Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

Cornerback1 · 13-06-2017 07:27PM

I don't understand why there is a week between the next 2 games - surely there should be 2 weeks between them, for all the teams concerned.

Less teams at the higher end of hurling while everybody (except New York), as of today, is still in the football championship.

phkk · 13-06-2017 08:15PM

unrealtime wrote: »

All young men ffs. Hogan seems to have hamstring problems for a number of years. I wonder why hamstrings can't be sorted. No hamstring problems in my time; think it's connected someway with training methods today.

And back to my original point. Richie Hogan, Mick Fennelly and TJ have been on the go so long now and have been/still are fantastic servants to the county. These men have put their bodies on the line time and time again. After winning numerous All-Irelands, while us supporters are enjoying the excesses of Christmas, these boys are out in the rain/snow and sh*te already doing the mundane, much dreaded stamina running on cold winters nights. These men are not MACHINES! That constant wear and tear impinges on the body and that yard of pace finally goes. That spring in the step, call it what you like, sharpness, mobility, movement all suffer over time. Training has evolved so much in the last 15 years and I think that is why we will rarely see hurlers/footballers playing on until their mid thirties- the bodies eventually say enough is enough.
All three aforementioned are all CLASS hurlers, all hurlers of the year, and definitely some of Kilkenny's best hurlers ever. TJ was still one of the top performers on Saturday night but without reaching hurler of the year heights-but we CAN'T expect that every match, he is human after all. I thought Richie battled away too but is having trouble with hamstrings/back I know. If he's missing out on trainings, that will catch up, especially when you come up with boys like Chin, O'Keeffe, Murphy, Breen, Nolan jumping out of their skins.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 13-06-2017 08:29PM

I don't think I've ever seen a penalty as good as TJ's 2nd! Absolutely unsavable

phkk · 13-06-2017 08:31PM

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen a penalty as good as TJ's 2nd! Absolutely unsavable

Henry's vs Tipp 2010 would be up there too, remember the good ol' days with 3 on the line!! That was a cracker too!!

Noddy33 · 13-06-2017 08:58PM

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Village87 wrote: »

I was advocating that Mark Bergin got his chance when called back in and started and All Ireland Semi Final, some might work, others may not. Other members on the forum brought up the idea of calling Pat Harley back based on performances recently, i supported the idea of keeping options open at the moment for any player that can improve the team. Competition of some sort is needed if that means calling in older players then try it.

John Dalton was on the minor team of 03, Pat Hartley was on the minor team of 05 which was beat in the first round by Dublin if my memory serves me right.

Sorry, i apologise it was the '03 team that they were both on. Pat Hartley was not on the '05 Minor team, so your memory doesn't serve you right! He's 32.

Pat Hartley is 30 and not 32......he was Richie Power captained minor winning team in 03 and 04 minor team that lost to Galway in a replay

unrealtime · 13-06-2017 09:12PM

I think he is probably the same age as Joyce i.e. too old to play hurling

Twiceasnice97 · 13-06-2017 09:29PM

Village87 wrote: »

TJ 30 this year,

Richie Hogan 29 or 30 soon

Fennelly 33 next birthday,

Time is catching up on these,

TJ seems in the best order but the poor lad is carrying 2 or 3 lads

TJ reid doesn't score from play any more.

Twiceasnice97 · 13-06-2017 09:33PM

C__MC wrote: »

I cannot comprehend how Wexford suddenly have turned the screw and Kilkenny have become an average team. It's virtually both the same teams from last year, a mediocre Dublin beat Wexford out the gate. On paper, Kilkenny are a better team then Wexford, after all the Majority of this team won Leinster at a canter last year.

Agree with a lot of posters on here, lads need to be played in position and tactics need to be employed and improvements made on key areas. Kilkenny delivery of the ball is in fact terrible, bar fennelly very few of there forwards can take on a man and score. Always 2nd best to a breaking ball as well and there shape just disappears as the game goes on. Walter Walsh isn't mobile enough for the half forward line nor is blanchfield. Play them inside or drop them. I have been harsh on j Holden on other threads but he was An all star two years ago, let's see can he redeem himself. Richie hogan needs to play around the 40 where he does damage.

The draw from hell really is tipp, cork or Waterford. The pace and power in those teams (judging via league and sat night) would cut Kilkenny open like a knife through butter. The draw is key, a favourable could ignite there season. However like Brendan Cummins said, it's a huge ask to win 5 games straight on current viewing.

It hasn`t been sudden.
It has been a steady decline as the younger players are nothing like the older lads that are leaving and that is taking hold now.
Codys greatest achievement was not 2008, it was 14 and 15

Twiceasnice97 · 13-06-2017 09:36PM

kilkennyboy wrote: »

The players of the level we are used to seeing
Are not their any more you just have to go to club games .we were spoilt best forward in county final last year was gorta.
Now i thought coady was probaly right
Going with walsh in the forward s. It showed intent .if hiš wideš go over it's a masterstroke
Ger alyward like wise we were doing all the hurling but not finishing.
In the league we saw leahy and pat lyng two for the future but both picked up niggles and will learn and improve.
Talk of john donnelly is nonsence way to early.
Still think joey is ahead of lennon and o shea.
As bad as thing went on the night we butchered at least 3 goal chances throw in the early wides and its a different discussion on here.
In a practice game in carton house richie reid was outstanding at wingforward that is where that came from.

The few things that are still eating me are

Buckly not following chin
He took over the game
Alyward being subed
We had a balance when he and colin were together in the first half he just needed to settle on it and draw a man or look back out the field
For runners.
Wally being so poor allstar last year and struggling so much this year.
As for wexford they are conceding so many goal chances they could be on the end of 5 goals against galway.and wont score that much.
A win against us might paper over cracks.
I hope we play lads in their best positions the next day get a few lads back drive on in training
And give whoever we get a real test .wexford were waiting six months for us after all.

what that actually showed was that the kilkenny wing backs were in trouble not that reid was going well

Django99 · 14-06-2017 12:52AM

phkk wrote: »

Henry's vs Tipp 2010 would be up there too, remember the good ol' days with 3 on the line!! That was a cracker too!!

I'm assuming you mean 09, and while that was a rocket of a penalty, it would have came back off Cummins head if he hadn't moved. I've watched it several times over and Cummins ducked down and tried to get his hurl to it.

The one TJ hit was unstoppable for a goalie on his own, and even with three on the line I couldn't see it being saved.

Village87 · 14-06-2017 08:54AM

unrealtime wrote: »

I think he is probably the same age as Joyce i.e. too old to play hurling

Maybe, Jackie wanted to stay on another year as he thought he had one more year left in him, Cody politely told him his time was up.

Jackie is nearly 35, he was badly needed Saturday evening, was ahead of Lennon, Joyce, Murphy, Fogarty and O Shea

unrealtime · 14-06-2017 10:48AM

As you infer Jackie at 35 is still a young man and, if good enough, should be considered. However I don't think he is quick enough in his reactions to play at the highest level any more. He is slow to release the ball and tends to get caught in possession too easily. I don't think it is possible to iron out the problems he has at this late stage. Anyone who is good enough irrespective of age (within reason) should get a chance to play. Fellows like Hartley and Joyce have years left in them, if good enough.

Realt Dearg Sec · 14-06-2017 11:40AM

Ffs we're in serious trouble if the solution is to bring in 32 year olds, and bring Jackie Tyrrell out of retirement. Sure why not bring back gorta while you're at it, best forward in the county last year.

There are loads of young hurlers in Kilkenny, the place is jammed to the rafters with them. If the objective is to build for sustainable success, you don't bring in lads who are half way to drawing a pension.

suirway · 14-06-2017 11:57AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Ffs we're in serious trouble if the solution is to bring in 32 year olds, and bring Jackie Tyrrell out of retirement. Sure why not bring back gorta while you're at it, best forward in the county last year.

There are loads of young hurlers in Kilkenny, the place is jammed to the rafters with them. If the objective is to build for sustainable success, you don't bring in lads who are half way to drawing a pension.

Agree completely!! As for the lad who suggested that Pat Hartley is the best fielder in intermediate others perhaps might argue that JJ Delaney and Tommy Walsh would have a say in that!! Maybe we should bring them back as well!

unrealtime · 14-06-2017 12:00PM

Tommy was dumped and JJ retired too early

Village87 · 14-06-2017 12:14PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Ffs we're in serious trouble if the solution is to bring in 32 year olds, and bring Jackie Tyrrell out of retirement. Sure why not bring back gorta while you're at it, best forward in the county last year.

There are loads of young hurlers in Kilkenny, the place is jammed to the rafters with them. If the objective is to build for sustainable success, you don't bring in lads who are half way to drawing a pension.

Id have Tomy Walsh corner back over Conor o Shea every day

dobbs2210 · 14-06-2017 12:46PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Ffs we're in serious trouble if the solution is to bring in 32 year olds, and bring Jackie Tyrrell out of retirement. Sure why not bring back gorta while you're at it, best forward in the county last year.

There are loads of young hurlers in Kilkenny, the place is jammed to the rafters with them. If the objective is to build for sustainable success, you don't bring in lads who are half way to drawing a pension.

"Jammed to the rafters with them"...good enough to play intercounty...well I go to all clubs games every single round and I'm baffled by that statement. Where or who the hell are they?

Standard of club games at senior level is awful, huge decline over past 5 years in the club senior hurling championship, year on year a huge decline.

dubcat51 · 14-06-2017 01:28PM

Agree with that.age shouldnt count young or old.tommy for o shea all day long.

Realt Dearg Sec · 14-06-2017 04:17PM

dobbs2210 wrote: »

"Jammed to the rafters with them"...good enough to play intercounty...well I go to all clubs games every single round and I'm baffled by that statement. Where or who the hell are they?

Standard of club games at senior level is awful, huge decline over past 5 years in the club senior hurling championship, year on year a huge decline.

I didn't say they were all good enough to play inter-county. If you read my last post on this subject I already acknowledged there are deeper problems. In fact that's my exact point, that it isn't just a matter of us having wrongly dropped some older players for new ones. I said we have loads of young hurlers. People are seriously suggesting that getting Tommy and Jackie and JJ and the like out of retirement (several years after retirement, mind you) as a solution to the problem. That's absolutely bananas, it is the definition of living in the past. For one thing, Jackie was there the last two years and was a shadow of his former self. The others are even longer out of the game. But that's neither here nor there, the whole conversation is ludicrous. If the problem is that the senior championship has declined in quality (and it has, I agree totally), then THAT's the problem that needs to be solved. Another year from Tommy and Jackie (I can't believe I'm even typing that), and where are we the following year? Do you really think we'll win an All Ireland with a bunch of aging greats? Or would that be, at best, staving off the inevitable, that deeper structural problems need to be faced in Kilkenny hurling?

Like I said in a post yesterday, Kilkenny GAA has, in the recent past, identified serious structural problems in how it was producing its teams from club to underage to senior intercounty, and it took action. The result was the greatest period of dominance in the history of the sport. On here some people's solution to the same problem would have been to force Peter Barry and Charlie Carter and Andy Comerford and DJ and the O'Connors to hurl until they keeled over.

usualstripes · 14-06-2017 05:03PM

suirway wrote: »

Agree completely!! As for the lad who suggested that Pat Hartley is the best fielder in intermediate others perhaps might argue that JJ Delaney and Tommy Walsh would have a say in that!! Maybe we should bring them back as well!

Suirway that was me and if you were at any intermediate games over the last few years you would see that. Im not advocating that some of these lads have to be brought in. I'm just saying even at his age he is a far better option for the next two years than conor o shea or robert lennon.
Pat Hartley did get his chance some years ago but was played in midfield in the league because of the talent we had in the backs. His position is as a back full stop. In relation to lennon and o shea these guys are fine hurlers but unless they improve in terms of speed and 1st touch they are not up to the standard required.
The likes of conor delaney, Jason cleere, joe lyng and Evan cody have to be given a decent run. Otherwise what's the point of having them on the panel.

With all of the doomsday talk if we go out with the following fit team in the qualifiers we could regain momentum again and start causing trouble for anyone.

Murphy
Murphy
Joyce
Fogarty
Padraig
Cleere
Buckley
M Fennelly
Walter
Richie hogan
TJ
Leahy
Bolger
Colin
Aylward

Subs

Joe lyng
Conor delaney
Evan cody
Conor o shea
Robert lennon
Lester ryan
Ollie walsh
Billy ryan
Liam blanchfield (a lot fitter)
James maher
Richie reid
Luke scanlon

Realt Dearg Sec · 14-06-2017 05:24PM

"relation to lennon and o shea these guys are fine hurlers but unless they improve in terms of speed and 1st touch they are not up to the standard required.
The likes of conor delaney, Jason cleere, joe lyng and Evan cody have to be given a decent run. Otherwise what's the point of having them on the panel."

Agree wholeheartedly with this. I wouldn't mind seeing Lennon in the half back line, but certainly not in the full backs. Conor O'Shea is grand but we know what we have in him, and it's not enough. The time to start playing the lads you mention is now, might as well see what we have. Can see a very different complexion on the team next year. Who knows who might surprise us, or what lads might get the kick in the arse they need to get back to their high standards?

dastardly00 · 14-06-2017 05:32PM

usualstripes wrote: »

Murphy
Murphy
Joyce
Fogarty
Padraig
Cleere
Buckley
M Fennelly
Walter
Richie hogan
TJ
Leahy
Bolger
Colin
Aylward

Wally in midfield?

dastardly00 · 14-06-2017 05:32PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I didn't say they were all good enough to play inter-county. If you read my last post on this subject I already acknowledged there are deeper problems. In fact that's my exact point, that it isn't just a matter of us having wrongly dropped some older players for new ones. I said we have loads of young hurlers. People are seriously suggesting that getting Tommy and Jackie and JJ and the like out of retirement (several years after retirement, mind you) as a solution to the problem. That's absolutely bananas, it is the definition of living in the past. For one thing, Jackie was there the last two years and was a shadow of his former self. The others are even longer out of the game. But that's neither here nor there, the whole conversation is ludicrous. If the problem is that the senior championship has declined in quality (and it has, I agree totally), then THAT's the problem that needs to be solved. Another year from Tommy and Jackie (I can't believe I'm even typing that), and where are we the following year? Do you really think we'll win an All Ireland with a bunch of aging greats? Or would that be, at best, staving off the inevitable, that deeper structural problems need to be faced in Kilkenny hurling?

Like I said in a post yesterday, Kilkenny GAA has, in the recent past, identified serious structural problems in how it was producing its teams from club to underage to senior intercounty, and it took action. The result was the greatest period of dominance in the history of the sport. On here some people's solution to the same problem would have been to force Peter Barry and Charlie Carter and Andy Comerford and DJ and the O'Connors to hurl until they keeled over.

Fantastic post Realt

usualstripes · 14-06-2017 06:20PM

dastardly00 wrote: »

Wally in midfield?

Yes. Wally to give 15 mins in each half midfield.
Have a think about it. He didn't hurl well last Saturday but it comes back to the same thing again. He didn't train for a week and a half before the match as he went over on his ankle. He wasn't in the thick of things as he should have been but he wasn't on his own there. On his game he would be dominant in the middle and his distribution from there is excellent

unrealtime · 14-06-2017 06:51PM

Glad Willie O'Connor was mentioned. He was 34 when he retired and as he had shown in the 2000 final the previous year, he was easily the best left full in the country. One certainly is not finished at 30 or 32. Indeed one is still a very young man.

Going further I predict that we will win no other All Ireland with Cody as manager.

DickoHara · 14-06-2017 07:11PM

The end of the greatest era ever last Saturday night in Wexford park, will brining back lads make a difference I don't think so was Pat Hartley that interested in the senior set up didn't he go to America for a summer when he was in contension for a place on the panel. April when kilkenny v Wexford in the park the writing was on the wall all spring we won two league matches against fourteen players the one in Thurles was a major disappointment to the players they couldn't get it over the line. I was hopeing last Saturday things would come right they didn't if present players are going to be reminded about past players it wont do them any good we all have to move on get back in contension for minor, u21, intermediate all Irelands in a couple of years we will be back with the seniors, Wexford wont stick that pace of hurling McGovern a few more of them were out on there feet Saturday evening at the end.

Realt Dearg Sec · 14-06-2017 07:36PM

unrealtime wrote: »

Glad Willie O'Connor was mentioned. He was 34 when he retired and as he had shown in the 2000 final the previous year, he was easily the best left full in the country. One certainly is not finished at 30 or 32. Indeed one is still a very young man.

As a 35 year old I'd be glad to agree with you. Sadly I think you'd struggle to find a single inter county manager who does, and there's a very good reason for that. My own definition of young changes every year, sadly our sport itself is pretty indifferent to our opinions on the subject.

babyjesus14 · 14-06-2017 07:59PM

dobbs2210 wrote: »

"Jammed to the rafters with them"...good enough to play intercounty...well I go to all clubs games every single round and I'm baffled by that statement. Where or who the hell are they?

Standard of club games at senior level is awful, huge decline over past 5 years in the club senior hurling championship, year on year a huge decline.

unrealtime wrote: »

Glad Willie O'Connor was mentioned. He was 34 when he retired and as he had shown in the 2000 final the previous year, he was easily the best left full in the country. One certainly is not finished at 30 or 32. Indeed one is still a very young man.

Going further I predict that we will win no other All Ireland with Cody as manager.

Are you to give an explanation for that prediction?

unrealtime · 14-06-2017 08:12PM

'Cos he has completely lost the plot since last September when we were the second best team around and by now his team has completely crashed as a result of his lousy management. He has destroyed any prospects that the team had by his strange machinations. Time will tell if my prediction is right but that's the way I feel.

babyjesus14 · 14-06-2017 08:16PM

unrealtime wrote: »

'Cos he has completely lost the plot since last September when we were the second best team around and by now his team has completely crashed as a result of his lousy management. He has destroyed any prospects that the team had by his strange machinations. Time will tell if my prediction is right but that's the way I feel.

How has he lost the plot? What strange machinations? Would you ever entertain the notion that the players just are not good enough?

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*