Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

Very Bored

Fuhrer wrote: »

It would take an incredibly stupid person to believe the thing you suggested. The point I was making, as is clear to everyone else apart from you apparently, is that Zidane was great because he abandoned the majority of Islams teachings, the only reason he said he was a non practising Muslim was because he was born one.

The only respite we have is that the majority of Muslims dont actually believe the teachings of Islam, not because Islam is in any peaceful or tolerant.

From a guy with a username like Fuhrer... :rolleyes:

Anyway, its absolutely laughable that you believe that Zidane was great because he became a non practising Muslim. When you've worked out a way to explain Muhammad Ali's greatness in this instance let me know. I'll be waiting.

Bannasidhe

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Thank you for bringing up this point. I was hoping someone would.

You posit that since Irish people emigrated (which resulted in violence) that it is karmic justice that Muslims emigrate to other countries (which results in violence). You posit that since we did something (moving en masse - when there were no laws against this), it follows that we can not oppose a similar action by other groups (where there ARE laws against it - the Dublin Regulations).

This is farcical.

Irish people emigrated to two notable places: UK and the US. In both instances, the Irish migrated en mass. This resulted in the forming of Irish-enclaves and ghettoes. We'll take one as a point of argument: Boston.
In Boston, Irish people lived with Irish people, they retained their Irish culture (Boston is still proud of its Irish heritage today). You know what happened because of this? The Irish became a criminal demographic. Huge numbers of Irish became entwined in Irish gangs and had to police their own areas.

Remember Al-Capone and those gangsters who made enormous sums of money from the alcohol smuggling during the Prohibition? That crime enterprise was started by, and dominated by, the Irish. Remember those race riots during the American civil war that saw black people lynched in the streets? That was carried out by Irish mobs as they saw blacks as a threat to their progression.

So, your argument hinges upon the belief that since Irish people went to the US and UK, that somehow this justifies tremendous migration of Muslims? We can look back at history and see that, categorically, mass migration is absolutely a bad idea. As we have seen with our own people's history.

You are arguing a fallacy and relying upon whataboutery to guilt-trip people into supporting your failed, philanthropic notions. This is nonsensical.

If you want to argue why mass migration is something we should support, you need to actually come up with a reason why we should support it, and not simply try to guilt trip us into supporting it.





If they do not want to be Westernized, why come to a Western country? They are just as safe in Qatar or the UAE as they are here. And Qatar and the UAE are much closer to them geographically, and much wealthier than us per person (Qatar is one of the wealthiest regions in the world per capita).



They are safe in Lebanon or Jordan or Turkey, or Greece, or Macedonia, or Serbia. Why do we have dozens of videos of them saying they want to go to Germany if all they are fleeing is war?

And "Western" refers to the shared ideals. French, German, Swedes, Polish, British, American, Canadian, Australian... They all integrate here amazingly well, just as the Irish can integrate amazingly well into their countries.

Nope.

All I was saying was that in a period of sustained violence in the UK by a minority of Irish people who claimed to be acting for Ireland there was a significant migration of Irish people - many of whom were unskilled, claimed social welfare and lived in mono-ethnic ghettos - to the UK who did little to prevent this migration.

Judging by calls to completely the close the borders of Europe and/or expel all Muslims I am sure that had the UK closed their borders and expelled all Irish people it would have been welcomed as the obvious and sensible solution.

But go ahead and build wordy castles in the sky where I apparently spoke of karma and justification if you want.

Al Capone eh. Whatta guy.

Lebanon is a fricking paradise by the way - my brother-in-law just returned from a tour there and can't believe we all aren't flocking to move there as its so fabulous.

RobertKK

screamer wrote: »

The human cost of religious ideals. Sadly not one drop of human blood is worth wasting on bull**** religious ideals no matter what religion. Anyways I happen to think all religions are just made up mumbo jumbo. Thankfully some of us have evolved enough to know that killing is wrong not because your religion says it is. other Neanderthal savages have thousands of years to go yet to get to that point and have no place in our societies.

Blaming religon is like blaming science for guns and bombs.

Sunflower 27

Muslims in Ireland have condemned ISIS, back in July

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-muslims-to-hold-protest-condemning-islamic-state-1.2296009

Fuhrer

Very Bored wrote: »

From a guy with a username like Fuhrer... :rolleyes:

Anyway, its absolutely laughable that you believe that Zidane was great because he became a non practising Muslim. When you've worked out a way to explain Muhammad Ali's greatness in this instance let me know. I'll be waiting.

Its the first point I made, id ill make it to you over and over and over if I have to.


What about being a Muslim made Zidane a great footballer?

What about being a Muslim made the Murderers from last night, viscous, savage murderers?


The answer to those two questions are absolutely nothing and absolutely everything.

Sunflower 27

Another news article from the Irish Times today.

Irish Muslim leaders have described the Paris terrorist attacks as an affront to Islam.

In a statement representing the Irish Council of Imams, Dr Ali Selim said: “Murder, the most horrendous act of terrorism, is strictly forbidden in Islam. In a deterring way Allah states that the murder of one person is as evil as killing all people.”

Dr Selim said the Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) “stresses that these crimes can by no means be classified as a just struggle”.

The ECRF is headquartered in Clonskeagh, south Dublin, at the mosque of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Ireland.

“As it condemns all types of terrorism; state, individual and extremist groups, the ECFR appeals to the entire world to live in peace, respect human rights and shun violence and create a just society where atrocities like these can not flourish.”

“We share the shock and the horror of what was shown on the internet and television.”

In a separate statement, Shaykh Dr Umar Al-Qadri, Imam of the Islamic educational and cultural centre in Dublin’s Blanchardstown, said: “My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Paris and every other place on earth plagued by sick men with weapons and bombs.

“Terrorists have no religion whatsoever. Their religion is intolerance hatred for Peace. The news from Paris is very frightening.

“May God be with us all against all types of extremism and terrorism.”

Dr al-Qadri, who is chairman of the Irish Muslim Peace and Integration Council, helped to organise a “Not in Our Name” demonstration in Dublin city last July against Islamic state, inviting Muslims from across Ireland to protest against religious extremism.

Fuhrer

RobertKK wrote: »

Blaming religon is like blaming science for guns and bombs.

Really?

Blaming something that tells people to kill and murder innocent men, women and children to get into eternal paradise is the same as blaming science?

You really want people to believe that?

MS1962

RobertKK wrote: »

Blaming religon is like blaming science for guns and bombs.

Islam was founded on bloodshed by a maniac.

Carnacalla wrote: »

You cannot say that and I whole heartedly disagree. Did people say that about irish catholics back in the 1970's? Some people seem to have a closed mind with a short memory

Read my post above properly. And the op mod note.

Amirani

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

I assume that seeing as numerous Middle East states have issued condemnations, as have immams, and Islamic institutions, as well as ordinary Muslims on social media, your argument is also void? The Clonskeagh mosque has also condemned previous radical Islamic attacks before, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't issue something similar after last night.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/killers-do-not-represent-islam-irish-muslim-leaders-stress-1.2430626

Saipanne

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Muslims in Ireland have condemned ISIS, back in July

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-muslims-to-hold-protest-condemning-islamic-state-1.2296009

Was the Clonskeagh mosque involved?

Facekicking 2 The Future

As for moderates:

Pew Research 2007:

26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

I remember a feminist argument that said, "If you knew that 10% of the sweets in a jar were poisonous, would you eat one." This was to highlight the well-known "fact" that 10% of men are potential rapists. Well, we could use the same argument here using real, researched facts

walshyn93

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Another news article from the Irish Times today.

Irish Muslim leaders have described the Paris terrorist attacks as an affront to Islam.

God forbid we might offend Islam. Would they be so kind as to give the names of those recruiting in their mosques to Special Branch?

Sunflower 27

Saipanne wrote: »

Was the Clonskeagh mosque involved?

You'd have to ask someone who was there.

Pocoyo

The easiest solution to this is allow them to war with israel without the threat of western interference by the end of it two evil barbaric groups of backwards religious fundamentalists will be no more.

The western world backed israel ISIS have nothing on the israeli's when it comes to war crimes.

inforfun

Description of the area where it all happened.

This is the land of hipster socialists. These neighborhoods recently elected a female socialist mayor, as well as a slew of Green Party candidates, even as the rest of the country voted for the more conservative and anti-immigration parties on the Right.

Tonight’s attacks show the same uncanny sense of symbolism as the January massacres. They targeted neighborhoods where people are more inclined to be tolerant, liberal and progressive. And they targeted the greatest monument to France’s multi-ethnic, pluralistic success: the hallowed ground of the Stade de France.

The full text

Sunflower 27

walshyn93 wrote: »

God forbid we might offend Islam. Would they be so kind as to give the names of those recruiting in their mosques to Special Branch?

I think you missed the point of his comment.

IrishTrajan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nope.

Then you need to phrase your arguments more concisely.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All I was saying was that in a period of sustained violence in the UK by a minority of Irish people who claimed to be acting for Ireland there was a significant migration of Irish people - many of whom were unskilled, claimed social welfare and lived in mono-ethnic ghettos - to the UK who did little to prevent this migration.

You're right, the Republicans were a minority in the UK... And we've seen the damage they wrought. To say a huge minority/majority of Irish people didn't offer at least tacit support would be farcical.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Judging by calls to completely the close the borders of Europe and/or expel all Muslims I am sure that had the UK closed their borders and expelled all Irish people it would have been welcomed as the obvious and sensible solution.

The UK would have been entirely right to do that. And they actually interred a lot of Irish people, my own grandparents and uncles being among them. Do I hate the British for that? Do my uncles and grandparents? Nope. They regret being locked up, but they don't hate the English for doing it.

Of course there were gross miscarriages of justice (like Guildford) but that doesn't mean steps shouldn't be taken at all.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But go ahead and build wordy castles in the sky where I apparently spoke of karma and justification if you want.

Al Capone eh. Whatta guy.

Lebanon is a fricking paradise by the way - my brother-in-law just returned from a tour there and can't believe we all aren't flocking to move there as its so fabulous.

Yeah, when you can't back up any argument or guilt trip someone into believing your crock of bullshít, just be facetious. It works amazingly well

CaraMay

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Another news article from the Irish Times today.

Irish Muslim leaders have described the Paris terrorist attacks as an affront to Islam.

In a statement representing the Irish Council of Imams, Dr Ali Selim said: “Murder, the most horrendous act of terrorism, is strictly forbidden in Islam. In a deterring way Allah states that the murder of one person is as evil as killing all people.”

Dr Selim said the Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) “stresses that these crimes can by no means be classified as a just struggle”.

The ECRF is headquartered in Clonskeagh, south Dublin, at the mosque of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Ireland.

“As it condemns all types of terrorism; state, individual and extremist groups, the ECFR appeals to the entire world to live in peace, respect human rights and shun violence and create a just society where atrocities like these can not flourish.”

“We share the shock and the horror of what was shown on the internet and television.”

In a separate statement, Shaykh Dr Umar Al-Qadri, Imam of the Islamic educational and cultural centre in Dublin’s Blanchardstown, said: “My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Paris and every other place on earth plagued by sick men with weapons and bombs.

“Terrorists have no religion whatsoever. Their religion is intolerance hatred for Peace. The news from Paris is very frightening.

“May God be with us all against all types of extremism and terrorism.”

Dr al-Qadri, who is chairman of the Irish Muslim Peace and Integration Council, helped to organise a “Not in Our Name” demonstration in Dublin city last July against Islamic state, inviting Muslims from across Ireland to protest against religious extremism.

And yet they refuse to provide the security forces here with details of any militants in their congregations

Saipanne

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

You'd have to ask someone who was there.

If they weren't signed up, it doesn't mean a ****ing thing.

MS1962

It also need be noted that Islam teaches Muslims two approaches to life depending on circumstances. In a minority, Muslims are to be peaceful, to speak of peace, and to be nice. But when they are on the up, they are to be aggressive. This reflects Muhamoud's own approach. Speak of tolerance when you are small, but when you are strong enough, the violent assertion begins.

smash

The arrest of a 51-year-old man in Germany last week after firearms were discovered in his car has been linked to the Paris attacks, according to media reports.
Public broadcaster Bayrischer Rundfunk said German authorities informed French officials about the arrest of the man near the German-Austrian border on November 5. It did not provide a source for its information.
Bavarian state police spokesman Ludwig Waldinger confirmed that firearms, explosives and hand grenades were found.
Mr Waldinger said: “We are providing no further information at this point.”

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/man-arrested-in-germany-in-connection-to-paris-attacks-705689.html

Hande hoche!

Pocoyo wrote: »

The easiest solution to this is allow them to war with israel without the threat of western interference by the end of it two evil barbaric groups of backwards religious fundamentalist will be no more.

The Israelis would probably win. There is much more of a qualitative gap than in the Yom Kippur war.

Saipanne

Hande hoche! wrote: »

The Israelis would probably win. There is much more of a qualitative gap than in the Yom Kippur war.

The Israelis would kick the holes off them, just like last time.

RobertKK

MS1962 wrote: »

Islam was founded on bloodshed by a maniac.

We cannot allow evil people in a terrorist organistion to generalise all Muslims. This same group have in Iraq and Syris, burned Muslims alive, buried Muslims alive and killed many Muslims.
We should not judge good people of a religion with the very worst people who proclaim they are Muslim.
We have to support the good people, not isolate them.

Fuhrer

MS1962 wrote: »

It also need be noted that Islam teaches Muslims two approaches to life depending on circumstances. In a minority, Muslims are to be peaceful, to speak of peace, and to be nice. But when they are on the up, they are to be aggressive. This reflects Muhamoud's own approach. Speak of tolerance when you are small, but when you are strong enough, the violent assertion begins.

It also teaches Muslims to lie about their believes to non-believers.

Saipanne

RobertKK wrote: »

We cannot allow evil people in a terrorist organistion to generalise all Muslims. This same group have in Iraq and Syris, burned Muslims alive, buried Muslims alive and killed many Muslims.
We should not judge good people of a religion with the very worst people who proclaim they are Muslim.
We have to support the good people, not isolate them.

Mohammed did all the same stuff, buddy.

DamagedTrax

Hande hoche! wrote: »

The Israelis would probably win. There is much more of a qualitative gap than in the Yom Kippur war.

No question on that. Israel, through various avenues, has managed to amass a frighteningly powerful army and intelligence.

And they dont seem the type to be shy about using it to its fullest power.

martingriff

Dkinn wrote: »

France and white flags....uh oh

Seriously you are going to come out with that crap with what has happened. How about educate yourself with Frances responses to ISIS in Mali

Wibbs

MS1962 wrote: »

During the first 7 centuries of Christendom, there was peace, and the advancement of education, culture, and healthcare.

I really dunno what books you've been reading. The western Roman empire fell for a start kicking off all sorts of local power grabs and wars. Slavery continued on apace and was not regarded by the Church as particularly problematic.

When Islam arrived, it brought carnage, mayhem, and massacres. Massacres in the Holy Land and North Africa, and invasions of many places, including Spain. Wherever Islam has appeared, it has brought only carnage and destruction.

Again that's some cracker of a history book you have. After Rome fell and the Byzantines were weakened one of those local power grabs that kicked off was Islam and it in many ways filled the void of the lost Rome. Yep there were battles and land grabs, but many were remarkably peaceful, certainly to civilians. The Islamic take over of Jerusalem for example. Local Jews were pleasantly surprised that the new Islamic rulers were far more accommodating of their faith and places of worship compared to the Christian Romans and Greeks previously. That first caliphate, the utopia many of the current radicals hanker after wistfully was a golden age. They advanced science and medicine and law, gathered up "lost" Greek texts, formed some of the first universities and had remarkably tolerant attitudes to other religions, at least "people of the book". You were in a far better place as a Jew in the Muslim empire, than you were as a Jew in the Christian lands. Interestingly and somewhat ironically the Muslims of that time were not nearly so "medieval" as those radicals today.

dr.fuzzenstein

Has one look at thread.
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/58072993.jpg
/goodbye.