So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

Should be legalised. What consenting adults do is between them and it might just help take the stigma out of working in the sex industry. It annoys me that women who are prostitutes are looked down on as subhuman or as sluts and whores. It's better protection for all involved to regulate it. Then the gardai can concentrate on dealing with with clients who seek out underage sex workers and the gangs who traffick victims.

There's about as much chance of that happening, as there is prostitution ever being legalised and regulated by the State in this country.

Bobeagleburger

This proposal is really forward thinking.

There's obviously a demand for it which I'd imagine while dropping won't go away.

Maybe regulating it? Not gonna happen with a conservative government in charge

Fleawuss

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean Fleawuss.

Well if someone is beaten by a pimp of if they're told you'll be thrown out on the street. If there's coercion then someone isn't a consenting adult they're being made do it.

Avatar MIA

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's about as much chance of that happening, as there is prostitution ever being legalised and regulated by the State in this country.

It currently is legal.

eviltwin

Fleawuss wrote: »

Well if someone is beaten by a pimp of if they're told you'll be thrown out on the street. If there's coercion then someone isn't a consenting adult they're being made do it.

But a lot of men and women do go into it of their own free will so why shouldn't they be allowed to do it and pay taxes and be protected? You're never going to stop illegal prostitution no matter what you do. There will always be a market for those workers who are vulnerable and illegal services. All you can do is divert resources to help those who really need it and provide proper support for the workers.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean Fleawuss.

Coercion, exploitation and so on. He's right in fairness. There are women sex workers on social media now who don't want any kind of interference in the way they do business and they're happy to be prostitutes or sex workers or whatever, and some people are now using this handful of women to bolster their case for prostitution to be legalised, while ignoring the fact that for every one of those women who are happy and quite successful in the sex industry, there are at least a thousand more women who aren't them, who are beaten, raped, abused and assaulted, living in squalor with not much hope of regulation doing anything for them... but it looks good on paper at least.

djflawless

I don't see the point...
Speeding, flicking fag butts on the ground and drugs already illegal...not really stopping people do it though is it??

MarkY91

Ireland is stuck in the mid 1900s with their laws. How our country even put same sex marriage to vote is beyond me seeing as we are still being raped by the Catholic churches life morals

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Coercion, exploitation and so on. He's right in fairness. There are women sex workers on social media now who don't want any kind of interference in the way they do business and they're happy to be prostitutes or sex workers or whatever, and some people are now using this handful of women to bolster their case for prostitution to be legalised, while ignoring the fact that for every one of those women who are happy and quite successful in the sex industry, there are at least a thousand more women who aren't them, who are beaten, raped, abused and assaulted, living in squalor with not much hope of regulation doing anything for them... but it looks good on paper at least.

The current system hasn't done much to help them. Why not try a different approach.

One eyed Jack

Avatar MIA wrote: »

It currently is legal.

It's not fully legal at all, which is what I was getting at. There are restrictions and conditions on what's legal and what isn't in relation to prostitution in this country.

Fleawuss

eviltwin wrote: »

But a lot of men and women do go into it of their own free will so why shouldn't they be allowed to do it and pay taxes and be protected? You're never going to stop illegal prostitution no matter what you do. There will always be a market for those workers who are vulnerable and illegal services. All you can do is divert resources to help those who really need it and provide proper support for the workers.

I don't know if it has or even could be quantified how many freely choose it. What you're saying makes sense too; I guess it's an area that there's no easy answers to.

Avatar MIA

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's not fully legal at all, which is what I was getting at. There are restrictions and conditions on what's legal and what isn't in relation to prostitution in this country.

It's not just semantics, being a prostitute is legal. How you go about it can make it illegal.

eviltwin

Fleawuss wrote: »

I don't know if it has or even could be quantified how many freely choose it. What you're saying makes sense too; I guess it's an area that there's no easy answers to.

I guess we'd have to ask them but I imagine there are many who do it because they enjoy it. There are equally many who feel they have no choice but to do it but you don't help them by keeping things underground. If they want help to get out of sex work provide the support for them to do that. Let the people who want to continue do so legitimately.

Under_Graduate

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Coercion, exploitation and so on. He's right in fairness. There are women sex workers on social media now who don't want any kind of interference in the way they do business and they're happy to be prostitutes or sex workers or whatever, and some people are now using this handful of women to bolster their case for prostitution to be legalised, while ignoring the fact that for every one of those women who are happy and quite successful in the sex industry, there are at least a thousand more women who aren't them, who are beaten, raped, abused and assaulted, living in squalor with not much hope of regulation doing anything for them... but it looks good on paper at least.

Man, what in Lords name are you talking about?

If you're talking about the global situation, including third world countries in your argument, then maybe you have a point.

Do you have ANY evidence, what. so. ever. that your bolded statement exists....IN IRELAND.

This is an IRISH law being past.

We're not including third world countries for the purposes of this discussion.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

The current system hasn't done much to help them. Why not try a different approach.

They are trying a different approach with the Swedish model. They have no other choice now because they're being told to do so by the EU which voted to implement the Swedish model in all member states.

It's not perfect, we don't have proper resources in place, we can't afford to put proper resources in place, so effectively, nothing will change, in Ireland at least. How it will operate in other countries with better resources than the Irish State is anyone's guess too.

Regulation hasn't worked in The Netherlands nor Germany and that's why they're eager to implement the Swedish model asap. We're probably likely to drag the Sexual Offences bill on for another two years as it's not really a priority nor a vote getter.

OUTOFSYNC

The new law will push the most vulnerable people working in prostitution underground where they will be more at risk. The ordinary 'johns' who use prostitutes will be scared away due to the risk of being criminalized leaving a higher proportion of the users being the lunatics, perverts etc.

Waltzraph

I would predict that we will see an increase in broken families if it is made illegal to purchase sex and severely punished.

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They are trying a different approach with the Swedish model. They have no other choice now because they're being told to do so by the EU which voted to implement the Swedish model in all member states.

It's not perfect, we don't have proper resources in place, we can't afford to put proper resources in place, so effectively, nothing will change, in Ireland at least. How it will operate in other countries with better resources than the Irish State is anyone's guess too.

Regulation hasn't worked in The Netherlands nor Germany and that's why they're eager to implement the Swedish model asap. We're probably likely to drag the Sexual Offences bill on for another two years as it's not really a priority nor a vote getter.

I agree you can't just legalise it and leave it at that. I would want a proper register of escorts, mandatory sexual health screening, they would have to have a licensed premises with proper security and so on. It would take years and it will never happen in a country like this with so many sexual hangups.

I don't know the answer. I don't believe you can ever protect everyone. I just think sex as a transaction is something that should be between the two people involved. If I want to pay a man or woman for their time doing something private in a safe environment then what has that got to do with anyone else?

Yurt2

Yep, the Government was led around the nose by a curious coalition of dogmatic religious groups and ideological feminists clinging to their axioms. I would say I'm astonished that they got so far pushing their foolish agenda, but no one is willing to seriously challenge them.

There's actually more compelling evidence that more foreign nationals are being kept in slave like conditions in Indian/South Asian restaurants in Ireland than in the sex industry where most work independently and advertise their services online . Should we ban Indian takeaways or make moves to ensure that people aren't being exploited? Or perhaps make illegal the purchase of curry takeout but not its sale. Yeah, that'll work.

Fleawuss

eviltwin wrote: »

I guess we'd have to ask them but I imagine there are many who do it because they enjoy it. There are equally many who feel they have no choice but to do it but you don't help them by keeping things underground. If they want help to get out of sex work provide the support for them to do that. Let the people who want to continue do so legitimately.

I'm uneasy about criminalizing adults and sex between adults (assuming consent) I have to admit; being gay and elderly I suppose my life experience has been coloured by being a criminal in the eyes of the Irish law for a good part of my life. We all want to protect people who need that; it's a complex area and Europe is maybe just moving onto the next initiative after so many.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

I agree you can't just legalise it and leave it at that. I would want a proper register of escorts, mandatory sexual health screening, they would have to have a licensed premises with proper security and so on. It would take years and it will never happen in a country like this with so many sexual hangups.

They tried all that in Germany and the Netherlands, and it just doesn't, and didn't work. It's nothing to so with sexual hangups at all (though perpetuating that myth is good for business if you're a prostitute). Seriously, we Irish are a bunch of kinky bastards every bit as kinky as our European counterparts.

I don't know the answer. I don't believe you can ever protect everyone. I just think sex as a transaction is something that should be between the two people involved. If I want to pay a man or woman for their time doing something private in a safe environment then what has that got to do with anyone else?

I don't think we can ever protect everyone either, and that's why honestly I hate that the Swedish model is perceived as the silver bullet solution among politicians when it is anything but!

Here's the thing though, the law will never be on the side of the person paying for sex, and there will never be any provisions made by the State for people seeking sex, so if you want to pay another person for their time, there's nothing illegal in that. What you do in that time is absolutely your own business.

But then you can't actually call for regulation because it would mean that you would lose that freedom to do what you want, with who you want, in your own time. You would effectively have to register as self-employed like they do in the UK, and then the only people making any real profit would be companies not even registered in Ireland, so they pay no tax in Ireland, who would act as a sort of middle-man between the sex worker and the State.

What does the State get out of it? Nothing. Yet the State is expected to fund the resources you mentioned above, but with what exactly?

Do you think I'm willing to pay my tax contributions to provide facilities where other people can get their rocks off in comfort? Why the hell should I care about them?

nokia69

Waltzraph wrote: »

I would predict that we will see an increase in broken families if it is made illegal to purchase sex and severely punished.

very true

but on the up side feminists get a law that makes sex offenders out men for having consensual sex with a woman, but the woman walks away scot-free

so much for equality

RedemptionZ

I actually know/am friends with someone who works as an escort in Dublin. Knew her from school days. I was surprised when I found out as she's not from a bad backround but she likes doing it, she has an apartment in town so is essentially working from home and doing f all hours for the money she's making. She has told me that by far the worst aspect of the job is the stigma surrounding it. Making it illegal essentially makes her unemployed. Surely the ones that are forced into it will still be forced into it underground, while the ones like my friend who were doing it by choice will no longer have it as an option.

newacc2015

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think we can ever protect everyone either, and that's why honestly I hate that the Swedish model is perceived as the silver bullet solution among politicians when it is anything but!

Here's the thing though, the law will never be on the side of the person paying for sex, and there will never be any provisions made by the State for people seeking sex, so if you want to pay another person for their time, there's nothing illegal in that. What you do in that time is absolutely your own business.

But then you can't actually call for regulation because it would mean that you would lose that freedom to do what you want, with who you want, in your own time. You would effectively have to register as self-employed like they do in the UK, and then the only people making any real profit would be companies not even registered in Ireland, so they pay no tax in Ireland, who would act as a sort of middle-man between the sex worker and the State.

What does the State get out of it? Nothing. Yet the State is expected to fund the resources you mentioned above, but with what exactly?

Do you think I'm willing to pay my tax contributions to provide facilities where other people can get their rocks off in comfort? Why the hell should I care about them?

Do you even read what you are writing? You are suggesting there will basically be multinational corporation involved in prostitute not paying tax here. What planet are you living on ?

nokia69

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But then you can't actually call for regulation because it would mean that you would lose that freedom to do what you want, with who you want, in your own time. You would effectively have to register as self-employed like they do in the UK, and then the only people making any real profit would be companies not even registered in Ireland, so they pay no tax in Ireland, who would act as a sort of middle-man between the sex worker and the State.

What does the State get out of it? Nothing. Yet the State is expected to fund the resources you mentioned above, but with what exactly?

Do you think I'm willing to pay my tax contributions to provide facilities where other people can get their rocks off in comfort? Why the hell should I care about them?

this just makes no sense

I assume in Germany the state collects tax from the industry which is more than enough to cover the regulation

eviltwin

That's how tax works Jack, you don't always have an interest in the areas your money goes to. I'd much rather see my taxes used to fund services for sex workers to make sure they are safe and clean than a lot of things it's currently spent on. And if income from prostitution is taxed then it helps find those services too.

We as a people may be open minded but as a state we are still not ready to do something like this. A large part of the holy Catholic Ireland mentality still remains. What political party is seriously going to tout this? We saw the fuss around same sex marriage, it would be worse in this case.

As I say I don't have the solution, I don't think there is one but I try and be fair. I don't think people who use prostitutes should be demonised. I don't think sex workers should be seen as criminals either.

Fleawuss

newacc2015 wrote: »

Do you even read what you are writing? You are suggesting there will basically be multinational corporation involved in prostitute not paying tax here. What planet are you living on ?

I don't think that's what's being suggested. Lots of Irish have worked in Britain and are familiar with being self employed. Where there's tax there avoidance and evasion. The route to achieving that might be debatable but there's no denying self employed people will look at it.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

That's how tax works Jack, you don't always have an interest in the areas your money goes to. I'd much rather see my taxes used to fund services for sex workers to make sure they are safe and clean than a lot of things it's currently spent on. And if income from prostitution is taxed then it helps find those services too.

I'd much rather see my taxes go into funding education programmes and initiatives for young people so that they have more choices than entering into prostitution, because it's not "the world's oldest profession" (engineering is) or any of that crap, it was far more popular in societies which are overwhelmingly religious, and that's why the Swedish model, coming from one of the most irreligious societies in Europe, has nothing to do with religion.

The State has a hard enough time collecting tax from people who are self-employed as it is, and prostitutes aren't known for being up-front about their business. They want the protection of the State, but they don't want interference from the State.

We as a people may be open minded but as a state we are still not ready to do something like this. A large part of the holy Catholic Ireland mentality still remains. What political party is seriously going to tout this? We saw the fuss around same sex marriage, it would be worse in this case.

In "Holy Catholic Ireland", Dublin had it's own red light district, long before Amsterdam. It's nothing to do with religion. It's simply that people really don't care for prostitution all that much. No mainstream political party in Ireland would put forward any ideas that could mean more Irish citizens being put at risk of assault and abuse and violence, living in fear every day of their lives! It'd be political suicide.

As I say I don't have the solution, I don't think there is one but I try and be fair. I don't think people who use prostitutes should be demonised. I don't think sex workers should be seen as criminals either.

I agree that I don't think sex workers should be criminalised. I don't particularly care about what happens to people who want to use people who describe themselves as sex workers though.

Yurt2

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd much rather see my taxes go into funding education programmes and initiatives for young people so that they have more choices than entering into prostitution, because it's not "the world's oldest profession" (engineering is) or any of that crap, it was far more popular in societies which are overwhelmingly religious, and that's why the Swedish model, coming from one of the most irreligious societies in Europe, has nothing to do with religion.

You realize for good many women that sex work is actually quite lucrative, far more lucrative for less hours than 'regular' professions. And with the advent of the internet they have more independence and autonomy. I'd be very surprised if even 1 or 2% of sex workers active in Ireland were being 'pimped' at this stage.

Anecdotal I know, but I lived in what might be called a 'desirable' postcode in Dublin a number of years back. The house two doors down from me (nice large 4 bedroomed detatched redbrick) was owned and paid for in cash by a 'lady of the night'. Now that's not every sex workers experience I'm sure, but this woman was no downtrodden victim of trafficking or exploitation. And good luck to her I say.

nokia69

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd much rather see my taxes go into funding education programmes and initiatives for young people so that they have more choices than entering into prostitution

they already have plenty of choices, but some will always go for the better money option

One eyed Jack wrote: »

because it's not "the world's oldest profession" (engineering is) or any of that crap, it was far more popular in societies which are overwhelmingly religious, and that's why the Swedish model, coming from one of the most irreligious societies in Europe, has nothing to do with religion.

in Sweden the law is 100% feminism, in Ireland its a strange mix of feminism and religion, its hard to think of a worse alliance

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In "Holy Catholic Ireland", Dublin had it's own red light district, long before Amsterdam. It's nothing to do with religion. It's simply that people really don't care for prostitution all that much.

exactly, always existed and always will

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No mainstream political party in Ireland would put forward any ideas that could mean more Irish citizens being put at risk of assault and abuse and violence, living in fear every day of their lives! It'd be political suicide.

I don't know what this means, the RLD in Amsterdam is pretty safe, its a tourist attraction and safer than many areas of Dublin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I agree that I don't think sex workers should be criminalised. I don't particularly care about what happens to people who want to use people who describe themselves as sex workers though.

so you support the law then, you try to come across as not being a feminist but in the end you always betray your true beliefs