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So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

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13567…14

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    #62
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Yurt! wrote: »
    You realize for good many women that sex work is actually quite lucrative, far more lucrative for less hours than 'regular' professions. And with the advent of the internet they have more independence and autonomy. I'd be very surprised if even 1 or 2% of sex workers active in Ireland were being 'pimped' at this stage.

    Anecdotal I know, but I lived in what might be called a 'desirable' postcode in Dublin a number of years back. The house two doors down from me (nice large 4 bedroomed detatched redbrick) was owned and paid for in cash by a 'lady of the night'. Now that's not every sex workers experience I'm sure, but this woman was no downtrodden victim of trafficking or exploitation. And good luck to her I say.

    I find it interesting that the money is never talked about, every day of the week people move to Ireland to work for minimum wage, but feminists can't get their heads around the fact that a small number of people would move to Ireland to get paid 200 euro an hour


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    #63
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Yurt! wrote: »
    You realize for good many women that sex work is actually quite lucrative, far more lucrative for less hours than 'regular' professions. And with the advent of the internet they have more independence and autonomy. I'd be very surprised if even 1 or 2% of sex workers active in Ireland were being 'pimped' at this stage.



    You realise that sex work is not a profession? A profession requires professional qualifications. Sex work does not require any professional qualifications or specialist skills.

    Apart from that, I do of course realise that for many people (not just women, but many men too!), sex work is a lucrative business and they can maintain a very affluent lifestyle, but those independent workers are by far and away outnumbered by the vast majority of people involved in sex work for whom it is not the Belle DuJour fantasy lifestyle.

    It's very difficult to measure quantitive percentages for sex workers, the numbers of people involved, etc, because again, depending upon who you ask, you're likely to get figures that are either playing down the numbers, or, you're likely to get figures from a certain advocacy group that are just pie in the sky nonsense to justify their own continued funding stream from the State.


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    #64
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sadly, I can't see it being legalised given that the state is still enforcing the Catholic Church's stance on abortion.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #65
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You realise that sex work is not a profession? A profession requires professional qualifications. Sex work does not require any professional qualifications or specialist skills.

    Apart from that, I do of course realise that for many people (not just women, but many men too!), sex work is a lucrative business and they can maintain a very affluent lifestyle, but those independent workers are by far and away outnumbered by the vast majority of people involved in sex work for whom it is not the Belle DuJour fantasy lifestyle.

    It's very difficult to measure quantitive percentages for sex workers, the numbers of people involved, etc, because again, depending upon who you ask, you're likely to get figures that are either playing down the numbers, or, you're likely to get figures from a certain advocacy group that are just pie in the sky nonsense to justify their own continued funding stream from the State.

    It's a job and if it was allowed to be treated as such it's no different to any other. Of course people are hurt and exploited by it but freedom of choice and all that. If they aren't willing to leave and find something else that is their decision to stay. Making it legal doesn't have to change how a person feels about the work or the people involved in it, it just gives us a better system that looks out for the needs of all involved. Not a perfect system but at least one that takes the criminal aspect out of it.


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    #66
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »

    It's very difficult to measure quantitive percentages for sex workers, the numbers of people involved, etc, because again, depending upon who you ask, you're likely to get figures that are either playing down the numbers, or, you're likely to get figures from a certain advocacy group that are just pie in the sky nonsense to justify their own continued funding stream from the State.

    its not that hard to make a good guess

    most of it is advertised online and in Ireland one website covers over 90% of the market

    however the nuns/feminists will always tell lies, they just can't help themselves

    I would guess that there are about 1000 escorts in Ireland, maybe 300 in Dublin


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    #67
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    nokia69 wrote: »
    its not that hard to make a good guess

    most of it is advertised on line and in Ireland one website covers over 90% of the market

    however the nuns/feminists will always tell lies, they just can't help themselves

    Don't blame all this on feminists...plenty of men have a huge problem with prostitution being legalised. Probably because they don't want to risk being found out. A lot of women see the logic in making it legal and giving protection to the workers.


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    #68
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Don't blame all this on feminists...plenty of men have a huge problem with prostitution being legalised. Probably because they don't want to risk being found out. A lot of women see the logic in making it legal and giving protection to the workers.

    its legal now, how many times does this need to be pointed out

    its the new laws that makes changes

    the main force behind the new law is an alliance between nuns and feminists, very few men involved, one of the only people to oppose the law has been David Norris, a man who knows a little about sex laws and discrimination


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    #69
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You realise that sex work is not a profession? A profession requires professional qualifications. Sex work does not require any professional qualifications or specialist skills.

    You're playing word games now. Job, occupation, whatever.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Apart from that, I do of course realise that for many people (not just women, but many men too!), sex work is a lucrative business and they can maintain a very affluent lifestyle, but those independent workers are by far and away outnumbered by the vast majority of people involved in sex work for whom it is not the Belle DuJour fantasy lifestyle.

    Lots of professions and occupations aren't the ideal. Fishing in the Bering sea is dangerous, coal mining is dangerous, farmers get killed every year bringing food to your table. Waste work is stigmatized (not as bad as sex work) and terribly paid. Do we ban these activities, seek to drive them underground, or do we move to make them safe and improve conditions?

    The only difference between the above occupations and sex work in the public consciousness is the pious attitude of religious groups seeking to save the 'morally fallen woman', and the arrogant and frequently toxic line feminists take with their assumptions of 'patriarchy' and universal female victim hood despite evidence to the contrary (Never mind when they plug their ears and refuse to listen to the women they purport to 'protect').


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    #70
    Austria!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Austria!


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    for many people (not just women, but many men too!), sex work is a lucrative business and they can maintain a very affluent lifestyle, but those independent workers are by far and away outnumbered by the vast majority of people involved in sex work for whom it is not the Belle DuJour fantasy lifestyle.


    How do you know how that?


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    #71
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Austria! wrote: »
    How do you know how that?

    the feminists told her

    it must be true


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    #72
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    nokia69 wrote: »
    its legal now, how many times does this need to be pointed out

    its the new laws that makes changes

    the main force behind the new law is an alliance between nuns and feminists, very few men involved, one of the only people to oppose the law has been David Norris, a man who knows a little about sex laws and discrimination

    Plenty of women and feminists see those changes as a retrograde step. Of course Ruhama are going to protect their interests and its in their interests to maintain a victim mentality among sex workers. They have to justify their wages but they don't represent all women or feminists. Most women I know are in favour of regulation of the industry because we see it as the best way to protect all involved.


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    #73
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's a job and if it was allowed to be treated as such it's no different to any other.


    It's not any form of legitimate and taxable employment then if we must. That, for me is what constitutes a job, where a service is provided by someone who is self-employed and there are procedures in place for legal recourse if a customer is unsatisfied with the service they received.

    Could you envisage a time when a woman will take a man to court because he failed to make her orgasm even though she paid him to do so? No, neither can I. To say prostitution could ever be treated in society like any other job, is failing to recognise the number of reasons why it could never be so.

    Of course people are hurt and exploited by it but freedom of choice and all that. If they aren't willing to leave and find something else that is their decision to stay.


    I don't think people who are exploited actually have much choice in the matter. That's why they are exploited, because they don't have that freedom of choice you talk about. Most of them are forced out of the industry after an average of four years, that's the extent of their "career" for the vast majority of them. Their careers are dictated by market forces and demand, they are entirely dependent upon their body and what they are willing to do for money.

    Making it legal doesn't have to change how a person feels about the work or the people involved in it, it just gives us a better system that looks out for the needs of all involved. Not a perfect system but at least one that takes the criminal aspect out of it.


    And again, you're ignoring all of society going on around you to make the point about legislating for and regulating prostitution for the tiny, tiny minority of citizens who engage in it. The new bill proposes to criminalise the buyer, not the seller. I don't think it's going to be all that different in effect from what we have now, but decriminalising and regulating it simply has been shown not to work in other countries to address the welfare of people engaged in sex work.

    Like I said, I don't care about the "needs" of all involved, just those people working in the sex industry who as you say don't want to work in the sex industry and are looking for a way out, and those people who are thinking of getting into the sex industry because they feel they may have no other choices.


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    #74
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I don't think people who are exploited actually have much choice in the matter. That's why they are exploited, because they don't have that freedom of choice you talk about.

    Massive leap, entirely presumptive and infantilizing to the voices of sex workers you refuse to listen to. The overwhelming majority of sex workers polled in NI for instance take serious umbrage with the Swedish model you advocate.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Most of them are forced out of the industry after an average of four years, that's the extent of their "career" for the vast majority of them. Their careers are dictated by market forces and demand, they are entirely dependent upon their body and what they are willing to do for money.

    Professional athletes (and many other occupations) are subject to the exact same forces. You're doing that sex negative, sex stigmatizing thing again.


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    #75
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »

    Like I said, I don't care about the "needs" of all involved, just those people working in the sex industry who as you say don't want to work in the sex industry and are looking for a way out, and those people who are thinking of getting into the sex industry because they feel they may have no other choices.

    whats stopping these people getting another job, we all have choices

    if you want to put an end to prostitution just pay the sex workers 200 euro an hour for a "normal" job, the reason they became sex workers in the first place is because the money is so good


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    #76
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Massive leap, entirely presumptive and infantilizing to the voices of sex workers you refuse to listen to. The overwhelming majority of sex workers polled in NI for instance take serious umbrage with the Swedish model you advocate.


    I've listened to them, I disagree with them. It happens. Perhaps if you had read my earlier posts in this thread you would realise that I do not advocate the Swedish model.


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    #77
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I've listened to them, I disagree with them. It happens. Perhaps if you had read my earlier posts in this thread you would realise that I do not advocate the Swedish model.

    So what would you be in favour of?


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    #78
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    nokia69 wrote: »
    whats stopping these people getting another job, we all have choices

    if you want to put an end to prostitution just pay the sex workers 200 euro an hour for a "normal" job, the reason they became sex workers in the first place is because the money is so good


    Do you honestly believe they're all on €200 an hour nokia?

    There's nothing stopping them getting another job btw. That's my whole point - they actually have choices. They don't have to go into prostitution.


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    #79
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I've listened to them, I disagree with them. It happens. Perhaps if you had read my earlier posts in this thread you would realise that I do not advocate the Swedish model.

    Comment that you advocate for the Swedish model is withdrawn. I'm curious to know what exactly you advocate in that case?


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    #80
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    if you had read my earlier posts in this thread you would realise that I do not advocate the Swedish model.

    from reading your posts it looks like you do, yes you say its a bad idea but you seem to have the very same view of sex work as Ruhama

    its a bit strange jackie


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    #81
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe they're all on €200 an hour nokia?

    There's nothing stopping them getting another job btw. That's my whole point - they actually have choices. They don't have to go into prostitution.

    200 euro probably isn't too far off the mark. It's a damn sight more than minimum wage that's for sure.


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    #82
    Waltzraph
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 ✭Waltzraph


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe they're all on €200 an hour nokia?

    There's nothing stopping them getting another job btw. That's my whole point - they actually have choices. They don't have to go into prostitution.

    So why would you want to prevent them going into prostitution if they choose to?


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    #83
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe they're all on €200 an hour nokia?

    all of them, no, some charge more, some charge less
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    There's nothing stopping them getting another job btw. That's my whole point - they actually have choices. They don't have to go into prostitution.

    which is why the new law is so crazy, in some of your earlier posts you say that people are forced into and then 4 years later out of sex work


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    #84
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Their careers are dictated by market forces and demand, they are entirely dependent upon their body and what they are willing to do for money.

    Isn't that like most jobs then.


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    #85
    Carlo Ancelotti
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 94 ✭✭Carlo Ancelotti


    If someone wants to become a prostitute i think it should be legal, it should be controled and taxed
    Making things illegal just pushes them underground and into the control of criminals to line their pockets


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    #86
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    There's nothing stopping them getting another job btw. That's my whole point - they actually have choices. They don't have to go into prostitution.

    Why do you think it is appropriate to restrict the choices they do have?

    Do you think that criminalising the buying of sex will have an overall positive or negative affect on Irish society?


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    #87
    Mister Vain
    Registered Users Posts: 6,042 ✭✭✭Mister Vain


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe they're all on €200 an hour nokia?

    That does seem to be the going rate according to Escort Ireland. Prior to the recession they were charging €300 an hour, and there are a lot men willing to pay that.


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    #88
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Mister Vain wrote: »
    That does seem to be the going rate according to Escort Ireland. Prior to the recession they were charging €300 an hour, and there are a lot men willing to pay that.

    But surely you would only be paying for their time and anything else that happens between consenting adults is their own business.

    Your Honor.


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    #89
    arayess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭arayess


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Sadly, I can't see it being legalised given that the state is still enforcing the Catholic Church's stance on abortion.

    oh yawn...
    will you give it a rest. That church card is old and well overplayed.

    not everything revolves around the church surely the SSM-Marriage thing taught you that....or did you forget?

    for info
    I'm pro legalisation but pro-life.. there you are.
    In fact i'd also legalise all drugs too but that's another days rant.


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    #90
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Why do you think it is appropriate to restrict the choices they do have?


    Criminalising the buyers is not restricting the choices the seller has. The seller is not being criminalised. They may still choose to engage in sex work, but their market will be that much more restricted and the effect of that is that eventually sex work just won't be worth getting into because it won't be a viable career choice. That's still leaving the person with a choice.

    Do you think that criminalising the buying of sex will have an overall positive or negative affect on Irish society?


    I don't think just criminalising buying sex on it's own will have any effect at all on society. I think the Swedish model on it's own will be completely ineffective. What I actually advocate is early education, and proper education, and creating opportunities for people to gain legitimate employment so that prostitution just isn't an appealing prospect for them any more and it will literally die out due to the lack of demand on the sellers end due to the deterrent for buyers of the possibility of a criminal conviction, and the lack of prostitution being a viable career choice when people can choose other careers.

    I have no interest in accommodating nor supporting people who want to buy sex. It's that simple for me, and that's why while I say the Swedish model isn't ideal, it's a start, but without the other supports in place for people, it just looks to me like political posturing and nest-feathering among NGOs.


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    #91
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    nokia69 wrote: »
    from reading your posts it looks like you do, yes you say its a bad idea but you seem to have the very same view of sex work as Ruhama

    its a bit strange jackie


    There's no call for that kind of insult nokia! :pac:

    Seriously though, Ruhuma are a bunch of utterly useless fcuknuts, I wouldn't encourage anyone to go near them. I find them a detestable organisation and if you don't fit their "victim profile", they have no interest in so much as even talking to you.

    If one of the consequences of implementing the Swedish model is that it puts organisations like Ruhuma and the Immigrant Council of Ireland out of business, then that'll be no bad thing IMO.


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