Next Irish captain

gally74 · 30-10-2015 5:59pm #1

I was surprised heaslip got the captaincy going into the puma game for me Rory best deserves it and seems to have the respect of the players.

Is it now open? What do people think?

thebaz · 30-10-2015 6:07pm

when fit POM for me , Sexton would have been my first choice , but understand the pressure of been a goal kicking 10 is probably eneogh

dubal · 30-10-2015 6:08pm

I though Heaslip was the obvious choice

gally74 · 30-10-2015 6:10pm

thebaz wrote: »

when fit POM for me , Sexton would have been my first choice , but understand the pressure of been a goal kicking 10 is probably eneogh

Pom is class , but not as cool as he could be when talking to refs

wp_rathead · 30-10-2015 6:43pm

Isa Nacewa is Leinster captain so that'd make me think that Jamie Heaslip will be given Ireland captaincy

Pink Fairy · 30-10-2015 6:43pm

CJ Stander

Ceadog · 30-10-2015 6:45pm

Right, the options are:

Heaslip - Obvious choice. One of the most successful club captains in history and has captained Ireland before.
Sexton - Possibly our best player, but has a temper, and history shows outhalves make poor captains.
O'Mahony - Munster captain, still young. Is unfortunately injured and may miss the 6N. One of the future.
Best - Ulster captain and highly experienced. In the form of his life and one of the first names on the teamsheet.
Murray - Integral cog in our game but hasn't shown much leadership.
Henshaw - Showed excellent leadership in the France game but probably needs more experience before leading.
R. Kearney - Good leader, poor form. Probably too far from the game at fullback too.

So, realistically, for this season, it's going to be either Heaslip or Best. O'Mahony has a shout if he comes back from injury early.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-10-2015 6:46pm

wp_rathead wrote:

Isa Nacewa is Leinster captain so that'd make me think that Jamie Heaslip will be given Ireland captaincy

Not necessarily. Nacewa is not only a class, senior player, he'll also be there throughout the 6 nations which gives continuity.

its_phil · 30-10-2015 7:13pm

gally74 wrote: »

I was surprised heaslip got the captaincy going into the puma game for me Rory best deserves it and seems to have the respect of the players.

Is it now open? What do people think?

As opposed to Heaslip who does not have respect?

30-10-2015 7:38pm

I always think this debate is fruitless. Unless your very close to the team, you have no idea who will make a good captain.

CatFromHue · 30-10-2015 8:02pm

Fine, I'll do it

locum-motion · 30-10-2015 8:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I always think this debate is fruitless. Unless your very close to the team, you have no idea who will make a good captain.

Unless my very close to the team what?

30-10-2015 8:54pm

locum-motion wrote: »

Unless my very close to the team what?

...then you have no idea who will be a good captain.

Edit: Ugh just spotted UR being a grammar nazi

locum-motion · 30-10-2015 9:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

...then you have no idea who will be a good captain.

Edit: Ugh just spotted UR being a grammar nazi

Godwin's Law: you lose!

PTH2009 · 31-10-2015 3:02am

sean o brien

efb · 31-10-2015 3:20am

Peter O'Mahony

MadYaker · 31-10-2015 3:24am

Only people who know what goes on in the dressing room and are close to the players could know this, but based on what we've seen, Heaslip.

efb · 31-10-2015 3:53am

Heaslip's leadership against Argentina left a lot to be desired.

CatFromHue · 31-10-2015 4:43am

It's a bit of an interesting question as all the best teams tend to have multiple Captains options

Nz 11: McCaw, Read, Weepu
SA 07: Smit, Du Preez, Matfield
Eng 03: half the bloody team

So maybe it puts a bit of perspective on our squad.

kUDiW · 31-10-2015 5:12am

I'm not convinced Best is the best option. Rather he focused on his own game, without the added pressure of captaincy.
I think it needs to be one of the forwards or scrum half, as a key part of the role is the ongoing dialogue with the ref.
Richie the master here. So I'd go with PoM as I think Heaslip too passive.
If PoM out of action still at the 6N, I wonder if Henry might be an outside bet .

bilston · 31-10-2015 9:33am

Heaslip will captain during the 6Ns and I'd wager POM will take over, either next season, or if things go well in the 6Ns, then in the near future.

Ruddock could be an option down the line as well but he needs to get into the team first.

For me thiugh I wouldn't give it to Sexton, he has enough on his plate, plus he seems like he may be a bit too edgy for it, but that is hard to judge if you aren't in the team environment I suppose.

Pink Fairy · 31-10-2015 9:43am

I suppose we could go the route of the Ryder Cup and have a non playing captain, that's the only way Ruddock gets the job

stephen_n · 31-10-2015 10:25am

Heaslip is vice Captain, has taken over the roll whenever POC has been absent and is one of the most experienced players in the squad. Add to that his amazing injury profile and how few matches he misses, it's really hard to see beyond him. POM may well take over in a few years, but for now it will be Heaslip.

bilston · 31-10-2015 10:31am

Pink Fairy wrote: »

I suppose we could go the route of the Ryder Cup and have a non playing captain, that's the only way Ruddock gets the job

Well that's why I said he needs to get into the team first.

Who do you think will be playing BS in the 6Ns? Ruddock? Henderson? Stander? Murphy?

jacothelad · 31-10-2015 11:32am

The captain is there to make cool headed decisions - such as do we go for a l/o or kick a penalty attempt. He also has to be indispensible to the team. We don't need an eye bulging, raving loonbeg as captain. They have their place on the field but we do not need a hot headed twat to get up the noses of refs. The captain should be someone that the players would follow into the gates of Hell without thinking. Heaslip has the fire in him but under control. Yes, I'm pretty sure Heaslip is such a player. I also think Sexton is pretty much in the same mould. To be honest I can't see beyond these two. Most of the others who are sure fire starters such as SOB don't seem to be leaders other than by example and one or two of this 'inner circle' should be under pressure for their places in the starting 15. None of the backs outside Sexton seem to be 'captain' material. They may be good players but they lack that something that captains seem to exude....... Authority. Something which can't be coached. Being a balls to the wall, snarly faced, aggressive player is simply not enough.

rrpc · 31-10-2015 11:36am

efb wrote: »

Heaslip's leadership against Argentina left a lot to be desired.

I find that bit odd tbh. We didn't play well = captain's fault. We played well = coach is great.

Ergo captain can't win*

*Except if you're Paul O'Connell obviously since he didn't cop any flak for the poor performance against Italy.

davegrohl48 · 31-10-2015 2:38pm

Rory Best for me.
- Never has a bad game
- Incredibly brave and tough, once holding his arm in place knowing it was broken and diving into a ruck against New Zealand
- Never gets hot headed and a good talker

Heaslip is a good option but against Argentina where were the gather everyone and get people settled moments?
It was widely reported no one gathering up and talking.
He was one of few to play well, but that was one of his duties.
We haven't had an Ulster captain since Paddy Johns, is that correct?

Flipper22 · 31-10-2015 2:46pm

I'd be shocked if it's not Heaslip.

Ceadog · 31-10-2015 3:24pm

bilston wrote: »

Who do you think will be playing BS in the 6Ns? Ruddock? Henderson? Stander? Murphy?

Ruddock, with one of Henry/Stander/Murphy on the bench, with them moving into the starting lineup in that order according to injuries. Henderson is going to be a SR for Ireland now, no question.

Teferi · 31-10-2015 4:56pm

Can people give me exact details of how Heaslip did not perform well as captain against Argentina? Firm details, time stamps if you have them. These vague terms - "they looked rudderless" etc. simply are no use.

jm08 · 31-10-2015 5:23pm

Teferi wrote: »

Can people give me exact details of how Heaslip did not perform well as captain against Argentina? Firm details, time stamps if you have them. These vague terms - "they looked rudderless" etc. simply are no use.

You are not going to get it then if vague terms are used. A better way of putting is like from one of the warm-up games I think where Paul O'Connell came off the bench and you could see everyone around him lifting their game, more intensity, getting up from tackles quicker etc. etc. POC brought that intensity to the game when he came on. There was absolutely no intensity in the Ireland v Argentina game. I think Schmidt said that in preparation for a game, the coaching staff tend to leave the team alone from around the captains run to let the players prepare themselves. Well, that team was very badly prepared and were blown away in the first 20 minutes. Heaslip did his best, but he didn't rally the troops and up the intensity. Thats what a good captain would do.

Tox56 · 31-10-2015 5:42pm

jm08 wrote: »

You are not going to get it then if vague terms are used. A better way of putting is like from one of the warm-up games I think where Paul O'Connell came off the bench and you could see everyone around him lifting their game, more intensity, getting up from tackles quicker etc. etc. POC brought that intensity to the game when he came on. There was absolutely no intensity in the Ireland v Argentina game. I think Schmidt said that in preparation for a game, the coaching staff tend to leave the team alone from around the captains run to let the players prepare themselves. Well, that team was very badly prepared and were blown away in the first 20 minutes. Heaslip did his best, but he didn't rally the troops and up the intensity. Thats what a good captain would do.

If he gets the blame for Argentina surely he gets the credit for doing exactly what you suggest in the France game by rallying the troops and taking us from a seemingly terrible situation and leading us to a convincing victory

Crimsonforce · 31-10-2015 5:42pm

Doesn't stander officially qualify for Ireland today? Remember it was world cup final reading somewhere..

jm08 · 31-10-2015 6:19pm

Tox56 wrote: »

If he gets the blame for Argentina surely he gets the credit for doing exactly what you suggest in the France game by rallying the troops and taking us from a seemingly terrible situation and leading us to a convincing victory

POC would have done the prep work for the game. He would have made sure that everyone's head was in the right place. There were some things I didn't like in the lead up to the Argentinian game - too much talk about how irreplacable Sexton was really wouldn't have helped Madigan in his preparation.

In the game itself, first of all its was a phased loss of the key players. Sexton at 25 mins in, POC 40, POM 55 and of course Sean O'Brien was available for the full match (and he had a terrific match), as did POM.

Tox56 · 31-10-2015 6:25pm

jm08 wrote: »

POC would have done the prep work for the game. He would have made sure that everyone's head was in the right place. There were some things I didn't like in the lead up to the Argentinian game - too much talk about how irreplacable Sexton was really wouldn't have helped Madigan in his preparation.

In the game itself, first of all its was a phased loss of the key players. Sexton at 25 mins in, POC 40, POM 55 and of course Sean O'Brien was available for the full match (and he had a terrific match), as did POM.

We played a lot better without POC than with him, if you're going to put the blame on Heaslip for Argentina I honestly dont know how you can refuse to give him any credit for France

Ectoplasm · 31-10-2015 6:26pm

Tox56 wrote: »

If he gets the blame for Argentina surely he gets the credit for doing exactly what you suggest in the France game by rallying the troops and taking us from a seemingly terrible situation and leading us to a convincing victory

I was going to sarcastically suggest that you were being silly, that O'Connell would get the credit for that but someone beat me to it...only seriously.

Some people just don't like Heaslip so will talk him down as captain no matter what. Personally I agree with whoever said that unless you're on the team or in the squad you can't possibly say whether someone is a good or bad captain.

jm08 · 31-10-2015 6:43pm

Tox56 wrote: »

We played a lot better without POC than with him, if you're going to put the blame on Heaslip for Argentina I honestly dont know how you can refuse to give him any credit for France

Thats a matter of opinion, but POC would have been responsible for the prep for the French game.

And I'm not blaming Heaslip for the loss to Argentina. Heaslip wasn't responsible for all the talk about how irreplacable Sexton was. SOB getting himself banned didn't help him either. I think Schmidt made selection and tactic errors as well.

padser · 31-10-2015 7:39pm

jm08 wrote: »

Thats a matter of opinion, but POC would have been responsible for the prep for the French game.

And I'm not blaming Heaslip for the loss to Argentina. Heaslip wasn't responsible for all the talk about how irreplacable Sexton was. SOB getting himself banned didn't help him either. I think Schmidt made selection and tactic errors as well.

I think you are being unreasonably charitable towards Heaslip.

Deep down, we all know the Argintina loss should be laid at Jamie's door. We didn't see it on TV, but I'm pretty sure he turned up at the coin toss barefooted with green headphones in his ears and wearing nothing but a pink thong. The Argentinians took one look at him and said "these guys just are not up for it".

At half time instead of engaging in a team talk about how we could play better, he went around giving invites to every member of the playing squad to visit his new restaurant.

And I couldn't help but note that he made not one single 60 yard run, beating 7 defenders along the way throughout the whole game.

It's a disgrace that people are shilling him for future captain. He shouldn't be let in the stadium as a spectator for future Ireland games never mind allowed onto the pitch!

Flipper22 · 31-10-2015 7:44pm

jm08 wrote: »

Thats a matter of opinion, but POC would have been responsible for the prep for the French game.

And I'm not blaming Heaslip for the loss to Argentina. Heaslip wasn't responsible for all the talk about how irreplacable Sexton was. SOB getting himself banned didn't help him either. I think Schmidt made selection and tactic errors as well.

This stuff is just incredibly selective stuff to suit the opinion you want to have.

jm08 · 31-10-2015 8:01pm

Flipper22 wrote: »

This stuff is just incredibly selective stuff to suit the opinion you want to have.

Look, I have an opinion, there is no 'wanting to have one'.

Guy:Incognito · 31-10-2015 10:33pm

Crimsonforce wrote: »

Doesn't stander officially qualify for Ireland today? Remember it was world cup final reading somewhere..

So we could have called him up as an injury replacement if we'd made the final

bilston · 31-10-2015 10:57pm

Has Stander said he wants to play for Ireland? I'm assuming he does but has it been confirmed?

duckysauce · 31-10-2015 11:16pm

bilston wrote: »

Has Stander said he wants to play for Ireland? I'm assuming he does but has it been confirmed?

yep

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/cj-stander-if-i-get-the-chance-to-play-for-ireland-ill-sing-anthem-with-all-my-heart-30712384.html

he was unreal last night

kuang1 · 01-11-2015 7:53pm

I for one wouldn't be too happy with Heaslip as captain. When he was captain for a time before I remember being uneasy about it then too.

And my only reason is that he hasn't got that 'steeliness' to his persona.

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that what they were talking about was serious sh1t. And you'd better fukkin listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that.

Is it plain old charisma maybe? Steeliness I call it but maybe charisma is more accurate.
For all of Jamie's attributes (and we all know there are many), I just didn't feel inspired with him wearing the captain's armband in the past, and wouldn't now either.

That said...there's no hugely obvious alternative. But Best would get my vote.

jacothelad · 01-11-2015 8:03pm

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Rory Best for me.
- Never has a bad game
- Incredibly brave and tough, once holding his arm in place knowing it was broken and diving into a ruck against New Zealand
- Never gets hot headed and a good talker

Heaslip is a good option but against Argentina where were the gather everyone and get people settled moments?
It was widely reported no one gathering up and talking.
He was one of few to play well, but that was one of his duties.
We haven't had an Ulster captain since Paddy Johns, is that correct?

Simon Best....sort of.

rrpc · 01-11-2015 8:18pm

kuang1 wrote: »

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that what they were talking about was serious sh1t. And you'd better fukkin listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that.

Hmmm...

You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

davegrohl48 · 01-11-2015 8:21pm

rrpc wrote: »

Hmmm...

You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

In fairness that has nothing to do with it.

rrpc · 01-11-2015 8:26pm

davegrohl48 wrote: »

In fairness that has nothing to do with it.

It's as relevant as what you said. People used to say the same things about BOD when he was made captain.

KingBrian2 · 01-11-2015 8:30pm

We have had a Leinster and Munster Capt time for Ulster to have the Captaincy. Connacht's time will come if their good enough but Ulster has a great ruby tradition, chose a player from that team.

kuang1 · 01-11-2015 8:39pm

rrpc wrote: »

Hmmm...

You think a guy who's father founded and commanded the army ranger wing doesn't know what it takes to be a leader?

Odd point to make...you're implying every son is a replica of his dad?!!!

What I'm saying is that a great captian has 'it', that intangible aura that exudes by them just being conscious.

Presence.

Heaslip is a titanium workhorse. His record speaks for itself.

Unfortunately this, nor who/what his dad is, means he has what I am attempting to describe.

captbarnacles · 01-11-2015 8:41pm

kuang1 wrote: »

I for one wouldn't be too happy with Heaslip as captain. When he was captain for a time before I remember being uneasy about it then too.

And my only reason is that he hasn't got that 'steeliness' to his persona.

Thinking of POC, BOD and Wood, these guys were able to drop the grins and smiles from their faces, and you knew then that what they were talking about was serious sh1t. And you'd better fukkin listen to whatever comes out of their mouth next...
Heaslip hasn't got that.

Is it plain old charisma maybe? Steeliness I call it but maybe charisma is more accurate.
For all of Jamie's attributes (and we all know there are many), I just didn't feel inspired with him wearing the captain's armband in the past, and wouldn't now either.

That said...there's no hugely obvious alternative. But Best would get my vote.

Outside of the squad does it really matter who he inspires?

Next Irish captain

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