So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 5:45pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Criminalising the buyers is not restricting the choices the seller has. The seller is not being criminalised. They may still choose to engage in sex work, but their market will be that much more restricted and the effect of that is that eventually sex work just won't be worth getting into because it won't be a viable career choice. That's still leaving the person with a choice.

this is pure Ruhama logic, you call them ****nuts in another post, but you hold the very same ideas, no difference at all

you do the very same in every thread about feminism, on one hand you call feminists fools, but then you parrot their ideas verbatim

are you a nun or a feminist

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think just criminalising buying sex on it's own will have any effect at all on society. I think the Swedish model on it's own will be completely ineffective. What I actually advocate is early education, and proper education, and creating opportunities for people to gain legitimate employment so that prostitution just isn't an appealing prospect for them any more and it will literally die out due to the lack of demand on the sellers end due to the deterrent for buyers of the possibility of a criminal conviction, and the lack of prostitution being a viable career choice when people can choose other careers.

this is just foolish nonsense

they are in it for the money, plenty of escorts are very well educated but they chose the job because the money is so good, and the hours so short, next Thursday when you get paid, divide your take home pay by 200 and thats how long the average escort needs to work to make the same money as you

they make more on a slow Monday morning than most people make in a week

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 5:56pm

nokia69 wrote: »

this is pure Ruhama logic, you call them ****nuts in another post, but you hold the very same ideas, no difference at all

you do the very same in every thread about feminism, on one hand you call feminists fools, but then you parrot their ideas verbatim

are you a nun or a feminist

There's not much point in telling you that you really couldn't be more wrong at this stage, is there? You have me pegged as a feminist and that's it. Your problem is that you see feminism everywhere - anyone with an opinion you don't agree with: FEMINIST!!

As you say yourself -

this is just foolish nonsense

they are in it for the money, plenty of escorts are very well educated but they chose the job because the money is so good, and the hours so short, next Thursday when you get paid, divide your take home pay by 200 and thats how long the average escort needs to work to make the same money as you

they make more on a slow Monday morning than most people make in a week

Some of them are well educated nokia, most of them aren't. Some of them can charge big money, most of them can't.

I won't brag, but you'd be wrong in your assessment of our income comparisons. It's one of the reasons I got out of the industry, and I'm now legitimately self-employed

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 6:03pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's not much point in telling you that you really couldn't be more wrong at this stage, is there? You have me pegged as a feminist and that's it. Your problem is that you see feminism everywhere - anyone with an opinion you don't agree with: FEMINIST!!

if you constantly parrot feminist rhetoric then I think its fair to call you a feminist

do you actually think that if you deny being a feminist then no one will notice your feminist ideas/arguments

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 6:05pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I won't brag, but you'd be wrong in your assessment of our income comparisons. It's one of the reasons I got out of the industry, and I'm now legitimately self-employed

I believe you Jackie

no really, I do :rolleyes::rolleyes:

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 6:08pm

nokia69 wrote: »

if you constantly parrot feminist rhetoric then I think its fair to call you a feminist

do you actually think that if you deny being a feminist then no one will notice your feminist ideas/arguments

And there was me thinking that I would have to identify as a feminist first before I could be called a feminist. Well that's shaken me to my core!

If it means that much to you nokia, carry on thinking I'm a feminist, if it helps you like, because it's sure as hell doing nothing for me, and it only means that I can't then take your arguments all that seriously.

(what little arguments you have presented, that is)

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 6:16pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And there was me thinking that I would have to identify as a feminist first before I could be called a feminist. Well that's shaken me to my core!

I'm pretty sure in real life you do self identify as a feminist, its just on boards you won't admit it, maybe you think people will take your ideas more seriously

needhelpguy · 31-10-2015 6:21pm

Escorts in ireland work on the assumption that you are paying them for their time and companionship only (which is not illegal) and whatever happens between two consenting adults during that time is their own business (also not illegal). I can't see the new law changing that. I would love to see this challenged in court.

Also love the way this new law is being lumped in with the child sex offences overhaull. No better way to reduce dissent for a bill than to staple it together with a taboo subject.

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 6:30pm

needhelpguy wrote: »

Also love the way this new law is being lumped in with the child sex offences overhaull. No better way to reduce dissent for a bill than to staple it together with a taboo subject.

pretty disgusting when you think about it

an adult man has consensual sex with an adult woman and he then ends up on the sex offenders register, while nothing happens the woman

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 6:38pm

nokia69 wrote: »

pretty disgusting when you think about it

an adult man has consensual sex with an adult woman and he then ends up on the sex offenders register, while nothing happens the woman

What?

Have you read the proposals in the bill at all?

New provisions to address gender anomaly in incest laws

Provisions are included in the Bill which will increase the penalty for incest by a female to up to life imprisonment. This is in line with the existing penalty for incest by a male.

Source: http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR15000487

G'wan nokia, say it anyway - "FEMINIIIIIIST!!" :pac:

RustyNut · 31-10-2015 6:40pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Criminalising the buyers is not restricting the choices the seller has. The seller is not being criminalised. They may still choose to engage in sex work, but their market will be that much more restricted and the effect of that is that eventually sex work just won't be worth getting into because it won't be a viable career choice. That's still leaving the person with a choice.

What's the difference between me paying someone to drop around to my house a couple of times a week to clean up after me, or getting someone to call around now and again to get me off, as long as I pay the agreed rate.

Is a providing a service for payment not an honorable way to earn your keep.

Austria! · 31-10-2015 6:40pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Some of them are well educated nokia, most of them aren't. Some of them can charge big money, most of them can't.

I won't brag, but you'd be wrong in your assessment of our income comparisons. It's one of the reasons I got out of the industry, and I'm now legitimately self-employed

Just to be clear, you're saying you were a sex worker and that's how you know the numbers or percentage of escorts making large or small amounts of money?

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 6:42pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What?

Have you read the proposals in the bill at all?

I have yes

this thread is NOT about incest, I don't know what you're on about now

RDM_83 again · 31-10-2015 6:48pm

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a job and if it was allowed to be treated as such it's no different to any other. Of course people are hurt and exploited by it but freedom of choice and all that. If they aren't willing to leave and find something else that is their decision to stay. Making it legal doesn't have to change how a person feels about the work or the people involved in it, it just gives us a better system that looks out for the needs of all involved. Not a perfect system but at least one that takes the criminal aspect out of it.

Is Prostitution like other jobs though?
While I understand the harmful effect that criminalization has, is this type of sex work something that is impact free even in a well managed system.

Letting somebody use your body for money isn't the same as working in ALDI, I would be curious about what the long term psychological effects are RE depression, ability to form "normal" relationships, drug use etc (due to the job itself not the criminality aspect), remember people can be pretty messed up and/or abused in subtle ways.

We don't tend to legalize (its different if something is already legal due to social intertia) other types of activity that can be harmful.

And is there an argument that legalization increases prostitution?I would hazard it does, in places in mainland Europe prostitution appears to be more common and without the same social stigma for users of prostitutes which likely increases use.

A Regular John · 31-10-2015 7:05pm

I am a john as my name suggests.

I habitually use escorts and have done for the last 5 years or so. This new law will not stop me and I shall explain why.

The websites that advertise escorts are not located within the jurisdiction of the Irish state and cannot be touched. They will continue as before. The ladies will continue to advertise themselves and the johns such as myself will contact them and make bookings. Nothing will change in that regard. I has 3 or 4 regulars I that I see and I shall continue to do so.

The ladies that I have met are all doing it because they want to, not because they are being forced to. They are doing it of their own free will. Of the many ladies I have met, one is a primary school teacher and another is a nurse so they are highly educated people earning a bit extra to make ends meet. Most of the ladies would like to pay tax and become legitimate businesses. Ruhanna and the feminazis are full of sh1t.

At the end of the day the state cannot prove that happens behind the closed doors of the apartments. I could be there for a chat for all they know. I just wish that the state, feminazis and nuns would keep the fcuk out of my business and leave me and my fellow johns alone. The idea that we should be lumped in with peadofiles is quite frankly sickening.

Crossubrigs · 31-10-2015 7:12pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is Prostitution like other jobs though?
While I understand the harmful effect that criminalization has, is this type of sex work something that is impact free even in a well managed system.

Letting somebody use your body for money isn't the same as working in ALDI, I would be curious about what the long term psychological effects are RE depression, ability to form "normal" relationships, drug use etc (due to the job itself not the criminality aspect), remember people can be pretty messed up and/or abused in subtle ways.

We don't tend to legalize (its different if something is already legal due to social intertia) other types of activity that can be harmful.

And is there an argument that legalization increases prostitution?I would hazard it does, in places in mainland Europe prostitution appears to be more common and without the same social stigma for users of prostitutes which likely increases use.

There are countless other jobs which are hazardous. Mining, logging, Formula One, boxing, Policing, Bouncers etc.

Lucy chambers · 31-10-2015 7:17pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Criminalising the buyers is not restricting the choices the seller has. The seller is not being criminalised. They may still choose to engage in sex work, but their market will be that much more restricted and the effect of that is that eventually sex work just won't be worth getting into because it won't be a viable career choice. That's still leaving the person with a choice.

I don't think just criminalising buying sex on it's own will have any effect at all on society. I think the Swedish model on it's own will be completely ineffective. What I actually advocate is early education, and proper education, and creating opportunities for people to gain legitimate employment so that prostitution just isn't an appealing prospect for them any more and it will literally die out due to the lack of demand on the sellers end due to the deterrent for buyers of the possibility of a criminal conviction, and the lack of prostitution being a viable career choice when people can choose other careers.

I have no interest in accommodating nor supporting people who want to buy sex. It's that simple for me, and that's why while I say the Swedish model isn't ideal, it's a start, but without the other supports in place for people, it just looks to me like political posturing and nest-feathering among NGOs.

As a sex worker who has worked in Norway and Sweden I can assure you that the criminalisation of sex does not restrict any market for sellers - the amount of ladies advertising have remained static too. Unfortunately Sweden don't really publicise that because it doesn't look as exciting as prohibition but a little simple research will tell you that trafficking cases can and do still happen quite regularly, if there was no demand there would be no supply.

It's interesting that you think early education will increase choice in employment, therefore eradicating all the naughty ladies of the night. My own education wasn't exactly short, indeed I feel quite able to make my own choices and I do not feel I lack the ability to do other things as you so kindly advocate (ironic) - I chose sex work. And why not? my body, my choice. Surely in 2015 we should be moving towards a progressive society? Restriction of choice is not progressive. Women aren't in need of protecting from men, or indeed themselves.

Another thing to consider is I work extensively with people with disabilities. It's all too easy to write of clients as the stereotypical brown Mac wearer in need of perverted release, but actually that isn't true either. Many people aren't in the exceedingly lucky position of being able to go and meet sexual partners - some people aren't even in the lucky position of being able to leave their chair. These aren't black and white situations and silly restrictive laws which further criminalise the vulnerable can't be considered a good thing.

Thanks for your time

Austria! · 31-10-2015 7:21pm

A Regular John wrote: »

The ladies that I have met are all doing it because they want to, not because they are being forced to. They are doing it of their own free will. Of the many ladies I have met, one is a primary school teacher and another is a nurse so they are highly educated people earning a bit extra to make ends meet.

How do you know that? Is that based purely on them saying so? Are they irish? And even if you do know that now, how did you make sure they were working of their own choice before you visited?

RustyNut · 31-10-2015 7:23pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is Prostitution like other jobs though?
While I understand the harmful effect that criminalization has, is this type of sex work something that is impact free even in a well managed system.

Letting somebody use your body for money isn't the same as working in ALDI,

Do people who work in ALDI not use their bodies? Pushing,pulling,lifting etc. The only difference I see is the type of physical activity involved in each job.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is Prostitution like other jobs though?

We don't tend to legalize (its different if something is already legal due to social intertia) other types of activity that can be harmful.

The buying and selling of sex is legal right now and I dont think sex in itself is harmful.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is Prostitution like other jobs though?

And is there an argument that legalization increases prostitution?I would hazard it does, in places in mainland Europe prostitution appears to be more common and without the same social stigma for users of prostitutes which likely increases use.

So increased employment opportunities?

Crossubrigs · 31-10-2015 7:25pm

Austria! wrote: »

How do you know that? Is that based purely on them saying so? Are they irish? And even if you do know that now, how did you make sure they were working of their own choice before you visited?

I suppose it's the same in that you don't know that the waiter serving you in a restaurant is working of their own choice.

RDM_83 again · 31-10-2015 7:30pm

RustyNut wrote: »

Do people who work in ALDI not use their bodies? Pushing,pulling,lifting etc. The only difference I see is the type of physical activity involved in each job.

Its not the same thing, sex even at its most unemotional is different to lifting a heavy box. We and nearly every country recognizes this in the way that we treat rape as a much more serious offence than the simple negative physical effects

RustyNut wrote: »

The buying and selling of sex is legal right now and I dont think sex in itself is harmful.

So increased employment opportunities?

I don't think sex is harmful either but I don't think its simply neutral

but I am referring to the fact that increased legalization will likely draw more people into the industry

Yurt2 · 31-10-2015 7:34pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I don't think sex is harmful either but I don't think its simply neutral but I am referring to the fact that increased legalization will likely draw more people into the industry

I don't see this as a problem. Dutch, German and New Zealand society has not collapsed. And I think you may be overstating the effect regulation and protection will have on the numbers in sex work. It will certainly be more visible, which a certain cohort will of course have a problem with.

Lucy chambers · 31-10-2015 7:36pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its not the same thing, sex even at its most unemotional is different to lifting a heavy box. We and nearly every country recognizes this in the way that we treat rape as a much more serious offence than the simple negative physical effects

I don't think sex is harmful either but I don't think its simply neutral but I am referring to the fact that increased legalization will likely draw into industry

How? As you have just stated, sex is a very personal thing to some people. I'm sure that there won't be a recruitment drive that would convince people any differently, at the current time it is fully legal to sell sex and it will remain that way - it's illegal to have sex with a trafficked woman currently and rightly so.

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 7:43pm

Austria! wrote: »

how did you make sure they were working of their own choice before you visited?

the trafficking claims you hear about are bull****

the Labour government in the UK wanted to have similar laws in the UK, so they got the police to raid hundreds of brothels and massage parlours all across the UK, and they failed to find one person working against their will, do the same in Ireland and the result will be the very same

I watched the Liam Neeson film Taken a few weeks back, brilliant film, very entertaining, but its all based on urban myths, the number of people who watch it and think its a documentary is scary

A Regular John · 31-10-2015 7:45pm

Austria! wrote: »

How do you know that? Is that based purely on them saying so? Are they irish? And even if you do know that now, how did you make sure they were working of their own choice before you visited?

Yes, they are Irish and I have absolutely no reason not to believe them.

I am sorry that they don't conform to drug ridden husk of a woman that the nuns and church believe sex workers to be.

A Regular John · 31-10-2015 7:47pm

nokia69 wrote: »

the trafficking claims you hear about are bull****

the Labour government in the UK wanted to have similar laws in the UK, so they got the police to raid hundreds of brothels and massage parlours all across the UK, and they failed to find one person working against their will, do the same in Ireland and the result will be the very same

I watched the Liam Neeson film Taken a few weeks back, brilliant film, very entertaining, but its all based on urban myths, the number of people who watch it and think its a documentary is scary

Spot on.

The Gardaí are not finding trafficked women.

A Regular John · 31-10-2015 7:48pm

Lucy chambers wrote: »

As a sex worker who has worked in Norway and Sweden I can assure you that the criminalisation of sex does not restrict any market for sellers - the amount of ladies advertising have remained static too. Unfortunately Sweden don't really publicise that because it doesn't look as exciting as prohibition but a little simple research will tell you that trafficking cases can and do still happen quite regularly, if there was no demand there would be no supply.

It's interesting that you think early education will increase choice in employment, therefore eradicating all the naughty ladies of the night. My own education wasn't exactly short, indeed I feel quite able to make my own choices and I do not feel I lack the ability to do other things as you so kindly advocate (ironic) - I chose sex work. And why not? my body, my choice. Surely in 2015 we should be moving towards a progressive society? Restriction of choice is not progressive. Women aren't in need of protecting from men, or indeed themselves.

Another thing to consider is I work extensively with people with disabilities. It's all too easy to write of clients as the stereotypical brown Mac wearer in need of perverted release, but actually that isn't true either. Many people aren't in the exceedingly lucky position of being able to go and meet sexual partners - some people aren't even in the lucky position of being able to leave their chair. These aren't black and white situations and silly restrictive laws which further criminalise the vulnerable can't be considered a good thing.

Thanks for your time

It is great to see people like Lucy posting here telling it like it is. Fair play to you!

Mister Vain · 31-10-2015 7:49pm

It was only a matter of time before an escort or John made a contribution to the thread.

Austria! · 31-10-2015 7:50pm

Crossubrigs wrote: »

I suppose it's the same in that you don't know that the waiter serving you in a restaurant is working of their own choice.

Do you think there are comparable chances though between a random waiter and a random sex worker? If not, then it's not really the same.

nokia69 wrote: »

the trafficking claims you hear about are bull****

Lucy chambers wrote: »

a little simple research will tell you that trafficking cases can and do still happen quite regularly, if there was no demand there would be no supply.

31-10-2015 7:52pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Good thing they're not outlawing anything for morality reasons then, but for reality reasons

Do tell - what are the reality based arguments suggesting that outlawing the sale of sex by a consenting adult - to another consenting adult - is a good thing to do? I have read over the thread twice and have not seen any so far - certainly none from you. So be interesting to hear what they actually are.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are restrictions and conditions on what's legal and what isn't in relation to prostitution in this country.

As well there should be - as that is what people want when they say they want regulation. So currently it seems that prostitution IS legal in this country and to a degree IS regulated.

The options would then essentially be:

1) Make it illegal
2) Leave it as is
3) Improve laws and regulation.

I am in category three strongly. I do not know any of the arguments for being in Category 1. Perhaps you or someone else might enlighten me.

Crossubrigs · 31-10-2015 7:52pm

Austria! wrote: »

Do you think there are comparable chances though between a random waiter and a random sex worker? If not, then it's not really the same.

The evidence would suggest it is extremely rare for prostitutes to be trafficked, so yes, it is comparable.

So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

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