Next Irish captain

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

You are not going to get it then if vague terms are used. A better way of putting is like from one of the warm-up games I think where Paul O'Connell came off the bench and you could see everyone around him lifting their game, more intensity, getting up from tackles quicker etc. etc. POC brought that intensity to the game when he came on. There was absolutely no intensity in the Ireland v Argentina game. I think Schmidt said that in preparation for a game, the coaching staff tend to leave the team alone from around the captains run to let the players prepare themselves. Well, that team was very badly prepared and were blown away in the first 20 minutes. Heaslip did his best, but he didn't rally the troops and up the intensity. Thats what a good captain would do.

If he gets the blame for Argentina surely he gets the credit for doing exactly what you suggest in the France game by rallying the troops and taking us from a seemingly terrible situation and leading us to a convincing victory

Crimsonforce

Doesn't stander officially qualify for Ireland today? Remember it was world cup final reading somewhere..

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

If he gets the blame for Argentina surely he gets the credit for doing exactly what you suggest in the France game by rallying the troops and taking us from a seemingly terrible situation and leading us to a convincing victory

POC would have done the prep work for the game. He would have made sure that everyone's head was in the right place. There were some things I didn't like in the lead up to the Argentinian game - too much talk about how irreplacable Sexton was really wouldn't have helped Madigan in his preparation.

In the game itself, first of all its was a phased loss of the key players. Sexton at 25 mins in, POC 40, POM 55 and of course Sean O'Brien was available for the full match (and he had a terrific match), as did POM.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

POC would have done the prep work for the game. He would have made sure that everyone's head was in the right place. There were some things I didn't like in the lead up to the Argentinian game - too much talk about how irreplacable Sexton was really wouldn't have helped Madigan in his preparation.

In the game itself, first of all its was a phased loss of the key players. Sexton at 25 mins in, POC 40, POM 55 and of course Sean O'Brien was available for the full match (and he had a terrific match), as did POM.

We played a lot better without POC than with him, if you're going to put the blame on Heaslip for Argentina I honestly dont know how you can refuse to give him any credit for France

Ectoplasm

Tox56 wrote: »

If he gets the blame for Argentina surely he gets the credit for doing exactly what you suggest in the France game by rallying the troops and taking us from a seemingly terrible situation and leading us to a convincing victory

I was going to sarcastically suggest that you were being silly, that O'Connell would get the credit for that but someone beat me to it...only seriously.

Some people just don't like Heaslip so will talk him down as captain no matter what. Personally I agree with whoever said that unless you're on the team or in the squad you can't possibly say whether someone is a good or bad captain.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

We played a lot better without POC than with him, if you're going to put the blame on Heaslip for Argentina I honestly dont know how you can refuse to give him any credit for France

Thats a matter of opinion, but POC would have been responsible for the prep for the French game.

And I'm not blaming Heaslip for the loss to Argentina. Heaslip wasn't responsible for all the talk about how irreplacable Sexton was. SOB getting himself banned didn't help him either. I think Schmidt made selection and tactic errors as well.

padser

jm08 wrote: »

Thats a matter of opinion, but POC would have been responsible for the prep for the French game.

And I'm not blaming Heaslip for the loss to Argentina. Heaslip wasn't responsible for all the talk about how irreplacable Sexton was. SOB getting himself banned didn't help him either. I think Schmidt made selection and tactic errors as well.

I think you are being unreasonably charitable towards Heaslip.

Deep down, we all know the Argintina loss should be laid at Jamie's door. We didn't see it on TV, but I'm pretty sure he turned up at the coin toss barefooted with green headphones in his ears and wearing nothing but a pink thong. The Argentinians took one look at him and said "these guys just are not up for it".

At half time instead of engaging in a team talk about how we could play better, he went around giving invites to every member of the playing squad to visit his new restaurant.

And I couldn't help but note that he made not one single 60 yard run, beating 7 defenders along the way throughout the whole game.

It's a disgrace that people are shilling him for future captain. He shouldn't be let in the stadium as a spectator for future Ireland games never mind allowed onto the pitch!

Flipper22

jm08 wrote: »

Thats a matter of opinion, but POC would have been responsible for the prep for the French game.

And I'm not blaming Heaslip for the loss to Argentina. Heaslip wasn't responsible for all the talk about how irreplacable Sexton was. SOB getting himself banned didn't help him either. I think Schmidt made selection and tactic errors as well.

This stuff is just incredibly selective stuff to suit the opinion you want to have.

jm08

Flipper22 wrote: »

This stuff is just incredibly selective stuff to suit the opinion you want to have.

Look, I have an opinion, there is no 'wanting to have one'.

Guy:Incognito

Crimsonforce wrote: »

Doesn't stander officially qualify for Ireland today? Remember it was world cup final reading somewhere..

So we could have called him up as an injury replacement if we'd made the final

bilston

Has Stander said he wants to play for Ireland? I'm assuming he does but has it been confirmed?

duckysauce

bilston wrote: »

Has Stander said he wants to play for Ireland? I'm assuming he does but has it been confirmed?

yep

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/cj-stander-if-i-get-the-chance-to-play-for-ireland-ill-sing-anthem-with-all-my-heart-30712384.html


he was unreal last night

kuang1

I for one wouldn't be too happy with Heaslip as captain. When he was captain for a time before I remember being uneasy about it then too.

And my only reason is that he hasn't got that 'steeliness' to his persona.

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that what they were talking about was serious sh1t. And you'd better fukkin listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that.

Is it plain old charisma maybe? Steeliness I call it but maybe charisma is more accurate.
For all of Jamie's attributes (and we all know there are many), I just didn't feel inspired with him wearing the captain's armband in the past, and wouldn't now either.

That said...there's no hugely obvious alternative. But Best would get my vote.

jacothelad

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Rory Best for me.
- Never has a bad game
- Incredibly brave and tough, once holding his arm in place knowing it was broken and diving into a ruck against New Zealand
- Never gets hot headed and a good talker

Heaslip is a good option but against Argentina where were the gather everyone and get people settled moments?
It was widely reported no one gathering up and talking.
He was one of few to play well, but that was one of his duties.
We haven't had an Ulster captain since Paddy Johns, is that correct?

Simon Best....sort of.

rrpc

kuang1 wrote: »

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that what they were talking about was serious sh1t. And you'd better fukkin listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that.

Hmmm...


You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

davegrohl48

rrpc wrote: »

Hmmm...


You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

In fairness that has nothing to do with it.

rrpc

davegrohl48 wrote: »

In fairness that has nothing to do with it.

It's as relevant as what you said. People used to say the same things about BOD when he was made captain.

KingBrian2

We have had a Leinster and Munster Capt time for Ulster to have the Captaincy. Connacht's time will come if their good enough but Ulster has a great ruby tradition, chose a player from that team.

kuang1

rrpc wrote: »

Hmmm...


You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

Odd point to make...you're implying every son is a replica of his dad?!!!

What I'm saying is that a great captian has 'it', that intangible aura that exudes by them just being conscious.

Presence.

Heaslip is a titanium workhorse. His record speaks for itself.

Unfortunately this, nor who/what his dad is, means he has what I am attempting to describe.

captbarnacles

kuang1 wrote: »

I for one wouldn't be too happy with Heaslip as captain. When he was captain for a time before I remember being uneasy about it then too.

And my only reason is that he hasn't got that 'steeliness' to his persona.

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that what they were talking about was serious sh1t. And you'd better fukkin listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that.

Is it plain old charisma maybe? Steeliness I call it but maybe charisma is more accurate.
For all of Jamie's attributes (and we all know there are many), I just didn't feel inspired with him wearing the captain's armband in the past, and wouldn't now either.

That said...there's no hugely obvious alternative. But Best would get my vote.

Outside of the squad does it really matter who he inspires?

shootermacg

Best is great choice, he really deserves the job, he gives 110% in every game but he already has a lot of pressure to deal with, line-outs, scrums and being a seven round the pitch. I'd not like to add to his workload, so I'd make him vice captain.

I know it will never happen, but CJ for me, Munster gets an enormous lift when he steps on the pitch, and, he really does make stuff happen. He's really upbeat, gets on well with the ref and never takes a backwards step. He can also play anywhere in the back row, which is a major plus.

JH is a great player, but his personality is too [laid back / spacer / flower powerish] to ever captain a team effectively, his interviews are really cringe inducing and he's way too civilized to give the PoC / PoM halftime team-talk.

I prefer my captains to have a bit of the dog in them!

rrpc

kuang1 wrote: »

Odd point to make...you're implying every son is a replica of his dad?!!!

No. I did not say that. Do you think children learn nothing from their parents?

kuang1

captbarnacles wrote: »

Outside of the squad does it really matter who he inspires?

Absolutely not. But let me ask; was there any doubt about POC's or BOD's ability to rally the troops?
All I'm saying is that I for one would worry about Heaslip's ability to motivate a guy having an off day the way his predecessors did.

Me being worried about it doesn't mean he can't inspire anyone! Just my opinion based on what I've seen and heard from him over the years.

captbarnacles

Fair enough, personally I'd prefer to play with a captain of POC type more than maybe less vocal captains like JH but I know guys who say exactly the opposite.

rrpc

The coaches make these decisions. I would generally defer to their opinion over a random fan sitting in the stands or on their sofa.

Tim Robbins

I wouldn't give it to Toner as he'll be constantly accused of talking down to everyone. Not just refs.

Pink Fairy

rrpc wrote: »

The coaches make these decisions. I would generally defer to their opinion over a random fan sitting in the stands or on their sofa.

Makes your own random opinion irrelevant too

davegrohl48

rrpc wrote: »

It's as relevant as what you said. People used to say the same things about BOD when he was made captain.

I dont recall ODriscolls Dad's occupation being mentioned.
Rory Best is fairly obvious captain material as well as Heaslip. Fathers occupation nothing to do with it or we're being ridiculous.

kuang1

rrpc wrote: »

No. I did not say that. Do you think children learn nothing from their parents?

No you said:

rrpc wrote: »

You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

And my answer to that is: I don't know. Because I can't know. You don't know because you can't know either.

Do I think children learn nothing from their parents?
No I don't think that. But how much is learned? You have a method by which we could measure that?

Your points are not necessarily irrelevant, but a bit conveniently hazy.

But seriously, do you consider Heaslip sufficiently inspirational?

rrpc

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Makes your own random opinion irrelevant too

I haven't offered an opinion on who should be captain. I've questioned other peoples' 'judgment' on the matter.