaning, which could easily be four years of age. Am I abusing him by not weaning him from breastmilk?

NachoBusiness

Kev W wrote: »

You could have just asked me that. Yes, it is possible for a mother to be inconsiderate while breastfeeding. She could, for example, stab several other patrons (assuming she has a free hand) while screaming, "THIS IS FOR YOU, NACHO, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN FOR YOU!!!"

Great, at least now you accept that is possible. Now we're getting somewhere. How about you come a little further along the road and I ask you if a woman sitting in a restaurant takes her top off completely to breastfeed. Is that inconsiderate?

In this case however, she did not.

Never said she did.

I draw the line at actual inconsiderate behaviour. Excessive noise, throwing food, murderous rampages, singing "Angels" at the top of one's voice, etc.

More exaggerated points from users who accused me of exaggerating mine.

Perhaps you can point out where exactly I gave you this idea? As far as I can tell I've only commented on whether or not the act of breastfeeding is in itself inconsiderate (it isn't). I have not to the best of my knowledge implied that breastfeeding mothers should enjoy a weird form of diplomatic immunity.

You imply it when you take umbrage at the notion that a woman that was clearly looking for attention, was not.

Kev W wrote: »

As long as the result is the same (diminishing the taboo), who cares why they're doing it? If I rescue a drowning child because I want my name in the papers more than I want to save the child's life, the child still gets rescued. The motivation is hardly relevant.

Well, now you're suggesting two things 1) that these attention seekers actions are diminishing the taboo of breastfeeding and 2) that there is no harm in it. Well for a start I would dispute the notion that such women are lifting the taboo of public breastfeeding but are in fact making it worse, as the vast majority of women who breast breastfeed for breastfeeding sake may very well be seen as attention seekers as a result of these idiots. Secondly, these kids will grow up one day and might not appreciate that they starred in a Channel 4 docu, YouTube videos or were breastfed on the cover of Time magazine and so it might not be the harmless act you are suggesting it is.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It isn't, it's people's attitudes can be inconsiderate, and that can apply in any scenario, and if people have this attitude that they are entitled to do something without due consideration for other people, then those people need to come up with an argument as to why they are entitled not to consider other people, but other people must be considerate of them!

Smacks of hypocritical double standards to me tbh. I have no problem with hypocritical double standards personally, but I keep mine to myself.

You use a lot of words there without actually saying anything.

In what way is breastfeeding inconsiderate?
How does one breastfeed inconsiderately?
How can one breastfeed considerately?
What was this woman doing that was inconsiderate?
How did she not consider other people?
How could she have considered other people?
If an attitude is inconsiderate, but the act itself is not inconsiderate then how is anyone affected?

Maximus Alexander

Ah isn't living in the first world just grand really? Look at the shie we have the privilege of having the time to get upset over.

Kev W

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Great, at least now you accept that is possible. Now we're getting somewhere. How about you come a little further along the road and I ask you if a woman sitting in a restaurant takes her top off completely to breastfeed. Is that inconsiderate?

She would be breaking the law and making a scene, disrupting other patrons. Yes, that would be inconsiderate.

Never said she did.

I know that. I was joking.

More exaggerated points from users who accused me of exaggerating mine.

You asked what I considered inconsiderate, I answered. Sorry for having fun with it.

You imply it when you take umbrage at the notion that a woman that was clearly looking for attention, was not.

No, I don't. They are completely separate notions.

Well, now you're suggesting two things 1) that these attention seekers actions are diminishing the taboo of breastfeeding and 2) there is no harm in it. Well, for a start I would dispute the notion that such women are lifting the taboo of public breastfeeding but are in fact making it worse, as the vast majority of women who breast breastfeed for breastfeeding sake may very well be seen as attention seekers as a result of these idiots

Maybe. likelier the "vast majority" will probably never hear about this story and those that do will have forgotten it in a week like the rest of us. As to your contention that the lady in the OP is an attention seeker, so what? She's running a blog, attention is how they operate. You might as well call Tesco "just money seekers" because they charge for groceries.

and secondly, these kids will grow up one day and might not appreciate that they starred in YouTube videos or were breastfed on the cover of Time and so it can be far from the harmless act you suggest it is.

On the other hand, they may not care at all, they may find it funny, they may take pride in it. We can't really know, can we?

smash

Can we all agree that it's a fantastic breast?

I was on a long distance flight a few weeks ago and the woman sitting next to me started breast feeding her child. I immediately froze and felt very uncomfortable and didn't know where to look or what to do.

BUT, I sucked it up and got on with it (not that type of sucking lol). End of story.

Why do both sides need to make such a big f*cking deal about it? I agree it's not good if it's in broad daylight but at the same time if somebody is doing it, then just don't look, it's not difficult.

Kev W

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree it's not good if it's in broad daylight

Why?

One eyed Jack

kylith wrote: »

You use a lot of words there without actually saying anything.

In what way is breastfeeding inconsiderate?
How does one breastfeed inconsiderately?
How can one breastfeed considerately?
What was this woman doing that was inconsiderate?
How did she not consider other people?
How could she have considered other people?
If an attitude is inconsiderate, but the act itself is not inconsiderate then how is anyone affected?

kylith I leave the answers to those questions up to the individual themselves. If they feel they're not doing anything wrong, then there's no need to make a big deal about someone staring at them. I get stared at all the time for various reasons, and normally it's rude and it's inconsiderate and all the rest of it, but I'm used to it, so I don't care if people want to stare, it's also not illegal to stare at people.

What I certainly don't do, is engage in a childish "stare-down" (not least because they have me at an immediate disadvantage :pac:), but simply because I understand that as socially unacceptable as staring is, people are gonna do it anyway. That, IMO, is what this woman should have done - simply carry on feeding her baby and ignore anyone staring at her for doing so.

It really isn't that difficult to mind your own business if you expect people to mind theirs. The fact is that most people do, they do mind their own business, and I don't go out of my way to draw attention to myself with silly stare-down matches. I don't feel a need to do that because IMO it's simply a waste of my time and energy.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

lazygal wrote: »

My children both started solids at six months old.

My older child self weaned at 14 months.

My younger child still happily breastfeeds at over two and we'll go until natural weaning, which could easily be four years of age. Am I abusing him by not weaning him from breastmilk?

If they're old enough to ask for it, they're too old.