Next Irish captain

wp_rathead

WarZ wrote: »

Jonathan Sexton is a proven winner and would make a fantastic captain. He is a good bloke (not one to go out looking for fights when out on the piss like a certain young contender being mentioned here), is well liked and respected, is actually world class and is guaranteed his place in the team for the considerable future.


I

Really necessary with that sort of hearsay?

lunarhog

I know O'Connell was a great captain but he did have his share of incidents. He messed up a lot of times with referees and knocked an Ulster second row out cold at a training session leading to a mass brawl while the victim had a seizure on the pitch.



never heard this before, who was the player knocked out?

jacothelad

lunarhog wrote: »

I know O'Connell was a great captain but he did have his share of incidents. He messed up a lot of times with referees and knocked an Ulster second row out cold at a training session leading to a mass brawl while the victim had a seizure on the pitch.



never heard this before, who was the player knocked out?

Caldwell - when he was 21 or 22. We always suspected he was brain dead. Maybe that is the reason. Actually Caldwell is an example of a highly talented young player who never fulfilled his promise. He needed a strong handed coach I think but he was a hugely athletic and skilful guy.

LorMal

Lets not be so conservative. How about looking to the future - Iain Henderson. (I think BOD was 22 or 23 when he was made captain). Great player - will lead from the front - very intelligent - a cool head.

vienne86

WarZ wrote: »

I know O'Connell was a great captain but he did have his share of incidents. He messed up a lot of times with referees and knocked an Ulster second row out cold at a training session leading to a mass brawl while the victim had a seizure on the pitch. No one is infallible but Sexton is the closest player on the Irish team to having a spotless record IMO.

Never heard even a whisper of this before.....just gossip?

I think Sexton would make a good captain too, but I don't think any of us really knows what goes on in the squad, so we really haven't much of a clue!

jacothelad

vienne86 wrote: »

Never heard even a whisper of this before.....just gossip?

I think Sexton would make a good captain too, but I don't think any of us really knows what goes on in the squad, so we really haven't much of a clue!

The incident in question with Caldwell is true and was his last ever involvement with Ireland which was a shame.

The Pheasant2

Can anybody give the story in some detail? Never heard about this!

Hagz

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Can anybody give the story in some detail? Never heard about this!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/paul-oconnell-you-want-to-produce-when-you-dont-its-frustrating-30013576.html

jm08

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Can anybody give the story in some detail? Never heard about this!

In his own words from interview with Paul Kimmage

PK: Allow me to quote you an example of what I mean by brutality. There was an incident during a training camp before the 2007 World Cup that Bernard Jackman described in his book. Ryan Caldwell had gone off-side in a ruck and you caught him with a punch. This is how Jackman remembers it: 'Paul O'Connell is a powerful man. He connected with Caldwell's jaw, and Caldwell's lights went out straight away. However, this was not your average KO. Caldy, immediately went into spasm. His eyes were rolling in his head. Blood started shooting from his mouth. His arms and legs started to shake violently. The docs and the physios were onto the pitch like lightning. They managed to prise Caldy's mouth open, fearing that he might swallow his tongue or his gumshield. He was in a bad way.
POC: Yeah, look, I threw a punch in training – I've thrown a few of them over the course of my career and had plenty thrown at me – and unfortunately, whatever way I caught Ryan did a bit of damage. It was a really bad day in my career, one that I'll never forget.
PK: Yes, I was curious about that. What was that like watching the effects of what you had done?
POC: It was horrible experience and a big wake-up for me. You mentioned magnificent highs and excruciating lows and for me, that was a real excruciating low. I spoke to him two hours after it happened and he was like 'Don't worry about it,' but it gave me a lot of perspective. I haven't thrown a punch at training since.
PK: Really?
POC: Yeah, it was one of those moments when you realise with all the weights and stuff we do the damage we can actually do.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/paul-oconnell-you-want-to-produce-when-you-dont-its-frustrating-30013576.html

LorMal

Christ, that's a horrific story. He sounds contrite. Still, didn't stop him nearly decapitating Dave Kearney. Not an admirable part of his personality.

jm08

LorMal wrote: »

Christ, that's a horrific story. He sounds contrite. Still, didn't stop him nearly decapitating Dave Kearney. Not an admirable part of his personality.

If you read what he said, he did learn from his mistakes and hasn't hit anyone in training since.

He addresses the Dave Kearney incident here. It wasn't deliberate.

PK: What about the Dave Kearney incident?
(Last April, during Munster's Pro12 clash with Leinster, O'Connell was scrambling to clear a ball with his boot when he caught Kearney in the head and left him concussed.)


POC: Look, I probably misjudged it and assumed that everyone, without a shadow of a doubt, would assume it was 100 per cent accidental.


PK: There was a lot of niggle in that game.


POC: You are not going to play your closest rivals and not have a bit of niggle but that incident wasn't niggle.


PK: Did you watch it afterwards?


POC: Yeah, and it looked worse than I'd remembered it. I knew straight away that I'd caught him but I didn't realise I'd knocked him out. He was out (of action) for a while. I kept looking for his name on the Leinster teamsheet but it didn't crop up for weeks, which was obviously very frustrating for him.


PK: Joe Schmidt felt you should have been cited.


POC: Yeah, and I had close friends who felt I should have been cited as well, or that it should have been looked at, and I respect their opinion. But my point of view is this: the argument is that a punishment would stop you doing it again but how does a punishment stop you from doing something that was 100 per cent accidental?

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

POC: Look, I probably misjudged it and assumed that everyone, without a shadow of a doubt, would assume it was 100 per cent accidental.

Breaking news: Guilty man says he is innocent.

Not even sure why you're defending it tbh (actually, that's a lie - I know why you're defending it), he got away free because there was a Euro game on the horizon.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

POC: Yeah, and I had close friends who felt I should have been cited as well, or that it should have been looked at, and I respect their opinion. But my point of view is this: the argument is that a punishment would stop you doing it again but how does a punishment stop you from doing something that was 100 per cent accidental?

Always thought that was accidental. Locks should never attempt to kick the ball. It almost always ends in disaster.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Breaking news: Guilty man says he is innocent.

Not even sure why you're defending it tbh (actually, that's a lie - I know why you're defending it), he got away free because there was a Euro game on the horizon.

You seriously think that Paul O'Connell deliberately kicked Dave Kearney in the head?

Bridge93

jm08 wrote: »

You seriously think that Paul O'Connell deliberately kicked Dave Kearney in the head?

He obviously did it to try knock (literally) the competition out to get Zebo in the Irish team. Alas it did not work and Joe once Irish coach, aware of this dastardly scheme, made sure Dave Kearney always started for Ireland ahead of Zebo.

This may not be true

captbarnacles

Read it all. Very interesting interview. Part about the punch was sickening

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

You seriously think that Paul O'Connell deliberately kicked Dave Kearney in the head?

A little from column A, a little from column B. He certainly wasn't innocent.

Hagz

Of course he didn't mean to kick him in the head.

Th0mas Shelby

I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading through this thread and some of the comments are absolutely nonsensical.

1. The posts about Heaslip's fathers job. Absolutely absurd. Cannot fathom why that would be brought up in conversation. There is more than enough from Heaslip's career to point to to support an argument for International Captaincy without resorting to what his fathers occupation is

2. The digs being taken at Paul O'Connell. I cannot understand the mindset of people to arrive in and drag up irrelevant stuff about arguably Ireland's greatest ever leader and player. As far as I can see this thread is entitled "Next Ireland Captain". Dragging up nonsense like this does not advance the conversation.

duskyjoe

dubal wrote: »

I though Heaslip was the obvious choice

Soft as sand IMO as a Capt. Great player etc but doesn't hold that special mantle like Paulie et al that people look up to. Just my 2c folks.....

1eg0a3xv7b82of

schmidt picked heaslip so he must trust in heaslips leadership.

Take this scenario-

If POC, SOM, POM, Payne and Sexton has been available for the Argie game BUT Murray, Heaslip, Best, Henshaw and Ross had not, do posters here think we would have than beaten Argentina.
Result would have been the same, no international rugby team can lose 1/3 of their first 15 and not struggle over 80 minutes in a WC QF.

The 2 pluses for Heaslip and Best, they are never really injured and they are 2 of our better players, so either would be a good choice as captain.

former total

Th0mas Shelby wrote: »

2. The digs being taken at Paul O'Connell. I cannot understand the mindset of people to arrive in and drag up irrelevant stuff about arguably Ireland's greatest ever leader and player. As far as I can see this thread is entitled "Next Ireland Captain". Dragging up nonsense like this does not advance the conversation.

It is relevant.

Like, if we went back in time a few years and were debating who should take over from O'Driscoll, POC's name would be top of most lists, right? But if we'd known about this Caldwell incident at the time, it would be absolutely legitimate to say, "hang on, this guy almost killed a teammate for going offside at a ruck in a training match, is he really captain material?" Add in the Dave Kearney incident, the Jonathan Thomas incident, Cudmore etc, and you could easily make a case that this guy has a screw loose and is not fit to be captain. Except we know he's a great captain.

So likewise, the spurious criticisms being thrown about here about the various candidates (well, Heaslip) don't matter a damn, none of us really know what makes a great captain and who the best candidate is. The POC stories just highlight that even more.

LorMal

Th0mas Shelby wrote: »

I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading through this thread and some of the comments are absolutely nonsensical.

1. The posts about Heaslip's fathers job. Absolutely absurd. Cannot fathom why that would be brought up in conversation. There is more than enough from Heaslip's career to point to to support an argument for International Captaincy without resorting to what his fathers occupation is

2. The digs being taken at Paul O'Connell. I cannot understand the mindset of people to arrive in and drag up irrelevant stuff about arguably Ireland's greatest ever leader and player. As far as I can see this thread is entitled "Next Ireland Captain". Dragging up nonsense like this does not advance the conversation.

Did you read about the punch? You may not like it, but it's not nonsense - it happened. As POC is our retiring captain, it's relevant to the discussion, if a bit transgental.
As I posted earlier, I would like to see us starting a new cycle with a fresh approach to the captaincy. To my mind, Iain Henderson would make an excellent captain.

aimee1

duskyjoe wrote: »

Soft as sand IMO as a Capt. Great player etc but doesn't hold that special mantle like Paulie et al that people look up to. Just my 2c folks.....

not many people in world rugby will match up to POC as a leader/captain

People expecting Heaslip or anyone else in the irish squad to do likewise are foolish IMO

shootermacg

Why do these threads always end up in the gutter?

shootermacg

shootermacg wrote: »

Why do these threads always end up in the gutter?

You could tell from the second it was posted that was the way it was going.

If anyone wants to know what this thread is about:

1. Heaslip is soft and isn't a captain. No proof or insight needed, opinion based prejudice is more than enough.

2. O'Connell is the de facto model for a captain, bar when he lost his temper that 7 times.

3. Everyone seems happy with Best.

jacothelad

Th0mas Shelby wrote: »

I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading through this thread and some of the comments are absolutely nonsensical.

1. The posts about Heaslip's fathers job. Absolutely absurd. Cannot fathom why that would be brought up in conversation. There is more than enough from Heaslip's career to point to to support an argument for International Captaincy without resorting to what his fathers occupation is

2. The digs being taken at Paul O'Connell. I cannot understand the mindset of people to arrive in and drag up irrelevant stuff about arguably Ireland's greatest ever leader and player. As far as I can see this thread is entitled "Next Ireland Captain". Dragging up nonsense like this does not advance the conversation.

Really? Better player than BOD? Gibson? Kyle? Better captain than McBride? Certainly one of the best but sweeping statements such as yours are not really adding to the argument. POC as a player had many great attributes and as a leader very few could compare. If you has said 'in the professional era,' it might be more supportable. However, being all those things doesn't mean that contributors here shouldn't air their legitimate views on what makes a good captain and what might detract from the narrative. Also, repeating facts about a player's attitude and some of those actions of his isn't the same as 'Dragging up nonsense.'

captbarnacles

Deleted User wrote: »

You could tell from the second it was posted that was the way it was going.

If anyone wants to know what this thread is about:

1. Heaslip is soft and isn't a captain. No proof or insight needed, opinion based prejudice is more than enough.

2. O'Connell is the de facto model for a captain, bar when he lost his temper that 7 times.

3. Everyone seems happy with Best.

Thought I remembered some Ulster posters saying he didn't manage refs well.

Neil3030

shootermacg wrote: »

Why do these threads always end up in the gutter?

Commenting on personal issues of people we don't know, and how they'd do a job we don't know how is done well, in a context none of us are familiar with.

How could it NOT end up in the gutter? :pac:

.ak

Well shame on me for expecting more from the rest of you...

The usual personal attack and nonsense is rife here.