Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Dionysis

usualstripes wrote: »

Decent post.
Everyone that posts here knows we have had incredible success over the last 16 years. Because we have had serious players who continued for years and won all Irelands we don't have any right to assume we will beat all before us.
Put that westmeath team up against limerick, tipp or wexford and they would account for themselves well.
Yes they missed a lot of scores but if we can get over the line v wexford it gives us great momentum and this will translate to the senior set up.
We will know our opponents for the qualifiers monday and it's win or bust from there.
I understand mick fennelly probably won't start but there is a chance he will play some part.
Leahys form and recovery from injury will also help our cause.
If we could just structure our defensive lines correctly as below give us every chance.

Murphy
Murphy
Joyce
Fogarty
Padraig
Cleere
Buckley
Lester
Deegan
Walter
TJ
Leahy
Aylward
Colin
Hogan

Mick fennelly, bolger, Billy ryan could all get game time and a possible inclusion of donnelly.
Richie hogan and walter could be moved out at different times around midfield.

I think that it would be better to have Holden in full
Back or wingback/ centre back, and put Fogarty back into midfield, than to go with combat nation of Lester and Deegan as our midfield.
Wally and Fogarty midfield for me.


Not sure that Cleere is good enough and strong enough to play centre back. Was average last Wednesday night.

From midfield I'd go
Fogarty
Wally
Donnelly
TJ Reid
Hogan
Aylward
Fennelly
Bolger

If it's Tipp we play I'd put Donnelly on P Maher and tell him to not let P Maher catch the ball. Hurl up and tap down to the ground. Make Maher hurl off the ground, or run backwards to collect it. That's the way to beat him.

usualstripes

Dionysis wrote: »

I think that it would be better to have Holden in full
Back or wingback/ centre back, and put Fogarty back into midfield, than to go with combat nation of Lester and Deegan as our midfield.

Holden could go in full, and leave joyce out in the corner which would leave Fogarty out to midfield instead of deegan. Or he could go centre back, leave joyce in full and cleere in the corner but I don't think that will happen. Confidence is key here. The lads will be up against it but it's up to themselves to show they can drive on. The big leaders we had are gone but others gave the opportunity to take their place

babyjesus14

Dionysis wrote: »

A guy from Cork who knows his hurling said to me that he was surprised with the U-21 KK team that played Dublin and Westmeath and said that we'll be down at senior level for awhile. He was surprised with the poor touch they had. He's seen them in both games and commented that limerick Tipp Clare or Galway would take the easily enough but didn't know enough about Wexford. I was a bit surprised as i would have thought that the ability is in the players but that the management, drive of the players and general desire to win is lacking in that side. This guy rightly called Cork having a dry period from as far back as early 00's as he coached underage and could see nothing coming through.

Which leads me to think, are we wishfully glossing over significant problems at underage in KK and making by these U-21s out to be better players than they actually are?

The Tipp team that got hockeyed by Limerick on Thursday night?! I'd have my doubts but only time will tell how good this Kilkenny Under 21 team are! And a Muster man bigging up Munster teams and hurling... God that's unusual!:rolleyes:

brookville

If we can avoid waterford/tipp first we might be able get the show back on the road.we have to get the team set up properly.I'd leave Joyce at full back and put padraig back in the backs hopefully his recovered from injury.Hogan has to be a concern as well. I'd expect cody to make a few changes I was impressed with delaney the other night he looked assured
Team I'd like to c presuming mick fennelly is out
Murphy
Murphy,joyce,delaney
Padraig,Buckley,fogarty
Leahy,lester
Wally,hogan,tj
Ger,colin,bolger
There's still the bones of a good team there if everyone was fit but that's the thing everyone's not fit and some are struggling for form and injuries
I think we'll definitely see changes and someone like John donnelly or scanlon could be drafted in or maybe joey or pender brought back.
Despite what people think I'd be very surprised if anyone wants to meet kk monday morning

tbiggertycome

babyjesus14 wrote: »

The Tipp team that got hockeyed by Limerick on Thursday night?! I'd have my doubts but only time will tell how good this Kilkenny Under 21 team are! And a Muster man bigging up Munster teams and hurling... God that's unusual!:rolleyes:

Agreed as I know the Boro beat that Tipp U21 team in a challenge earlier this year without a most of the Boros intercounty players from senior and U21. That Tipp U21 team was very weak this year (also very young). As was said on here earlier this year the Kilkenny U21 team beat them out the gate in a challenge match during the league.

I think a lot posters on here are being very hard on this group. I think they will improve as they gain confidence and if they get over Wexford & most likely Aintrim, I wouldn't have any fears for them in an AI final. They may not win it but they will make the winners earn it if they don't win it. This is a talented bunch who will hopefully give us a good supply into the seniors over the next year or two and help right the ship going forward.

tbiggertycome

From the hurling ranking thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057160431&page=26

Thanks to the "HurlingRanker"

Week ending June 18th 2017

Position, previous, change, Team, Points
1st (1) = Galway 8841
2nd (2) = Tipperary 8699
3rd (6) +3 Cork 8581
4th (3) -1 Kilkenny 8535
5th (5) = Clare 8511
6th (4) -2 Waterford 8412
7th (7) = Wexford 8300
8th (8) = Dublin 8055
9th (9) = Limerick 7942
10th (10) = Offaly 7216
11th (11) = Laois 7159
12th (12) = Carlow 6750
13th (13) = Kerry 6731
14th (14) = Westmeath 6646
15th (15) = Antrim 6326
16th (16) = Meath 6296
17th (17) = Wicklow 5883
18th (18) = Kildare 5814
19th (19) = Down 5775
20th (20) = London 5635
21st (21) = Derry 5375
22nd (22) = Mayo 5336
23rd (23) = Armagh 5061
24th (24) = Roscommon 4673
25th (25) = Donegal 4402
26th (26) = Tyrone 4342
27th (27) = Monaghan 4041
28th (28) = Longford 3612
29th (29) = Warwickshire 3568
30th (30) = Louth 3554
31st (31) = Sligo 3060
32nd (32) = Leitrim 2883
33rd (33) = Cavan 2485
34th (34) = Lancashire 2479
35th (35) = Fermanagh 2371


So in the draw on Monday we being 4th in the rankings are up against either the 2nd, 6th, 9th & 11th or 12th best teams in the country.
The Munster teams have to face the 4th, 8th, 10th and 14th. These rankings are always fairly accurate and I think if we're focused and can get a bit of team cohesion in the 3 weeks break we've had we can take any of thew 4 teams in the draw if we're like we were against Wexford again I'd only fancy us against Laois or Carlow.

dubcat51

usualstripes wrote: »

Decent post.
Everyone that posts here knows we have had incredible success over the last 16 years. Because we have had serious players who continued for years and won all Irelands we don't have any right to assume we will beat all before us.
Put that westmeath team up against limerick, tipp or wexford and they would account for themselves well.
Yes they missed a lot of scores but if we can get over the line v wexford it gives us great momentum and this will translate to the senior set up.
We will know our opponents for the qualifiers monday and it's win or bust from there.
I understand mick fennelly probably won't start but there is a chance he will play some part.
Leahys form and recovery from injury will also help our cause.
If we could just structure our defensive lines correctly as below give us every chance.

Murphy
Murphy
Joyce
Fogarty
Padraig
Cleere
Buckley
Lester
Deegan
Walter
TJ
Leahy
Aylward
Colin
Hogan

Mick fennelly, bolger, Billy ryan could all get game time and a possible inclusion of donnelly.
Richie hogan and walter could be moved out at different times around midfield.

Deegan witth lester would leave us short on pace in midfield.I would go back to last years team with 2 changes,bolger and awlyard for blach and kelly.
Murphy
Murphy
Joey
Pender
Padraig
Joyce
Buckley
Fogary
Mick/ ollie walsh
Walter
Richie
Tj
Ger
Colin
Bolger.

Topcat32

Dionysis wrote: »

A guy from Cork who knows his hurling said to me that he was surprised with the U-21 KK team that played Dublin and Westmeath and said that we'll be down at senior level for awhile. He was surprised with the poor touch they had. He's seen them in both games and commented that limerick Tipp Clare or Galway would take the easily enough but didn't know enough about Wexford. I was a bit surprised as i would have thought that the ability is in the players but that the management, drive of the players and general desire to win is lacking in that side. This guy rightly called Cork having a dry period from as far back as early 00's as he coached underage and could see nothing coming through.

Which leads me to think, are we wishfully glossing over significant problems at underage in KK and making by these U-21s out to be better players than they actually are?

Did the guy from Cork know who won minor 3 years ago and could easily won it again 2 years ago. But then again if the guy is from Cork he must know what he is talking about, I didnt see any problems with the touch of the Kilkenny team against Westmeath, what I did see was a home team of a county which had targeted the match as one of their biggest games of the year put their bodies on the line more than the Kilkenny team did, how for example he thinks Clare have a good under 21 team this year is a bit of a mystery to me.

randd1

On the underage debate..

My uncle coaches and has coached U14 for a few years now with his local club.

He said to me the players are there across the county, the enthusiasm is there, and the skill is definitely there.

But the problem he faces the most is matches. He maintains due to development squads and schools teams, the underage clubs aren't getting any games.

With lads going to development squads, schools games, county games, there's no other games for clubs than a few challenge matches, and clubs are unwilling to play without their better players. He said to me they're lucky if they get 10 games a year at any age group. And because some lads aren't getting games, they're giving up.

He reckons the development system is fine, but that a blitz league based on North/Central/South divisional format where clubs are re-assigned on geographical layout should be brought into the county. We'd be talking 3 14/16 team leagues for young lads to play independently from county, schools and development squads.

The blitz scenario would be if you had a team that has 25 lads available, 15 start, the other 10 come on an play the second half.

He reckons it would keep lads hurling and compliment the development squads by keeping lads in competitive matches to develop naturally, and more importantly, balance out the number of games between the regular club players and development squads/county/schools players.

Dionysis

Topcat32 wrote: »

Did the guy from Cork know who won minor 3 years ago and could easily won it again 2 years ago. But then again if the guy is from Cork he must know what he is talking about, I didnt see any problems with the touch of the Kilkenny team against Westmeath, what I did see was a home team of a county which had targeted the match as one of their biggest games of the year put their bodies on the line more than the Kilkenny team did, how for example he thinks Clare have a good under 21 team this year is a bit of a mystery to me.

I think your missing his point, on what he saw he didn't rate us, which is understandable considering we have been poor twice in the two games we've played. I know we won, but we have not set down a marker for other sides to be wary about. And when you struggle against Westmeath questions are going to be asked. Regarding having won the minor in 2014 and getting to the semi in 2015, KK won the minor in 08, lost final on 09 and won in 2010. What did those minor teams win at U21 level?
I would agree with you as I said regarding talent, but the performances now over the past two games has other counties thinking that this KK side has not much too it. He's entitled to his opinion as you are, and to be fair he going on what he's seeing today, you're going on what happened years ago. The proof will be in the performances, let's see how we do against Wexford.

Dionysis

dubcat51 wrote: »

Deegan witth lester would leave us short on pace in midfield.I would go back to last years team with 2 changes,bolger and awlyard for blach and kelly.
Murphy
Murphy
Joey
Pender
Padraig
Joyce
Buckley
Fogary
Mick/ ollie walsh
Walter
Richie
Tj
Ger
Colin
Bolger.

E Murphy
P Murphy
Holden
Cleere/ Prendergast
Walsh
Joyce
Buckley
Fogarty
Wally ( Mick Fennelly is gone and should be discounted when picking a side you cannot rely on him being there)
Donnelly ( still think that we need to develop this lad asap, we need someone in the forwards who can catch a ball aside from TJ).
TJ Reid
R Hogan
Aylward
Fennelly
Bolger

Subs
Kevin Kelly
M Bergin
R Leahy
P Lyng
L Ryan
Joe Lyng
Deegan
Cleere or Prendergast
O'Shea
Lennon
Fennelly

To be fair we might not rate last years side but they were better (esp in the backs) than this years, with the newcomers.

usualstripes

Dionysis wrote: »

E Murphy
P Murphy
Holden
Cleere/ Prendergast
Walsh
Joyce
Buckley
Fogarty
Wally ( Mick Fennelly is gone and should be discounted when picking a side you cannot rely on him being there)
Donnelly ( still think that we need to develop this lad asap, we need someone in the forwards who can catch a ball aside from TJ).
TJ Reid
R Hogan
Aylward
Fennelly
Bolger

Subs
Kevin Kelly
M Bergin
R Leahy
P Lyng
L Ryan
Joe Lyng
Deegan
Cleere or Prendergast
O'Shea
Lennon
Fennelly

To be fair we might not rate last years side but they were better (esp in the backs) than this years, with the newcomers.

I agree re fennelly but if he can make it a some stage what a boost that would be.
I think leahy will drive on from last week and could feature at either midfield or half forward.
Donnelly certainly worth the punt and not forgetting billy ryan, albeit he wasn't in top form last week

babyjesus14

Dionysis wrote: »

I think your missing his point, on what he saw he didn't rate us, which is understandable considering we have been poor twice in the two games we've played. I know we won, but we have not set down a marker for other sides to be wary about. And when you struggle against Westmeath questions are going to be asked. Regarding having won the minor in 2014 and getting to the semi in 2015, KK won the minor in 08, lost final on 09 and won in 2010. What did those minor teams win at U21 level?
I would agree with you as I said regarding talent, but the performances now over the past two games has other counties thinking that this KK side has not much too it. He's entitled to his opinion as you are, and to be fair he going on what he's seeing today, you're going on what happened years ago. The proof will be in the performances, let's see how we do against Wexford.

In fairness the '12 Under 21 lost an All-Ireland final to an outstanding Clare team many whom back boned Clare to a Senior win the following year and were about to embark on a 3-in-a-row in the grade. And the '13 team lost a Leinster Final to Wexford after a goalkeeping error by Aaron Duggan in the last minute.

Pigeon Chaser

Eoin Murphy

Paul Murphy
Kieran Joyce
Joey Holden

Padraig Walsh
Cilllian Buckley
Conor Fogarty

Michael Fennelly (Assuming fit enough)
Kevin Kelly

Walter Walsh
TJ Reid
Richie Hogan

Richie Leahy
Colin Fennelly
Ger Aylward


Play a 2 man full forward line , dropping Leahy to the half forward line.

Drop Richie Hogan back to half back line in a Tadgh De Barca role, act as a sweeper, look up and dictate delivery to our 2 man ff line , which has possibility of being lethal.

Yes, reinstate Joey. He is an all-star and a fine hurler. Got badly exposed in the AIF but has rarely let us down. Even JJ would have been cleaned that day, such was the capitulation of all around him. He was far from the worst.

Finally, I would like to see K.Kelly tried midfield. Has the presence of mind and ability to be able to dictate the play from there. Has never really worked out on the ff line as he doesn't have the acceleration. Good hurling brain.


I don't share the pessimism if most posters here. We hit some very bad wides in Wexford Park, yet still weren't too far away. There is no team I don't think we are capable of beating. We do need positivity. And I think how Cody sets up the team / tactics applied are more important than the personnel

The way I see it is Tipp are out in front, and close behind are the chasing pack of about 6 or 7 all of whom are of similar ability.

Still think we are a good bet @ 10/1 but we need Cody to have them highly motivated and tactics need to be spot on.

Looking forward to the draw tomorrow.

Hope we get them Tipp bastards.

dastardly00

Just thinking that if we get Waterford in the draw tomorrow morning, and they get home advantage, I presume it will be in Walsh Park, so it'll be ridiculously hard to get tickets.

jeff bingham

dastardly00 wrote:

Just thinking that if we get Waterford in the draw tomorrow morning, and they get home advantage, I presume it will be in Walsh Park, so it'll be ridiculously hard to get tickets.

15k roughly is it? Or is there any works going on there?
Looking forward to the draw. Should be interesting

Village87

Limerick, would have took that before hand

WhatsGoingOn2

Kilkenny v Limerick
Dublin v Laois
Offaly v Waterford
Tipp v Westmeath

brookville

Is it at home?

jeff bingham

WhatsGoingOn2 wrote:

Kilkenny v Limerick Dublin v Laois Offaly v Waterford Tipp v Westmeath

Are these all going ahead Saturday evening ya? Will they all be on at same time? Was in work so couldn't concentrate on the draw and what they were saying

dastardly00

jeff bingham wrote: »

Are these all going ahead Saturday evening ya? Will they all be on at same time? Was in work so couldn't concentrate on the draw and what they were saying

The times of the matches won't be confirmed until the CCCCCCCC meet this afternoon.

Most likely will be two matches at 5pm and two at 7pm.

dastardly00

Village87 wrote: »

Limerick, would have took that before hand

Yeah I would have taken Limerick at Nowlan Park also.
It's not going to be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but definitely better than drawing Tipp or Waterford.

usualstripes

dastardly00 wrote: »

Yeah I would have taken Limerick at Nowlan Park also.
It's not going to be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but definitely better than drawing Tipp or Waterford.

Is it confirmed for nowlan park?

Village87

Kilkenny were pulled out first anyway

brookville

Reported on hoganstand website we're at home dunno how reliable that is but my thinking was 1st team out had home advantage

granturismo

brookville wrote: »

Reported on hoganstand website we're at home dunno how reliable that is but my thinking was 1st team out had home advantage

Yes you're right the game will be in Nowlan Park;
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0626/885536-big-guns-avoid-each-other-in-hurling-qualifiers/

kfrp

Happy with the draw, a decent test.

If we can't beat Limerick we don't deserve to go any further in the championship.

Need a few of the team to come back into some form now.

brookville

Look it's going to be a tough match limerick are a decent team.Home advantage will be a help.obviously we'll have to improve considerably from the last performance.Maybe we're better getting limerick than a weaker team.The setup of the team will be vital.we'll have to go back to basics and put lads back in their right positions.hopefully the few injured lads have recovered

Nickindublin

This was the draw I was hoping for. Need a good test but not Waterford or Tipp at this stage.

kk.man

This game will be a benchmark of where we are.