Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Cornerback1

blackcard wrote: »

If we win at senior on Saturday, we are playing the following week. If we win that, we are in a quarter final

One step at a time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

brookville

Agreed,1 step at the time it's a big week for our hurlers hopefully the seniors get the ball rolling saturday.I read somewhere the intermediates were playing Galway tomorrow but that must be a mistake because it would of being advertised locally.Best of luck to the seniors,minors and u21s and let's not forget our footballers who had a great win last wknd and are playing their final saturday afternoon

Brian017

brookville wrote: »

Agreed,1 step at the time it's a big week for our hurlers hopefully the seniors get the ball rolling saturday.I read somewhere the intermediates were playing Galway tomorrow but that must be a mistake because it would of being advertised locally.Best of luck to the seniors,minors and u21s and let's not forget our footballers who had a great win last wknd and are playing their final saturday afternoon

Don't forget about the girls who play their 2nd game of the championship on Saturday as a curtain raiser to the senior game!

washman3

oconnol1 wrote: »

Brian Gavin Ref on Saturday.

Game,set and match to Kilkenny so.
If there was ever a glimmer of hope that Limerick may cause a huge shock, this is the final nail in the coffin now. Well documented that he hates Limerick with a passion, and for no apparent reason.

Powerhouse

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Jonjo wouldn't surprise me as he was snubbed badly with the substitution the last day and during the league this year. I talked to him last year and he seemed to have a pretty hectic schedule with his life at that time between teaching, helping on the farm at home, a new baby and hurling constantly. I can see how the last day may have been the straw that broke the camels back but I'd be surprised too as he seemed very driven and dedicated.

So you're keeping an open mind on it?

babyjesus14

washman3 wrote: »

Game,set and match to Kilkenny so.
If there was ever a glimmer of hope that Limerick may cause a huge shock, this is the final nail in the coffin now. Well documented that he hates Limerick with a passion, and for no apparent reason.

Where are these documents?

Village87

Any idea of the team, surely a few lads in line to be replaced, Conor O'Shea,Paul Murphy, Rob Lennon will be doing well to hold there places. Hope to see Richie Leahy, Billy Ryan & maybe John Donnelly start.

bruschi

I always find it odd the level of discussion and rumour about lads on or off the panel on the Kilkenny squad. The whole Ger Aylward thing at the start of the year was really surprising to me, how something so small as an injured player can get turned into being thrown off the panel for disciplinary reasons being banded about and no consequences of the rumours. You'd think for a county as small as Kilkenny that these types of rumours wouldnt get out and would be easily enough clarified by clubmates or people who are properly in the know.

Ceist_Beag

Agreed bruschi, the amount of unsubstantiated rumours on here is quite surprising and I fail to see why posters are so eager to put them out, seemingly without any good evidence in many cases.

greenspurs

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Agreed bruschi, the amount of unsubstantiated rumours on here is quite surprising and I fail to see why posters are so eager to put them out, seemingly without any good evidence in many cases.

People love to be the one with the scoop/news ... Understandable i suppose, but not worth writing when its not true !!

greenspurs

And meanwhile on the Waterford Gaa thread -
They continue to predict "borefest against offaly" ... "no offence to offaly but we should hammer them" ..... Mcgrath out ... DeLaSalle Vs Mt Sion .... Mcgrath is killing the young lads ..... hes ruining hurling ..... This could be our year ... Kilkenny and Tipp arent any good..... Ossie at centre back.... ossie at centre forward .....

And we think we are in a bad place !

dastardly00

dastardly00 wrote: »

Does anybody know:
Has Mark Bergin played much this year (for OLG)?
Has he been injured?

jeff bingham wrote: »

He played in the last round of club games and was anonymous. He may have been coming back from the injury he had at start of year tbf

Noddy33 wrote: »

Mark Bergin trained with the panel on Saturday so would be very surprised if he all of a sudden made a call like that on the week of what potentially could be the last game of the season.

PaulKK wrote: »

Injured most of the league, had an operation on his foot.

Thanks to those who replied to my query about Mark Bergin.

So...
- He was injured/recovering from an operation during the first quarter of the year
- He was on the match day squad for the last two league games against Dublin and Wexford
- He played in the last round of club games
- He wasn't on the match day squad for the Leinster semi-final against Wexford
- He trained with the panel last week

Was he injured/unfit or what for the Wexford championship match?

tbiggertycome

Powerhouse wrote: »

So you're keeping an open mind on it?

An ould rambling post and I'm continually surprised
I don't get out much, everything is new and supr.... :rolleyes:

tbiggertycome

dastardly00 wrote: »

Thanks to those who replied to my query about Mark Bergin.

So...
- He was injured/recovering from an operation during the first quarter of the year
- He was on the match day squad for the last two league games against Dublin and Wexford
- He played in the last round of club games
- He wasn't on the match day squad for the Leinster semi-final against Wexford
- He trained with the panel last week

Was he injured/unfit or what for the Wexford championship match?

The pattern would suggest he is being afflicted with little niggly injuries after his substantive lay off at the start of the year. This is usual enough for lads coming back from injury, they've modified how they move as a result of the injury and when they go back to normal and they push hard, they can cause other little strains and tears. The fact he didn't make the panel the last day would probably be down to the little time he's had to show how he's going as a result of the injuries or he's injured again! I honestly don't know but thats my best guess.

Comerman

Brian017 wrote:

Don't forget about the girls who play their 2nd game of the championship on Saturday as a curtain raiser to the senior game!

What time is that game starting.

Village87

brookville wrote: »

Agreed,1 step at the time it's a big week for our hurlers hopefully the seniors get the ball rolling saturday.I read somewhere the intermediates were playing Galway tomorrow but that must be a mistake because it would of being advertised locally.Best of luck to the seniors,minors and u21s and let's not forget our footballers who had a great win last wknd and are playing their final saturday afternoon[/

Are the footballers playing before hand too ?

Brian017

Comerman wrote: »

What time is that game starting.

5pm

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

Any idea of the team, surely a few lads in line to be replaced, Conor O'Shea,Paul Murphy, Rob Lennon will be doing well to hold there places. Hope to see Richie Leahy, Billy Ryan & maybe John Donnelly start.
Very little talk of the team but it will be very interesting to see what changes he makes.I heard walsh could be back at 3 so hopefully the few weeks training have brought him on,maybe joyce could be at 4 or 5 or maybe joey will be brought back in.
Whatever happens I think we need a few players to add a bit of freshness to the setup that's why I'd like to see leahy start at mf or hf.
I don't think we can afford to drop lads like murphy,wally or fogarty because we haven't enough strength in depth bit we do need huge performances from them

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

brookville wrote: »

Agreed,1 step at the time it's a big week for our hurlers hopefully the seniors get the ball rolling saturday.I read somewhere the intermediates were playing Galway tomorrow but that must be a mistake because it would of being advertised locally.Best of luck to the seniors,minors and u21s and let's not forget our footballers who had a great win last wknd and are playing their final saturday afternoon[/

Are the footballers playing before hand too ?

No thats away at 4 I think

Hawkeye6

Some amazing posts here over the past few weeks. Some good, some awful and some hilarious. The good, the bad and the ugly. This post could fall into all of those categories. Really interesting discussion for a while on underage hurling which I will return to in the future. The thing that strikes me is there are so many ill informed people posting. If they are Kilkenny GAA fans surely they regularly look at the official Kilkenny GAA website for information and still they ask questions like when is the British Junior Football final between Kilkenny and Warwickshire on. Come on, people must know how to surf and gather official information if they are on here. I would have thought.

Anyway, that is not the point of this post. I wanted to return to my post in the immediate aftermath of the Wexford game where I suggested, in my opinion, the root problem in the 2016 AI final was not in the backs and has not been since. In my opinion, the problem has been in midfield. Hence the loss of Michael Fennelly is really being felt and Michael Rice, Derek Lyng and Cha Fitz before that. I challenge anyone to identify what is the function and requirement of the current Kilkenny midfield setup. Are they attackers, are they defenders, are they both, are thy one of each and what should they be? Most other counties are now using their midfielders like rugby a scrum half and out half, winning breaking ball from the half lines and redistributing it productively. Half lines are no longer trying to catch balls. You will notice that they are spoiling and breaking. Galway and Cork used the tactic to great effect against the Tipperary half back line with Canning and the midfielders mopping up broken possession to feed mobile forwards. Lee Chin is doing something similar for Wexford as is Conor Lehane for Cork. I don’t recall a huge amount of scrimmaging these guys did either, but they certainly got lots of possession.

Do we in Kilkenny have midfielders capable of this role which knits your defensive and attacking units together? Do we have midfielders capable of an alternative game plan which will outwit the current opposition game plan. Over the last number of years, who have been the standout midfielders at club matches? They haven’t really been any. There have been good backs, good forwards and good goalkeepers but midfielders? Clubs have stopped developing midfielders because for a while they became almost redundant blending as a back or a forward. Half forwards were targeted and were winning clean possession. Kilkenny were very good at it. Now the spoiling tactics have stopped the success of that approach. I have watched so many matches lately where one midfielder is at one sideline and the other is at the opposite, with no hope of supporting each other in time and leaving a complete hole down the centre for a defence to be drawn apart and exploited. People are only noticing the last bit, it seems, the full back line. In my day midfielders were the winners of the puckout. That day is long gone, but they still exist on the field and their role needs to be defined. They have to have a purpose, don’t they? A young lad nowadays is either a back or a forward or maybe the odd goalkeeper. Very few lads are being defined as a midfielder in Kilkenny. Yes lads are put there because its tradition, but why???

Even in the U21 match last week how many times were the midfielders seen operating together as a tag team? Many counties have had great individuals, Kilkenny’s success was built on the whole team ethic. In the aftermath of the 2016 AI final, public opinion sent the Kilkenny backs to the slaughter. They wanted the forwards rearranged as well . Read all the posts, put this lad in the forwards, put that lad in the backs. Yet very few have looked at the midfield pairing or how that midfield pairing should work. This is the department that knits it all together.

Have a look at your own club and study the midfielders and the role they are playing and their own interaction. Is it productive or effective? Ask the club mentors who are the standout midfielders in the club, even at underage.

dastardly00

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

If they are Kilkenny GAA fans surely they regularly look at the official Kilkenny GAA website for information and still they ask questions like when is the British Junior Football final between Kilkenny and Warwickshire on. Come on, people must know how to surf and gather official information if they are on here. I would have thought.

I've searched http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/ and it does not have any info on the British Junior Football final. Or else I must be blind then

There is also no info about the camogie match on http://www.kilkennygaa.ie/ or no time/venue info on http://www.kilkennycamogie.com/. Or else I must be blind then

Village87

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Some amazing posts here over the past few weeks. Some good, some awful and some hilarious. The good, the bad and the ugly. This post could fall into all of those categories. Really interesting discussion for a while on underage hurling which I will return to in the future. The thing that strikes me is there are so many ill informed people posting. If they are Kilkenny GAA fans surely they regularly look at the official Kilkenny GAA website for information and still they ask questions like when is the British Junior Football final between Kilkenny and Warwickshire on. Come on, people must know how to surf and gather official information if they are on here. I would have thought.

Anyway, that is not the point of this post. I wanted to return to my post in the immediate aftermath of the Wexford game where I suggested, in my opinion, the root problem in the 2016 AI final was not in the backs and has not been since. In my opinion, the problem has been in midfield. Hence the loss of Michael Fennelly is really being felt and Michael Rice, Derek Lyng and Cha Fitz before that. I challenge anyone to identify what is the function and requirement of the current Kilkenny midfield setup. Are they attackers, are they defenders, are they both, are thy one of each and what should they be? Most other counties are now using their midfielders like rugby a scrum half and out half, winning breaking ball from the half lines and redistributing it productively. Half lines are no longer trying to catch balls. You will notice that they are spoiling and breaking. Galway and Cork used the tactic to great effect against the Tipperary half back line with Canning and the midfielders mopping up broken possession to feed mobile forwards. Lee Chin is doing something similar for Wexford as is Conor Lehane for Cork. I don’t recall a huge amount of scrimmaging these guys did either, but they certainly got lots of possession.

Do we in Kilkenny have midfielders capable of this role which knits your defensive and attacking units together? Do we have midfielders capable of an alternative game plan which will outwit the current opposition game plan. Over the last number of years, who have been the standout midfielders at club matches? They haven’t really been any. There have been good backs, good forwards and good goalkeepers but midfielders? Clubs have stopped developing midfielders because for a while they became almost redundant blending as a back or a forward. Half forwards were targeted and were winning clean possession. Kilkenny were very good at it. Now the spoiling tactics have stopped the success of that approach. I have watched so many matches lately where one midfielder is at one sideline and the other is at the opposite, with no hope of supporting each other in time and leaving a complete hole down the centre for a defence to be drawn apart and exploited. People are only noticing the last bit, it seems, the full back line. In my day midfielders were the winners of the puckout. That day is long gone, but they still exist on the field and their role needs to be defined. They have to have a purpose, don’t they? A young lad nowadays is either a back or a forward or maybe the odd goalkeeper. Very few lads are being defined as a midfielder in Kilkenny. Yes lads are put there because its tradition, but why???

Even in the U21 match last week how many times were the midfielders seen operating together as a tag team? Many counties have had great individuals, Kilkenny’s success was built on the whole team ethic. In the aftermath of the 2016 AI final, public opinion sent the Kilkenny backs to the slaughter. They wanted the forwards rearranged as well . Read all the posts, put this lad in the forwards, put that lad in the backs. Yet very few have looked at the midfield pairing or how that midfield pairing should work. This is the department that knits it all together.

Have a look at your own club and study the midfielders and the role they are playing and their own interaction. Is it productive or effective? Ask the club mentors who are the standout midfielders in the club, even at underage.

Very good point regarding midfielders, i highlighted the lack of performance from Conor Fogarty over the past year, neither skillful or mobile enough out there, when Mick Fennelly went we were cleaned out in midfield in the All Ireland final, I would love to see Cillian Buckley out there full time, speed and athleticism to burn, but we also need him in the backline. Mick Fennelly was powerhorse there. Not so sure on Paddy Deegan yet, good workrate but link up play and skill level of Brendan Maher, David Burke , Jamie Barron not there yet. Richie Leahy is a real option there

Realt Dearg Sec

Good post as always Hawkeye except the thing about Kilkennygaa.ie, it's a desperate website in every way, I avoid it like the plague.

tbiggertycome

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

In my opinion, the problem has been in midfield. Hence the loss of Michael Fennelly is really being felt and Michael Rice, Derek Lyng and Cha Fitz before that. I challenge anyone to identify what is the function and requirement of the current Kilkenny midfield setup. Are they attackers, are they defenders, are they both, are thy one of each and what should they be? Most other counties are now using their midfielders like rugby a scrum half and out half, winning breaking ball from the half lines and redistributing it productively. Half lines are no longer trying to catch balls. You will notice that they are spoiling and breaking. Galway and Cork used the tactic to great effect against the Tipperary half back line with Canning and the midfielders mopping up broken possession to feed mobile forwards. Lee Chin is doing something similar for Wexford as is Conor Lehane for Cork. I don’t recall a huge amount of scrimmaging these guys did either, but they certainly got lots of possession.

Do we in Kilkenny have midfielders capable of this role which knits your defensive and attacking units together? Do we have midfielders capable of an alternative game plan which will outwit the current opposition game plan.

I would agree with you totally but I don't know if it's a Kilkenny only problem. I think there're two types of players used in midfield.
1. Most of the players other counties use in the role you've articulated very well would have started out life in either defence or attack. I think players need to have the following attributes.
-talented hurler comfortable on the ball
-naturally athletic
-hungry for work
-very good vision and reading of the game
-calm under pressure
-ability to make the killer pass
I suppose we have a few lads who can play that role
Richie Hogan, Padraig Walsh, Cillian Buckley, Mark Bergin, Conor Fogarty
Young lads coming through that fit that mold
Kevin Kelly, Richie Leahy, Sean Morrissey, Billy Ryan

The problem with all of the above is their either not ready to be put in midfield for the seniors or their needed in attack or defence and are you robbing Peter to pay Paul. Some of the above played midfield for the county at underage, off the top of my head Buckley, Kelly and Leahy all did and very well too. The other issue with some of these types of players is their either overly attacking or defensively minded and end up doing too much of one or the other and aren't balanced in their midfield play.

2. You have lads that are what I would term a natural midfielders and have played in that position most of their life and don't do as well playing in the forwards or backs. They have all the attributes from above in abundance. I think the players we have like this would be.
Michael Fennelly, Ollie Walsh, Luke Scanlon.

don't get me wrong these guys can play in attack or defence and will acquite themselves capably but they're always most effective at 8 or 9.


Our midfield from the last day missed the ability to create that link.
Lester will give you all the work and is a good hurler but he doesn't spray the ball around as required and can get a bit flustered when under pressure.
Paddy Deegan for me is not the colour of an intercounty midfielder. Don't get me wrong I think he's a good player with loads of potential. He has tonnes of heart and no little skill but I would have him firmly in the half back line driving out of defence, again he doesn't spray the ball around.
I don't think either have the incredible vision or reading of the game to be that super effective link that midfield should be.

Look at where Joe Canning plays on Sunday and the kind of ball he wins or recieves but more importantly the ball he delivers on a plate to the Galway forwards. I know he's not technically playing midfield but he spends a huge amount of time out there as the play maker. Joe and David Burke are destroying teams by David either feeding Joe or supporting him and they have a great understanding and ability to find each other as the surge through defences.

tbiggertycome

Village87 wrote: »

Very good point regarding midfielders, i highlighted the lack of performance from Conor Fogarty over the past year, neither skillful or mobile enough out there, when Mick Fennelly went we were cleaned out in midfield in the All Ireland final, I would love to see Cillian Buckley out there full time, speed and athleticism to burn, but we also need him in the backline.

I wouldn't agree that Conor Fogarty isn't skillful or mobile enough but I would say he is definitely defensively minded, thats not the worst thing. I think Conor was the perfect foil for Mick Fennelly and they complimented each other incredibly well when playing together. Fogarty seems to have struggled to adjust to having different partners with him in midfield and they don't seem to be on the same page which makes Fogarty look bad as he was the one with the high standard for that position coming in. Most on here agreed he was very unlucky/robbed not to get an All Star for midfield in both 2014 & 2015. If anything Fogarty has got stronger and faster but I think a lack of a trusted partner has caused him problems and he has gone back to what he knew. He started playing more defensively to try and stop the ship sinking and eventually Cody has put him in the backs.

Village87

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that Conor Fogarty isn't skillful or mobile enough but I would say he is definitely defensively minded, thats not the worst thing. I think Conor was the perfect foil for Mick Fennelly and they complimented each other incredibly well when playing together. Fogarty seems to have struggled to adjust to having different partners with him in midfield and they don't seem to be on the same page which makes Fogarty look bad as he was the one with the high standard for that position coming in. Most on here agreed he was very unlucky/robbed not to get an All Star for midfield in both 2014 & 2015. If anything Fogarty has got stronger and faster but I think a lack of a trusted partner has caused him problems and he has gone back to what he knew. He started playing more defensively to try and stop the ship sinking and eventually Cody has put him in the backs.

Mick Fennelly was a powerhouse and whoever you put in beside him would look good, and add the work rate of Eoin Larkin Kilkenny would dominate the middle third, and win as a team. Conor Fogarty is good to win a ruck maybe stop a man and do his own job but we lack class out there since the loss of Fennelly and to a less degree Larkin.

We need lads out there who can express themselves like Jamie Barron, take on lads, use a short pass, find runners, link up play etc. Fogarty and Deegan for me are very similar. Id have Cillian Buckley there, he put on a great display against Tipp in the league

blackcard

Kilkenny have played 7 games in League and Championship this year. A repeat of their form against Clare, Waterford, Dublin, Cork or Wexford in the League or Wexford in the Championship could see Kilkenny struggle on Saturday. KK really needs the likes of Paul Murphy, Conor Fogarty, Walter Walsh, Richie Hogan to rediscover their form.

Nickindublin

blackcard wrote: »

Kilkenny have played 7 games in League and Championship this year. A repeat of their form against Clare, Waterford, Dublin, Cork or Wexford in the League or Wexford in the Championship could see Kilkenny struggle on Saturday. KK really needs the likes of Paul Murphy, Conor Fogarty, Walter Walsh, Richie Hogan to rediscover their form.

I agree with you. I also think this game is the ideal opportunity to blood maybe one or two players who you would not necessarily do against Tipp or Waterford. I can also see at least one of the big players getting the chop.

babyjesus14

Nickindublin wrote: »

I agree with you. I also think this game is the ideal opportunity to blood maybe one or two players who you would not necessarily do against Tipp or Waterford. I can also see at least one of the big players getting the chop.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Wally taken out of the firing line and used as an impact sub. His form hasn't been good this year particularly compared to his All Star winning form of last year.

Nickindublin

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised to see Wally taken out of the firing line and used as an impact sub. His form hasn't been good this year particularly compared to his All Star winning form of last year.

I think he is the most likely. Although Richie if not 100% fit could also be benched. It will be very interesting to see how the team lines out especially 2-9.