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So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?
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Lucy chambers wrote: »As a sex worker who has worked in Norway and Sweden I can assure you that the criminalisation of sex does not restrict any market for sellers - the amount of ladies advertising have remained static too. Unfortunately Sweden don't really publicise that because it doesn't look as exciting as prohibition but a little simple research will tell you that trafficking cases can and do still happen quite regularly, if there was no demand there would be no supply.
Actually thank you for your time, and your considered post. If you read back through my posts though, I have consistently acknowledged that the Swedish model on it's own is completely ineffective without other support structures in place.It's interesting that you think early education will increase choice in employment, therefore eradicating all the naughty ladies of the night. My own education wasn't exactly short, indeed I feel quite able to make my own choices and I do not feel I lack the ability to do other things as you so kindly advocate (ironic) - I chose sex work. And why not? my body, my choice. Surely in 2015 we should be moving towards a progressive society? Restriction of choice is not progressive. Women aren't in need of protecting from men, or indeed themselves.
Education does increase choices in employment. Because of your level of education, you had that freedom to choose sex work. Many people who enter sex work, do so because they lack the education to enable them to have more choices. I don't have any issue whatsoever with anyone who has the opportunity to make those choices of their own free will. I engage with people who feel that they did not or do not have that choice, because of their lack of education which limits their potential opportunities, and therefore their potential choices, or their freedom to choose for themselves, if you will.
With regard to your comments that women do not need protecting from men, I'm sure you are also aware of male sex workers existence? It's not about protecting people from people, for me at least. It's about giving people the tools to make more opportunities and more choices for themselves. One of the most basic tools in enabling people to have the same freedom you have to make that choice for yourself, is education, better education, better opportunities to educate themselves. Is that too much to ask for in 2015 in what is supposed to be a progressive society?
It's simply time prostitution was put to bed. It's an archaic means to earn a living, and really it has no place in a progressive society IMO, for anyone, of any gender, sex, or sexual orientation. It's not all about you, and it's not all about me. It's about society, and what kind of a society affords every member in that society with equal opportunities.Another thing to consider is I work extensively with people with disabilities. It's all too easy to write of clients as the stereotypical brown Mac wearer in need of perverted release, but actually that isn't true either. Many people aren't in the exceedingly lucky position of being able to go and meet sexual partners - some people aren't even in the lucky position of being able to leave their chair. These aren't black and white situations and silly restrictive laws which further criminalise the vulnerable can't be considered a good thing.
Thanks for your time
Fair play to you. Genuinely. I've often got a pain in my face trying to explain to people that sex work is not the sum total of a person, and that there's more to a person who is involved in the sex industry than just sex. I too work with people who are intellectually and physically disabled, and I am acutely aware of the challenges they face in their daily lives. I certainly wouldn't be so quick to write them off as undateable (I was only discussing this in another thread on here the other night about dating agencies in the UK for people with disabilities), so I wouldn't see people with disabilities, or their opportunities with regard to sexual fulfilment, in any way hampered by their physical disability.
People with intellectual disabilities, I'm not sure if you're aware of their current legal position in Irish law that they are deemed unable to give informed consent in sexual matters, but this position too is being reviewed under the proposed Mental Capacity bill. That bill too has been dragging on for the last three years and is no closer to becoming an Act, just like the current Sexual Offences bill is being dragged on with no apparent resolution in sight yet.
That doesn't seem to stop some people getting their knickers in a twist though.0 -
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@Austria
sex traficking, slavery, kidnapping, holding people against their will are all illegal right now, the new law does not change that in any way
what it does do is make it illegal to pay for sex, and any man caught will be a sex offender
Okay, this is the first post that spells it out for me in plain English, regarding the nature of the new law itself.
Is this indeed the case?
This law will come into effect and, from that point on, the police will have the authority to arrest and detain ALL those paying legitimate independent sex workers, and charge them as being sex offenders??
Is this what is in fact happening??
Regarding "Ordinary Decent John"'s comments....
He is currently an active client of sex workers.
He claims no change will come about regarding his situation, and he will continue to be able to avail of such services, despite modifications to the law.
So which is it?
Are clients gonna be prosecuted for paying for sex or no?0 -
Under_Graduate wrote: »Okay, this is the first post that spells it out for me in plain English, regarding the nature of the new law itself.
Is this indeed the case?
This law will come into effect and, from that point on, the police will have the authority to arrest and detain ALL those paying legitimate independent sex workers, and charge them as being sex offenders??
Is this what is in fact happening??
Regarding "Ordinary Decent John"'s comments....
He is currently an active client of sex workers.
He claims no change will come about regarding his situation, and he will continue to be able to avail of such services, despite modifications to the law.
So which is it?
Are clients gonna be prosecuted for paying for sex or no?
Thats the plan, dont know how they intend to enforce it tho,I cant see too many sex workers ratting out their clients.0 -
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Under_Graduate wrote: »Okay, this is the first post that spells it out for me in plain English, regarding the nature of the new law itself.
Is this indeed the case?
This law will come into effect and, from that point on, the police will have the authority to arrest and detain ALL those paying legitimate independent sex workers, and charge them as being sex offenders??
Is this what is in fact happening??
Regarding "Ordinary Decent John"'s comments....
He is currently an active client of sex workers.
He claims no change will come about regarding his situation, and he will continue to be able to avail of such services, despite modifications to the law.
So which is it?
Are clients gonna be prosecuted for paying for sex or no?
Yes, that is the case. It will be prohibited to buy any sexual service from any sex worker, and it will make criminals out of consenting adults. Courts will be allowed to publicise the name of anyone convicted.0 -
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It's funny that you think that logically makes any senseOne eyed Jack wrote: »Criminalising the buyers is not restricting the choices the seller has. The seller is not being criminalised. They may still choose to engage in sex work, but their market will be that much more restricted and the effect of that is that eventually sex work just won't be worth getting into because it won't be a viable career choice. That's still leaving the person with a choice.Under_Graduate wrote: »Okay, this is the first post that spells it out for me in plain English, regarding the nature of the new law itself.
Is this indeed the case?
This law will come into effect and, from that point on, the police will have the authority to arrest and detain ALL those paying legitimate independent sex workers, and charge them as being sex offenders??
Is this what is in fact happening??
Regarding "Ordinary Decent John"'s comments....
He is currently an active client of sex workers.
He claims no change will come about regarding his situation, and he will continue to be able to avail of such services, despite modifications to the law.
So which is it?
Are clients gonna be prosecuted for paying for sex or no?Thats the plan, dont know how they intend to enforce it tho,I cant see too many sex workers ratting out their clients.
They'll observe John entering the escort's premises, see him leave after an hour or so and have her advert online with a complete list of the sexual services she offers. It won't take much to prove a case from there.Fred Swanson wrote: »This post has been deleted.
He seems to be stating that he's willing to take the risk, but unless his regular escorts are working without advertising it is a risk.0 -
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