Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

unrealtime

Paul Murphy has been sweeping across the full bACK LINE since JJ left. He is the best at that and will thrive again with something better inside him. One solid player would do and that could be Joyce though I don't know.

Jackie is finished and Brian has been trying to tell him so without actually saying it to him. He placed him in the team earlier in the championship and Jackie cried off. That was the end I thought for him. Jackie will no doubt retire now and can go in a dignified fashion.

citykat

I think it s academic who was or was not brought on. We were below par in too many positions to be in a position to win that game.
The fact we lost isn t a great shock to me. The level of apathy around town in the lead up to the game was something I have never experienced. This constant refrain of Kilkenny s dominance being bad for the game got in on people and I think got through to the players. A common attitude prior to the game was that if we win, good, but if we lose, sure what s the harm; somebody else gets a turn .
These players aren t living in a bubble. They re living among us. I think this apathy is in some way responsible for the performance last Sunday. One indicator for me was the amount of unforced errors by players throughout the team. I don t like singling out players because they were all making these errors but I think of Murphy fumbling the ball over the line, Pender passing a ball straight to a Tipp player; Forgarty missing a one handed spoon completely to name a few. There were many more.

Tipp were worthy winners on the day and maybe our best wouldn t have been good enough anyway. One thing's for sure though, we were a long way from our best last Sunday.

C__MC

One thing that was strange sunday was the amount of space tipp had upfront in comparison to KK. They type of ball being delivered in was also contrasting, kk went for a lot of route one ball while tipp played the spaces i.e bubbles goal.

KK will never go away, their tradition just wont allow it. This is codys' bigggest challenge yet. In 2004 and 10, cork and tipp lost their manager, this time will be different. Tipp peformance on sunday was up there with kk in 2008 and perhaps even better.

At least 3 backs need replacing, Joyce is way to slow for the center. In fairness the ball in was quality to Tipp forwards, but holden and prendergast were miles off their men. It was easy for Tipp, shooting practice with 15 to go.

2017 will be very interesting!

Topcat32

C__MC wrote: »

One thing that was strange sunday was the amount of space tipp had upfront in comparison to KK. They type of ball being delivered in was also contrasting, kk went for a lot of route one ball while tipp played the spaces i.e bubbles goal.

KK will never go away, their tradition just wont allow it. This is codys' bigggest challenge yet. In 2004 and 10, cork and tipp lost their manager, this time will be different. Tipp peformance on sunday was up there with kk in 2008 and perhaps even better.

At least 3 backs need replacing, Joyce is way to slow for the center. In fairness the ball in was quality to Tipp forwards, but holden and prendergast were miles off their men. It was easy for Tipp, shooting practice with 15 to go.

2017 will be very interesting!

Can't agree that Tipp performance was better than 2008, in 2008 it was over after 10 minutes, not sure why 2008 is relevent anyway to be honest.

It depends what you mean be being back, the team is more than capable of being competitive next year but winning 4 of the next 5 all Irelands as per the last two defeats you have mentioned looks unlikely

Whiplash85

Topcat32 wrote: »

Can't agree that Tipp performance was better than 2008, in 2008 it was over after 10 minutes, not sure why 2008 is relevent anyway to be honest.

It depends what you mean be being back, the team is more than capable of being competitive next year but winning 4 of the next 5 all Irelands as per the last two defeats you have mentioned looks unlikely

For Kilkennys All Ireland in 2008 read Tipp's All Ireland in 1989.

Hawkeye6

Average Age of Starting 15 on Sunday
Kilkenny 26.4
Tipperary 25.5

Cornerback1

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Average Age of Starting 15 on Sunday
Kilkenny 26.4
Tipperary 25.5

I know we can all get caught up in stats like this BUT that's interesting!!

Irish Beef

citykat wrote: »

I think it s academic who was or was not brought on. We were below par in too many positions to be in a position to win that game.
The fact we lost isn t a great shock to me. The level of apathy around town in the lead up to the game was something I have never experienced. This constant refrain of Kilkenny s dominance being bad for the game got in on people and I think got through to the players. A common attitude prior to the game was that if we win, good, but if we lose, sure what s the harm; somebody else gets a turn .
These players aren t living in a bubble. They re living among us. I think this apathy is in some way responsible for the performance last Sunday. One indicator for me was the amount of unforced errors by players throughout the team. I don t like singling out players because they were all making these errors but I think of Murphy fumbling the ball over the line, Pender passing a ball straight to a Tipp player; Forgarty missing a one handed spoon completely to name a few. There were many more.

Tipp were worthy winners on the day and maybe our best wouldn t have been good enough anyway. One thing's for sure though, we were a long way from our best last Sunday.

Have to agree with a lot that was said here. I think a lot of our players underperformed on sunday, you'll have days like that. I wouldn't be in any way critical of the players or Cody. And this talk of Tipp winning the next few All Irelands is complete garbage. You have to remember Kilkenny have won the last two ALL Irelands, its very hard to keep that kind of hunger year on year. If Kilkenny had started the game the way they started in the Waterford Replay, I think they would have been in with a chance of winning but they just didn't have that level of intensity on the day. Having said that we could do with a few more option in that backs. Would have liked to see Lennon stay on the starting 15 mid season and give him a bit of experience for the big day.

blackcard

citykat wrote: »

I think it s academic who was or was not brought on. We were below par in too many positions to be in a position to win that game.
The fact we lost isn t a great shock to me. The level of apathy around town in the lead up to the game was something I have never experienced. This constant refrain of Kilkenny s dominance being bad for the game got in on people and I think got through to the players. A common attitude prior to the game was that if we win, good, but if we lose, sure what s the harm; somebody else gets a turn .
These players aren t living in a bubble. They re living among us. I think this apathy is in some way responsible for the performance last Sunday. One indicator for me was the amount of unforced errors by players throughout the team. I don t like singling out players because they were all making these errors but I think of Murphy fumbling the ball over the line, Pender passing a ball straight to a Tipp player; Forgarty missing a one handed spoon completely to name a few. There were many more.

Tipp were worthy winners on the day and maybe our best wouldn t have been good enough anyway. One thing's for sure though, we were a long way from our best last Sunday.

I couldn't agree with you more. You would hardly know last week that we were about to play an all Ireland. There was no buzz around whatsoever. People have become blase about being in an all Ireland as if it is commonplace which indeed it has become. Plus you have all the talk about Kilkenny's dominance being bad for the game. Last year, the celebrations for winning lasted one day. Schools were getting bored of the cup being brought around. Sure that happened almost every year. When the players were being introduced last Sunday, there was only muted applause for the Kilkenny players compared to Tipp. All of this is bound to get through to the players. It is no surprise that we were flat this year. However it was pleasing to see so many at the homecoming. Hopefully we can get the hunger back next year. Not saying that we would have won this year but we would have put up a better performance

Charlie69

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Which they were all day the normally imperious Paul Murphy was getting taken apart for the puck outs in the first half in particular as he was right in front of me. We didn't bring any bite or aggression to our game in defence and you can say what you like about Jackie and his legs but he would have brought a physical presence which we needed he would have brought experience and leadership. This Jackie doesn't have the legs anymore thing was proven to be crap for me anyway when I was talking to one of our players last night he couldn't believe Jackie wasn't starting on Sunday. He said he was going so well over the last month. I'd heard this before the team was named but in such a roundabout way you wouldn't be sure it's true but the player told be last night said every forward that went in on him for the last few weeks got taken apart.

As another lad pointed out to me there wasn't 1 yellow card and to be honest the only incident that deserved one from our players was a challenge from Wally. We've been accused of playing "over to the edge" for years which I never thought we did but we were always very close to it which is where you need to be. We were so far from the edge on Sunday our lads wouldn't have been able to see it with binoculars. I'd say there wasn't a Tipp player in Thurles last night with a bruise. I'm not saying we should be going out to hurt opposition players but Jesus these lads need to get a bit more physical and intense with their opposite number let them know their in for a tough day when that ball comes in.

Anyway rant over.

Absolutely spot on, couldn't believe Jackie didn't get a run, he was going very well in training and as you say he would have brought a physical presence and a bit of leadership. He never had much pace anyway and wouldn't have tolerated the half back's and midfield leaving the full back line so exposed.

Listen Tipperary were superb and it's very possible that whatever Cody and his selectors tried on the day wouldn't have worked anyway, but to watch us lose our shape to that extent and get torn to shreds all day without trying to address the situation leaves me baffled to be honest.

Clonmel1000

The only talk honestly of Tipp winning the next few all Ireland's is from Kilkenny people trying to build up a siege mentality. People in Tipp are relieved that we finally put in a performance to beat our greatest rivals and the greatest team in the history of the game. There's no talk of domination of anything we are just relieved and happy to have won. I'd have absolutely no fear that KK and Tipp will be the teams to beat next year. Two colossus of the game.

fed up sick and tired

Motivator wrote: »

Some crazy decisions from the manager today. I think he's lost it.

Hogan - should have been taken off.

Joyce - got cleaned should have been gone at half time.

Prendergast - the less said the better.

Holden - cleaned.

Worst kk team for a long time, Cody has a job on his hands now. Tipp performance better than kk in 2008. Nice to see such a great team like tipp win like that today.

Motivator posts, but edited by rebel girl 15...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100903392&postcount=2470

Your motivational skills are required a lot more urgently, closer to home.

Bye.

mickmackey1

blackcard wrote: »

I couldn't agree with you more. You would hardly know last week that we were about to play an all Ireland. There was no buzz around whatsoever. People have become blase about being in an all Ireland as if it is commonplace which indeed it has become. Plus you have all the talk about Kilkenny's dominance being bad for the game. Last year, the celebrations for winning lasted one day. Schools were getting bored of the cup being brought around. Sure that happened almost every year. When the players were being introduced last Sunday, there was only muted applause for the Kilkenny players compared to Tipp. All of this is bound to get through to the players. It is no surprise that we were flat this year. However it was pleasing to see so many at the homecoming. Hopefully we can get the hunger back next year. Not saying that we would have won this year but we would have put up a better performance

Might be a fair point, but there didn't seem any shortage of motivation v Waterford in the semi. No evidence of apathy in the fightback the first day, and refused to give the starving Decies anything cheaply in the replay.

fyfe79

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Average Age of Starting 15 on Sunday
Kilkenny 26.4
Tipperary 25.5

Darren Gleeson in goal is 36 so he'd bring up the average a bit, I'd think. He might not be a starter next year.

minty81

Two main thoughts on Sunday.

Our half back line were constantly dragged up field following their markers which left huge gaps behind. Most un-kilkenny like. And i can't fathom why? Why are we following Bonner Maher and Dan Mccormack up field when neither are going to score long range points?
This left huge gaps for tipp to hit deliveries into.

Secondly the intensity and workrate of our forwards and midfield was way off our usual standard. We never laid a finger on them. Did any Tipp player wake up sore on Monday morning? I doubt it
Its very rare a team beats kilkenny in the tackle count. We were obliterated 54-36.
Our tackle count in both waterford games was 51 and 54.
Again not to have any pressure on their half backs clearing ball was most un-kilkenny like.

The two issues together created the perfect storm for our full back line to be hung out to dry

Hawkeye6

Good luck to the Kilkenny Senior and Intermediate Camogie Teams in the All-Ireland Finals versus Cork on Sunday in Croke Park.

This is where the genuine Kilkenny GAA supporter will be seen and where the Kilkenny teams has been starved of success. This time in contrast to the hurlers the shoe is on the other foot as Kilkenny will be aiming to win their first Senior title since 1994 against a dominant Cork side. The Intermediates will be trying to win their first title since 2008.

Its an opportunity for us all to show our support for Kilkenny teams regardless of historic success.

Orizio

What are you basing this on? One Minor/All-Ireland in the past five years - hardly suggestive that there is huge talent coming through for KK.

granturismo

blackcard wrote: »

... There was no buzz around whatsoever. People have become blase about being in an all Ireland as if it is commonplace which indeed it has become.... When the players were being introduced last Sunday, there was only muted applause for the Kilkenny players compared to Tipp. All of this is bound to get through to the play... . However it was pleasing to see so many at the homecoming....

Totally agree. The big screen on Sunday showed the noise levels in the stadium when both teams came onto the pitch, Tipp supporters were only a few decibels above Kilkenny's ( I think the difference was 2 dB) but an increase of 3 decibels is a doubling in loudness.

In recent years, Shefflin got a decent cheer when the teams were introduced, followed by Richie Hogan and Tommy Walsh, every other player go a muted response but never as bad as last Sunday.

A few years ago, the FAI planted supporters around stadia who would lead chants. Maybe the supporters club could do something similar. During the second half in particular, Tipp supporters started the 'TIPP, TIPP, TIPP ' chant after scores by both sides, it must have given their players a boost. Kilkenny supporters are vocal during a game but a chant has to raise our sides moral. Waterford supporters can chant 'WAT - ER - FORD' so there's no reason why Kilkenny supporters cant chant a 3 syllable chant or even 'CATS'.

Noise levels have been louder from Kilkenny supporters during final replays when there are more teenagers and younger kids in the stands due to lower ticket prices, they also get a chant going.

We had a teacher in the CBS during the 80s who wrote a few chants for the school team, one of them used the beat to an SS marching song, not the best choice in hindsight.

Even with the absence of a Kilkenny chant in Thurles, some of the players appreciated the supporters roars and support, they couldnt hear each other calling for the ball sometimes. I could feel the increased noise level sitting close to the pitch in Semple.

Sound from the stands doesnt seem to carry as far onto the pitch in Croke Park so maybe its time we started chanting like other supporters to rally our players.

Topcat32

Orizio wrote: »

What are you basing this on? One Minor/All-Ireland in the past five years - hardly suggestive that there is huge talent coming through for KK.

Well im not sure who you are replying too but I think its based on the minors of 2013, 2014 and 2015. In 2013 the team were leading a very good waterford team with about 10 minutes to go, in 2014 the minor team won the all ireland beating a highly rated Limerick team in the final and in 2015, Galway needed a replay to beat Kilkenny in the semi-final and then beat Tipp easily in the final. I think its a little foolish to think that if a minor team doesnt win the all ireland that it doesnt in many cases have the same amount of promosing players as the wining team

Also what indicates that we have good players coming through is the performance of the collages teams over those years, where Kierans Collage have dominated and CBS have been very strong

Topcat32

fyfe79 wrote: »

Darren Gleeson in goal is 36 so he'd bring up the average a bit, I'd think. He might not be a starter next year.

Id be suprised if he didnt start next year, his puckouts and distribution are excellent. He is looking his age a little bit but he is still a decent shotstopper. I think he would be a significant loss to Tipp when he goes.

Dyr

granturismo wrote: »

sides moral. Waterford supporters can chant 'WAT - ER - FORD' so there's no reason why Kilkenny supporters cant chant a 3 syllable chant or even 'CATS'.


.

You mean "WAH UR FURD" surely?

brookville

minty81 wrote: »

Two main thoughts on Sunday.

Our half back line were constantly dragged up field following their markers which left huge gaps behind. Most un-kilkenny like. And i can't fathom why? Why are we following Bonner Maher and Dan Mccormack up field when neither are going to score long range points?
This left huge gaps for tipp to hit deliveries into.

Secondly the intensity and workrate of our forwards and midfield was way off our usual standard. We never laid a finger on them. Did any Tipp player wake up sore on Monday morning? I doubt it
Its very rare a team beats kilkenny in the tackle count. We were obliterated 54-36.
Our tackle count in both waterford games was 51 and 54.
Again not to have any pressure on their half backs clearing ball was most un-kilkenny like.

The two issues together created the perfect storm for our full back line to be hung out to dry

Great post I couldn't believe we fell for this but we looked flat on sunday but we were blessed the first day against waterford so it was on the cards.I thought joyce was unlucky to be taken off he wasnt our worst defender.it'll be intresting to see who goes jackie obviously and maybe larkin and fenno.I've heard a few lads mention buckley should be tried full back.I'd expect a shake up on the panel anyway which mighnt be a bad thing we usually learn from our defeats and come back stronger

Justice for the individual

minty81 wrote: »

Two main thoughts on Sunday.

Our half back line were constantly dragged up field following their markers which left huge gaps behind. Most un-kilkenny like. And i can't fathom why? Why are we following Bonner Maher and Dan Mccormack up field when neither are going to score long range points?
This left huge gaps for tipp to hit deliveries into.

Secondly the intensity and workrate of our forwards and midfield was way off our usual standard. We never laid a finger on them. Did any Tipp player wake up sore on Monday morning? I doubt it
Its very rare a team beats kilkenny in the tackle count. We were obliterated 54-36.
Our tackle count in both waterford games was 51 and 54.
Again not to have any pressure on their half backs clearing ball was most un-kilkenny like.



The two issues together created the perfect storm for our full back line to be hung out to dry

Yes, I could not believe what I was seeing, the Kilkenny half-backs following the Tipperary half forwards out to then crowd their own half forwards, with the domino effect of no open space in front of the Kilkenny full forward line for them to exploit.

Throughout the game, the most dangerous line on the Tippearary team, their full forward line, had acres of space, with no attempt by the Kilkenny team or management to rectify what was happening. The Tipp full forward line ended up with a massive score overall. The Kilkenny captain was Shane Prendergast, and perhaps he would have some say on the field of play, and would be leading the call to get the Kilkenny half back line back into position, nearer the full backs to block the free ball into the Tipp full forward line.

But then again, Shane and his other full backs were swamped and changes needed to be made in that area to start with. To make matters worse, the Tipp backs were allowed to pick their spot and put the perfect diagonal ball into their full forwards.

It was amazing to compare the open space the Tipp full forward line had to the congested area the Kilkenny full forward line were restricted to.

Even we (the mere supporters) could see that, so what was going on with Brian and the team management - did they set up a plan A and stubbornly stuck with it, instead of having a plan B. We could not believe the inaction on the sideline.

Kilkenny may not have won regardless of what change in personel or tactics were made, but at least, for the sake of the team, something should have been done.

In any case, what worked for Kilkenny before, was not good enough for last Sunday, and Tipp, fair play to them, adopted much of the Kilkenny intensity and style of play, and upped the bar a bit more, which can only be good for the game.

Brian will learn from this, and we have no doubt whatsover, being the great motivator and strategist that he is, he will go back, rejig his team, and come back with a renwed vigour - managers and team management, like the team, get tired of constantly raising the bar, and nobody faults them.

Leaving my Kilkenny hat aside, hurling needed that game of last Sunday, and in the long run, the other teams can now harbour their own ambitions of making it on the big day, but as always, there will be a Kilkenny team waiting for them.

northern lad

Topcat32 wrote: »

Well im not sure who you are replying too but I think its based on the minors of 2013, 2014 and 2015. In 2013 the team were leading a very good waterford team with about 10 minutes to go, in 2014 the minor team won the all ireland beating a highly rated Limerick team in the final and in 2015, Galway needed a replay to beat Kilkenny in the semi-final and then beat Tipp easily in the final. I think its a little foolish to think that if a minor team doesnt win the all ireland that it doesnt in many cases have the same amount of promosing players as the wining team

Also what indicates that we have good players coming through is the performance of the collages teams over those years, where Kierans Collage have dominated and CBS have been very strong

Our 2013 minors lost 2016 U21 to Westmeath. I agree that team had some fine players but that loss is impossible to comprehend. There are some very good young players that Brian promised on Monday morning that we'll see quickly. That's great but they are very young and a 3-5 year fix will be required in my opinion and it will be interesting to watch it develop. Will all 4 of the management have the time/energy/enthusiasm to stay on for the longer haul than usual. 2017 is not going to be 2011. We must be realistic. In 2010 final defeat Brian brought on Lyng, Comerford, Rice, R. Hogan as subs. Think of bench last Sunday. A new era awaits, a real challenge. No better person than Brian to lead it.

Topcat32

northern lad wrote: »

Our 2013 minors lost 2016 U21 to Westmeath. I agree that team had some fine players but that loss is impossible to comprehend. There are some very good young players that Brian promised on Monday morning that we'll see quickly. That's great but they are very young and a 3-5 year fix will be required in my opinion and it will be interesting to watch it develop. Will all 4 of the management have the time/energy/enthusiasm to stay on for the longer haul than usual. 2017 is not going to be 2011. We must be realistic. In 2010 final defeat Brian brought on Lyng, Comerford, Rice, R. Hogan as subs. Think of bench last Sunday. A new era awaits, a real challenge. No better person than Brian to lead it.

It likely is a new era but with the talent in our team and Tipp likely to win Munster again next year, you would be dissapointed if Kilkenny don't reach the semi-final at least next year.

Cornerback1

Topcat32 wrote: »

fyfe79 wrote: »

Darren Gleeson in goal is 36 so he'd bring up the average a bit, I'd think. He might not be a starter next year.

Id be suprised if he didnt start next year, his puckouts and distribution are excellent. He is looking his age a little bit but he is still a decent shotstopper. I think he would be a significant loss to Tipp when he goes.

I thought his range of puck out were excellent - a great variation of long and short and he pinned them with great accuracy.

mickmackey1

Gleeson has already said he will be available next year.

Whiplash85

You cannot throw out the baby with the bath water when it comes to making changes in the team for next year. Holden has an all star at full back you have to remember. Murphy is one of the best corner backs in the country but was well beaten as well as was Prendergast. With Vast open swathes of space and quality ball raining in on you you dont have much hope. I would be looking at the differential in tackle count and why were Tipp players were able to pick out cross field balls with very little pressure exerted. Also I dont condone this type of play but sometimes you have to be cynical when a player gets inside you and gets a run on goal. I think if Noel Hickey was playing and he dropped his hurley like Paul Murphy did last sunday I dont think he would have tried to pick it up. I think he would have taken a yellow and pulled the jersey. That was a pivotal moment.

Also the physcology behind the Waterford semi final was huge. Kilkenny were buoyed by a stirring comeback win against Gawlay in Leinster Final. Waterford came into it with a huge point to prove after their annihilation v's Tipp. Kilkenny expended too much energy getting over Waterford in their semi final.

unrealtime

I think we are missing the important fact which is that Munster hurling is so poor and Tipp generally have a cakewalk there. Apart from Galway who did it last year we have knocked Tipp out of the championship every year since 2010.

We are far from finished and will be a force to be reckoned with next year - and we still remain a young team. I have no doubt but that we will be in the final again.

Whiplash85

unrealtime wrote: »

I think we are missing the important fact which is that Munster hurling is so poor and Tipp generally have a cakewalk there. Apart from Galway who did it last year we have knocked Tipp out of the championship every year since 2010.

We are far from finished and will be a force to be reckoned with next year - and we still remain a young team. I have no doubt but that we will be in the final again.

Agreed you would get a good game off Galway to be fair. Munster hurling is very weak at the minute. Even Wexford managed to beat Cork. Munster titles have lost their sheen. You dont even bother celebrating them anymore.