Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

brookville

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=275598

Loughnane not holding back anyway

MfMan

That's a good sign for KK so, considering that the 'amiable curate' guided Galway to victory this year.

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/ger-loughnane-mounts-savage-attack-on-galway-players-and-ridicules-their-fr-trendy-manager-338821

Hawkeye6

Good to finally see some proper debate regarding where Kilkenny are now and are going over the past few days thanks to the input of some fresh posters. With club matches this weekend, it will be interesting to see club “systems” and style of play as much as individual performances. Some players may look really good but they might be playing for or against a team that may allow them to do so, but the likelihood of the same freedom is sparse at inter county level. I think this is a factor a lot of people are forgetting in Kilkenny at the moment, with the rise popularity of “systems” at inter county level. Therefore a lot of the young players who are rightly rated very highly, disappoint on the inter county stage. They are not used to playing this type of game.

Watched a Waterford intermediate club playing recently and although their skill level was not wonderful, they were trying to play a similar “system” or style to the Waterford senior team. We want our players to adapt to inter county defensive systems, but I’m not sure if any clubs in Kilkenny are playing this way. Training sessions at county level, particularly at underage (given the scarcity of session together) is not a lot to allow players to practice and adapt.

The Camogie final, showed that possibly, the Camogie management teams are further ahead in this regard. Yes, Kilkenny lost, but it was a game that could have gone either way up to the last puck. Some might suggest to just go out and attack, but for a long number of years Kilkenny Camogie teams were doing that with little success, since last year and the introduction of a “system”, trophies are being won. (2 leagues, 1 Senior AI, 1 Intermediate AI and 1 senior Leinster)

Have we anything to be optimistic about. I did a short Analysis of where the 4 south east counties are after 2017. You can decide which county should be the most optimistic. Interestingly, Kilkenny are the only ones with a senior trophy. Waterford and Wexford have no trophy of any kind in 2017 hurling.

KILKENNY
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Winners -League QF - Leinster SF - AI Qualifier
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Champions - AI Champions
UNDER-21: Leinster Champions - AI Finalists
MINOR: Leinster Champions - AI Semi Finalist
UNDER-16: AI Champions
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

TIPPERARY
SENIOR: Did not enter Munster League - League Finalists - Munster QF - AI SF
INTERMEDIATE: Did not enter
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: AI Finalists
UNDER 14: AI Champions

WATERFORD
SENIOR: 4th of 5 teams - League QF -Munster SF - AI Finalists
INTERMEDIATE: Munster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

WEXFORD
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Semi Finalists - League SF - Leinster Finalists -AI QF
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Leinster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Leinster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

So maybe the above contradicts the use of “systems”. Oh and Kilkenny are the only ones with a football trophy too (British Junior). Look forward to more improved discussion over the coming weeks and not just player name dropping.

Village87

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Good to finally see some proper debate regarding where Kilkenny are now and are going over the past few days thanks to the input of some fresh posters. With club matches this weekend, it will be interesting to see club “systems” and style of play as much as individual performances. Some players may look really good but they might be playing for or against a team that may allow them to do so, but the likelihood of the same freedom is sparse at inter county level. I think this is a factor a lot of people are forgetting in Kilkenny at the moment, with the rise popularity of “systems” at inter county level. Therefore a lot of the young players who are rightly rated very highly, disappoint on the inter county stage. They are not used to playing this type of game.

Watched a Waterford intermediate club playing recently and although their skill level was not wonderful, they were trying to play a similar “system” or style to the Waterford senior team. We want our players to adapt to inter county defensive systems, but I’m not sure if any clubs in Kilkenny are playing this way. Training sessions at county level, particularly at underage (given the scarcity of session together) is not a lot to allow players to practice and adapt.

The Camogie final, showed that possibly, the Camogie management teams are further ahead in this regard. Yes, Kilkenny lost, but it was a game that could have gone either way up to the last puck. Some might suggest to just go out and attack, but for a long number of years Kilkenny Camogie teams were doing that with little success, since last year and the introduction of a “system”, trophies are being won. (2 leagues, 1 Senior AI, 1 Intermediate AI and 1 senior Leinster)

Have we anything to be optimistic about. I did a short Analysis of where the 4 south east counties are after 2017. You can decide which county should be the most optimistic. Interestingly, Kilkenny are the only ones with a senior trophy. Waterford and Wexford have no trophy of any kind in 2017 hurling.

KILKENNY
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Winners -League QF - Leinster SF - AI Qualifier
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Champions - AI Champions
UNDER-21: Leinster Champions - AI Finalists
MINOR: Leinster Champions - AI Semi Finalist
UNDER-16: AI Champions
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

TIPPERARY
SENIOR: Did not enter Munster League - League Finalists - Munster QF - AI SF
INTERMEDIATE: Did not enter
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: AI Finalists
UNDER 14: AI Champions

WATERFORD
SENIOR: 4th of 5 teams - League QF -Munster SF - AI Finalists
INTERMEDIATE: Munster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Munster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Munster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

WEXFORD
SENIOR: Walsh Cup Semi Finalists - League SF - Leinster Finalists -AI QF
INTERMEDIATE: Leinster Finalists
UNDER-21: Failed to come out of Leinster
MINOR: Failed to come out of Leinster
UNDER-16: Failed to come out of group
UNDER 14: Failed to come out of group

So maybe the above contradicts the use of “systems”. Oh and Kilkenny are the only ones with a football trophy too (British Junior). Look forward to more improved discussion over the coming weeks and not just player name dropping.

If a player is good enough he sticks out a mile, potential, work rate, skill will always overcome a system.

dubcat51

Village87 wrote: »

If a player is good enough he sticks out a mile, potential, work rate, skill will always overcome a system.

Forget systems they dont win the big one.just pick our best players in their best positions and let them.hurl.

minty81

Cody staying on. No changes to the backroom.

brookville

minty81 wrote: »

Cody staying on. No changes to the backroom.

Heard this myself although I would of liked fresh voices

minty81

brookville wrote: »

minty81 wrote: »

Cody staying on. No changes to the backroom.

Heard this myself although I would of liked fresh voices

Yea really surprised and disappointed no new coach in the backroom

dobbs2210

minty81 wrote: »

Yea really surprised and disappointed no new coach in the backroom

Under Brian Cody...a new forward thinking hands on coach who will develop a clear system and plan of hurling on field will not and never be allowed under his reign.

The driving balls into sky with the mantra of 'win your own ball' will continue at pace.

sasta le

You have to admire his hunger have a sneaky feeling KK could still give it a go

Village87

Brian "Arsene Wenger" Cody.. Expecting the same results as this year.
Cody had the greatest team of all time with little or competition the odd burst from Cork or Tipp, gauranteed all Ireland semi final every year.

Now the competition is after catching up, im looking forward to seeing how Brian Cody can manage a team where he has to maximise all his resources.

Last year Wexford beat them in Nowlan Park and we all expected a plan for the game in Wexford Park but we were shown to be naive on the sideline. Big year for the management

dastardly00

Village87 wrote: »

Brian "Arsene Wenger" Cody.. Expecting the same results as this year.
Cody had the greatest team of all time with little or competition the odd burst from Cork or Tipp, gauranteed all Ireland semi final every year.

Now the competition is after catching up, im looking forward to seeing how Brian Cody can manage a team where he has to maximise all his resources.

Last year Wexford beat them in Nowlan Park and we all expected a plan for the game in Wexford Park but we were shown to be naive on the sideline. Big year for the management

It's hard to disagree with the above.

BUT I do still have faith in Cody

Hawkeye6

The initial responses to my post on “systems” and stats was pretty much as expected. People in Kilkenny don’t want to know about “systems” or don’t believe in them. The responses are typical of most Kilkenny coaches at the moment. It’s players not systems. And to be honest I agree… to a certain extent. Bear with me and see what you think. Again I’m just trying to create discussion. I have no doubt many will disagree.

A few years ago, there was a hugely talented, skillful player playing with a junior club in Kilkenny. We all know him. From under-12 up he was the go to player. He usually played in any of the diamond positions, centre back/forward or midfield. He tried to cover every blade of grass on the pitch. He was playing with players who were ok, average or just poor, but there was no doubting his talent. He worked very hard for his own individual scores, some of exceptional quality. If he had an off day, his team had an off day. His obvious ability earned him a call up to the Kilkenny panel. At inter county level he was now playing with players who were more than ok, in fact some exceptional players. Unfortunately, our super talented player found it difficult to fit into the team, a Kilkenny team that played a like a typical conventional and traditional Kilkenny team. He was constantly in the wrong position to receive the ball from a team mate. He was constantly over playing the ball. He was consistently not taking the right option and finding a team mate in a better position. The opposition were of a better standard also and the time he had on the ball was a lot less. After a number of underwhelming performances sprinkled with the odd flash of brilliant skill, he was released from the Kilkenny setup having failed to fit into the Kilkenny team setup.

Read the above paragraph and now use the word System instead of Team. That Kilkenny team was a conventional 6 backs, 2 midfielders and 6 forwards with the backs and forwards listed as right, centre, left, half and full. Here was the player who did stick out a mile but did not fit into the team or the modern word “system”.

Fast forward to now. Any of you who were at the Camogie final on Sunday (shame on those of you who weren’t, want to be a very good reason) would have noticed when the ball was thrown in, there was no traditional lineup of backs and forwards in the positions of right, centre, left, half and full. Something that is prevalent in Gaelic Football with a good while. It was still two teams, but both operating differently to the traditional setup or “system”. The positioning and movement of players from both teams was far from traditional throughout. Forget about the entertainment value. Elite sport is about results and getting an edge over the opposition in games where the margins are very small. The reality now is that at the top level there is no such thing as the positions of right, centre, left, half and full for forwards and backs. Soon, the teamsheet will be just numbers with the only guaranteed constant being number 1. Everyone has to play everywhere. Some of the Kilkenny Camogie forwards were back in their own corner back position clearing the ball on Sunday. And this has been the case for a while with the senior hurlers setup though not as pronounced as other counties. (Recall Eoin Larkin/Colin Fennelly defensive efforts). The fitness of players has changed with a top class player being able to run the length of a pitch twice as fast as his equivalent of30 years ago. The team (or system) setup has changed at inter county level. As I pointed out in my previous post, Waterford Intermediate clubs are trying to adapt, but how many Kilkenny clubs are trying to adapt, because obviously like our junior player, no matter how skillful you are, if you cannot fit into the team (or system) setup, contrary to thought, you are no addition to the county setup. The more exposure our club players get to the modern game (leave whether you like it or not for another day), the easier they will find to adapt when brought into an inter county team (or system).

So basically, I would suggest don’t get hung up too much on the term “system” , its still a team of 15 players, its just that the pieces do not function in the same sequence at inter county level any more. Therefore the players who stand out in upcoming club games , should be the ones which play in the games where positions are more fluid than traditionally understood.

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

Brian "Arsene Wenger" Cody.. Expecting the same results as this year.
Cody had the greatest team of all time with little or competition the odd burst from Cork or Tipp, gauranteed all Ireland semi final every year.

Now the competition is after catching up, im looking forward to seeing how Brian Cody can manage a team where he has to maximise all his resources.

Last year Wexford beat them in Nowlan Park and we all expected a plan for the game in Wexford Park but we were shown to be naive on the sideline. Big year for the management

I agree its a huge year for the seniors we can't have the same craic as last year chopping and changing lads.we know areas we're weak in and we have to iron out some positions and I feel we need padraig on the wing I'd hope delaney gets league time at 3 to see how he goes evan cody also hurling well for the boro.
We'll probably have a few retirements,joyce,pender,fennelly and john joe might go
Hopefully lads like hogan,walter,alyward can rediscover form next season
Maybe the club matches can earth a few players.
I still think cody is the right man to bring us foward because I think he got it wrong with his team selections in his 2 defeats
Hopefully the young lads we expect to see next year are put on programmes to try and physically get them ready

greenspurs

Hopefully the Management will use the League as a place to try out new players, and as a last chance saloon for lads that are in the Senior squad but not 'doing the biz' ......

northern lad

When will U 21 and minor be ratified ?

brookville

northern lad wrote: »

When will U 21 and minor be ratified ?

The minor and u21 will probably be announced around November.it's usually the same with the senior but i don't think cody was ever going to do a runner when we're down
Despite what people think I'd prefer to have him driving the bus than a fresh face although I would of liked new selectors,a modern coach especially I would of liked dj added but maybe he can be brought into the minors or 21s
I know people want more lads bloodied next spring but I didn't work this year so we have to get the balance right.
I know lads can't be judged on one game but billy ryan,Jason cleere,Sean morrissey,John walsh look a long way off senior
What hurlers are in the county who aren't on the panel?
I'd like to see John power back next season he has the experience and the ability hopefully the year out will help

dastardly00

greenspurs wrote: »

Hopefully the Management will use the League as a place to try out new players, and as a last chance saloon for lads that are in the Senior squad but not 'doing the biz' ......

But is that not what they did in the League this year?

There was a core group of players who played the majority of games (Eoin Murph, Paul Murph, TJ, Buckley, Padraig Walsh, Richie, Fogarty and Wally) and then there was a host of other players who rotated between playing 2-5 games.

dubcat51

Play our best players in their best positions and then look to fill in where were short.stop playing the lukes of padraig at full back.we over reacted to 16 v tipp

soft free

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

The initial responses to my post on “systems” and stats was pretty much as expected. People in Kilkenny don’t want to know about “systems” or don’t believe in them. The responses are typical of most Kilkenny coaches at the moment. It’s players not systems. And to be honest I agree… to a certain extent. Bear with me and see what you think. Again I’m just trying to create discussion. I have no doubt many will disagree.

A few years ago, there was a hugely talented, skillful player playing with a junior club in Kilkenny. We all know him. From under-12 up he was the go to player. He usually played in any of the diamond positions, centre back/forward or midfield. He tried to cover every blade of grass on the pitch. He was playing with players who were ok, average or just poor, but there was no doubting his talent. He worked very hard for his own individual scores, some of exceptional quality. If he had an off day, his team had an off day. His obvious ability earned him a call up to the Kilkenny panel. At inter county level he was now playing with players who were more than ok, in fact some exceptional players. Unfortunately, our super talented player found it difficult to fit into the team, a Kilkenny team that played a like a typical conventional and traditional Kilkenny team. He was constantly in the wrong position to receive the ball from a team mate. He was constantly over playing the ball. He was consistently not taking the right option and finding a team mate in a better position. The opposition were of a better standard also and the time he had on the ball was a lot less. After a number of underwhelming performances sprinkled with the odd flash of brilliant skill, he was released from the Kilkenny setup having failed to fit into the Kilkenny team setup.

Read the above paragraph and now use the word System instead of Team. That Kilkenny team was a conventional 6 backs, 2 midfielders and 6 forwards with the backs and forwards listed as right, centre, left, half and full. Here was the player who did stick out a mile but did not fit into the team or the modern word “system”.

Fast forward to now. Any of you who were at the Camogie final on Sunday (shame on those of you who weren’t, want to be a very good reason) would have noticed when the ball was thrown in, there was no traditional lineup of backs and forwards in the positions of right, centre, left, half and full. Something that is prevalent in Gaelic Football with a good while. It was still two teams, but both operating differently to the traditional setup or “system”. The positioning and movement of players from both teams was far from traditional throughout. Forget about the entertainment value. Elite sport is about results and getting an edge over the opposition in games where the margins are very small. The reality now is that at the top level there is no such thing as the positions of right, centre, left, half and full for forwards and backs. Soon, the teamsheet will be just numbers with the only guaranteed constant being number 1. Everyone has to play everywhere. Some of the Kilkenny Camogie forwards were back in their own corner back position clearing the ball on Sunday. And this has been the case for a while with the senior hurlers setup though not as pronounced as other counties. (Recall Eoin Larkin/Colin Fennelly defensive efforts). The fitness of players has changed with a top class player being able to run the length of a pitch twice as fast as his equivalent of30 years ago. The team (or system) setup has changed at inter county level. As I pointed out in my previous post, Waterford Intermediate clubs are trying to adapt, but how many Kilkenny clubs are trying to adapt, because obviously like our junior player, no matter how skillful you are, if you cannot fit into the team (or system) setup, contrary to thought, you are no addition to the county setup. The more exposure our club players get to the modern game (leave whether you like it or not for another day), the easier they will find to adapt when brought into an inter county team (or system).

So basically, I would suggest don’t get hung up too much on the term “system” , its still a team of 15 players, its just that the pieces do not function in the same sequence at inter county level any more. Therefore the players who stand out in upcoming club games , should be the ones which play in the games where positions are more fluid than traditionally understood.

On Kilkenny specifically, we had the type of player who had the confidence and skills to go where they were needed. These past two years that has not been an option given that while honest and hard working, their ability to go where they were needed didn't necessarily bring any bounce from it.

The systems that people think of are those associated with Davy and Derek. What we require now are players with confidence, fitness, flexibility and skill to play in a structure that has the confidence and in field leadership and off pitch support to read the game. And while that can be sharpened at inter county panel level, clubs are where players learn that. Therefore coaches need to have that confidence to focus on skills and beleif to respond to situations when required to do so. Hurling is instinctive and demands players to react and to have the confidence to do so and if that means ending up in the other end of the pitch then others players have to react accordingly.

Richie Hogan's goal v Tipp in 2011 still, for me, captured some of all that's great about Kilkenny hurling. It involved a defender, a midfielder, a half forward coming out to midfield by the sideline, a smart handpass to Eddie Brennan, Shefflin taking Paudi Maher for a detour over to the Hogan Stand while Eddie heads towards goal. Hogan, instinctively knows to go where he is needed and with skill buries the ball. That verve has been missing. 4 players form that move are retired. But the move required confidence, skill and movement and verve. Can we coach that in clubs? Can we focus on developing players who are fit and strong and who don't have to be man mountains and who are encouraged to go where they are needed. Who can hurl the game as it unfolds?

brookville

dubcat51 wrote: »

Play our best players in their best positions and then look to fill in where were short.stop playing the lukes of padraig at full back.we over reacted to 16 v tipp

I agree and wondered why he didn't leave joyce at 3 because he wasn't our worst performer against wexford.
The stats prove that our fowards with the exception of tj weren't scoring enough to win matches this will have to be addressed with the positioning of the right
There's more problems than padraig at 3,too much uncertainty around lads like lennon,joey,lyng and paul murphy apart from the limerick match couldn't reach his usual heights.
Cody has a job to find all these new defenders apart from lawlor and delaney last saturday the other 4 look a long way off

JJs Left Hand

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Fast forward to now. Any of you who were at the Camogie final on Sunday (shame on those of you who weren’t, want to be a very good reason).

If they stopped letting them throw away the hurl every 5 seconds it might make it bearable but as long as they continue that I'm not going. I wouldn't mind only they're good enough to not do it but they still do and most of the time it doesn't even make sense. Its infuriating. That and the constant squealing. Dear God the squealing.

greenspurs

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

If they stopped letting them throw away the hurl every 5 seconds it might make it bearable but as long as they continue that I'm not going. I wouldn't mind only they're good enough to not do it but they still do and most of the time it doesn't even make sense. Its infuriating. That and the constant squealing. Dear God the squealing.

Ooh the Squealing was unbelievable, but hey, that was the sound of about 15,000 girls under the age of 16 enjoying the All Ireland ! It was great to be up there and to see all those kids at the game and for them to see the top camogie players in the country , and hopefully this will inspire them to keep playing the game and represent their county !!!
#SupportHerSport

Hawkeye6

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

If they stopped letting them throw away the hurl every 5 seconds it might make it bearable but as long as they continue that I'm not going. I wouldn't mind only they're good enough to not do it but they still do and most of the time it doesn't even make sense. Its infuriating. That and the constant squealing. Dear God the squealing.

Dinosaur!
Those girls are Kilkenny girls, elite Kilkenny GAA athletes and this is a KILKENNY GAA thread. They are someone's daughter, sister, granddaughter from Kilkenny.They put as much time into their sport as the men.

If Kilkenny hurling legends like Brian Cody and Tommy Walsh could support them, not just in the final by the way, you could make an effort if you are a Kilkenny GAA fan. I'm sure your mother is proud of your attitude towards girls sports.

As the previous poster said that "squealing" as you called it, is thousands of kids who can get into a senior final in Croke Park and have a wonderful day out. The future of the GAA! I think it's absolutely magnificent that they are there. They are there with their flags and banners, cheering and excited, not sitting in a premium box with a suit and a prawn sandwich. And those kids could tell you who is playing.

As for dropping the hurley, many lads from your era such as Pat Delaney, Kieran Purcell, Eddie Keher, Cloney Brennan etc. were thankful to be able to drop the hurley. You obviously didn't think much of them either. And thinking outside the box, there is a case for again allowing the dropping of the hurley in open play. It would help alleviate the development of some of the rucks, as players can use their dominant hand to release the ball quicker and more accurate.

Motivator

I can't believe Kilkenny are persisting with Cody. Obviously the county board haven't the balls to get rid of him and are waiting for him to walk. As an outsider, I'm delighted he's back for another year! It'll be another year where Kilkenny will win nothing.

Cody is finished and the writing has been on the wall for the last couple of years. I wonder will he be sacked if yee scrape through a qualifier and get humiliated by Waterford again?

djPSB

Any thoughts on this weekend's club games?

JJs Left Hand

I'm 31. Noone has ever dropped their hurl in my "era". And my mother couldn't give a **** about sport so I doubt she'll be overly judgemental on my no show at the camogie All Ireland.

The idea that you're a better KILKENNY GAA fan because you went to a camogie game is laughable. I was at an U14 game on Monday evening - there was a full round of games on. Were you there? Eh? Eh? These are the FUTURE! Because a true KILKENNY GAA man would have been there. And if you were there watching then why are you only watching and not coaching these kids? Because a true KILKENNY GAA man would be coaching.

Etc etc etc

Interesting to see if anyone reacts to Motivator. Went in both barrels there maybe lacking a bit of subtlety...

As for the club games St Martins will beat The Village......

brookville

Motivator wrote: »

I can't believe Kilkenny are persisting with Cody. Obviously the county board haven't the balls to get rid of him and are waiting for him to walk. As an outsider, I'm delighted he's back for another year! It'll be another year where Kilkenny will win nothing.

Cody is finished and the writing has been on the wall for the last couple of years. I wonder will he be sacked if yee scrape through a qualifier and get humiliated by Waterford again?

Writing on the wall the last few years?did kilkenny not win 2 years ago?beaten in an all Ireland the year after and lose in extra time to the finalist this year?too say cody is finished is a bit premature but 2017 is a huge year no doubt

BoroMan32

djPSB wrote: »

Any thoughts on this weekend's club games?

Senior:

First RD:

Shamrocks v Inistioge - Ballyhale have put in some indifferent displays during the league campaign and it wouldn't surprise me if Inistioge gave it a good go against them. It's one thing thinking there's a different gear there, but another thing actually finding it. Shamrocks by 2.

Danesfort v Comer - A free shot of sorts for Danesfort who'll probably be happy enough to have avoided the relegation scenario. They were decent against the Village but got goals at the right time and they'll have it tougher against a Comer side who are dogged and determined as ever. Comer by 2.

First RD Relegation:

Bridge v Mullinavat - Mullinavat can count themselves as very unlucky to have landed in a relegation semi. The Bridge started the campaign slowly but got better as things went on. These two served up a high scoring draw in the first round last year and you couldn't see there being much between them again. Vat by 1.

Village v Martins - Don't think this is a formality for the city side at all. Muckalee like nothing better then a cause, and they tend to put in 1 or 2 big efforts every year. We haven't seen it so far this year so it could come on Sunday. Saw the Village v Danesfort and it has to be said they were bloody atrocious, Jackie Tyrell and Eoin Larkin's powers are seriously on the wane and the supporting cast aren't up to much. Muckalee by 4.

dastardly00

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Interesting to see if anyone reacts to Motivator. Went in both barrels there maybe lacking a bit of subtlety...

I actually feel sorry for the chap at this stage... he clearly seems to have some issues...