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Census 2016 - Time to tick NO
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Choochtown wrote: »Can there be a more suggestive question than "What is your religion?" ?
Yes there can, and I've mentioned it already -
"Are you atheist?"
You still haven't answered the question that followed it.
Do you think you'd have anything close to 57% of Ireland answering "YES" to that question?Surely that would suggest very strongly that you must have a religion and therefore tick one of the 6 religions shown shown directly after the question.
Contrast that with the other suggestive questions on the census.
Qu.19 How do you usually travel to work? (Suggesting that you must work)
First option: Not at work
Qu.s 20 and 25 are similar.
That only backs up what I said earlier, that the question of religion was the easiest question to answer in the in-laws household that night. Somehow they all displayed the genius levels of intellect that are required apparently, and managed to find the 'None' option for themselves, and the RC option for me.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Yes there can, and I've mentioned it already -
"Are you atheist?"
You still haven't answered the question that followed it.
Do you think you'd have anything close to 57% of Ireland answering "YES" to that question?
That only backs up what I said earlier, that the question of religion was the easiest question to answer in the in-laws household that night. Somehow they all displayed the genius levels of intellect that are required apparently, and managed to find the 'None' option for themselves, and the RC option for me.
Have to disagree with that.
"Are you atheist?" You can answer Yes or No
"What is your religion?" Strongly suggests that your answer is a religion.
Surely you can see the difference?0 -
Choochtown wrote: »Have to disagree with that.
"Are you atheist?" You can answer Yes or No
"What is your religion?" Strongly suggests that your answer is a religion.
You still haven't answered the question I asked!Surely you can see the difference?
The only difference here I see is that you asked me could there be a more suggestive question, and I demonstrated that there could (that was the point), and when I ask you a question, you keep avoiding it, twice now. Do it a third time and there's likely to be a cock crow somewhere!! The question again -
Do you think anything close to 57% of Ireland would answer "YES", if asked on the census form, "Are you atheist?"
It's really not a trick question designed to make you overthink it or anything, a simple yes or no will do.0 -
... Sorry O E Jack, I had to go looking for that question.
Do I think 57% would answer "Yes" to "Are you an Atheist?"
No, of course not. For that survey, 10% claimed to be atheist and another 43% claimed to be not religious. Only 47% claimed to be religious in stark contrast to the 94% who ticked Catholic on the Census.
Anyway I'm not sure how relevant that is to the discussion as it's not a question on the Census.
... be interesting if it was though!0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »You still haven't answered the question I asked!
The only difference here I see is that you asked me could there be a more suggestive question, and I demonstrated that there could (that was the point), and when I ask you a question, you keep avoiding it, twice now. Do it a third time and there's likely to be a cock crow somewhere!! The question again -
Do you think anything close to 57% of Ireland would answer "YES", if asked on the census form, "Are you atheist?"
It's really not a trick question designed to make you overthink it or anything, a simple yes or no will do.
You didn't demonstrate a more suggestive question.
A question that gives you a Yes or No option is not as suggestive as one which asks you what religion you are and gives you a list of religions.0 -
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Choochtown wrote: »... Sorry O E Jack, I had to go looking for that question.
Do I think 53% would answer "Yes" to "Are you an Atheist?"
No, of course not. For that survey, 10% claimed to be atheist and another 43% claimed to be not religious.
Anyway I'm not sure how relevant that is to the discussion as it's not a question on the Census.
... be interesting if it was though!
Thank you, genuinely!
It's relevant because I was trying to show you that the questions on the census form aren't designed with the intention of trying to trick anyone. The questions are designed to be as accessible as possible to everyone, even those with reading difficulties, visual impairments and other languages. It's the very same set of questions on all of them that goes to every household.
There are anecdotal stories of impropriety and improperly filled out census forms littered throughout threads on Boards, and likely other social media platforms too, but as anyone who understands statistics will tell you - the plural of anecdote is not data.
It's like if you were to go into Harvey Norman in the morning and buy yourself one of those spanky new Barista style coffee machines, took it home and found it wasn't working. You'd likely post in Consumer Issues that Harvey Norman are not to be trusted because they sold you a lemon. You'd be absolutely correct as far as you're concerned, but for the hundreds of thousands of coffee drinkers enjoying their frappecappulattes, they'd wonder what the hell you were talking about.
Same thing with the religion question - you know a mere handful of people who either inappropriately or improperly filled out the census form, and so you extrapolate that out to the millions of adults who filled out the census form. Are you correct?
You are, for yourself, but you cannot assume you are correct in your opinion for the rest of the population.0 -
If you know you're being misrepresented, and choose not to have it rectified, then, yes, it is your choice. Arguably, if you think you might be recorded as something you say you're not, and choose not to ensure that doesn't happen, you're choosing to be misrepresented. And if you know for a fact that you're being recorded inaccurately, and choose not to do something about it, you're choosing to be misrepresented.It's not your choice to be misrepresented. As with my own case, I was marked down as No Religion (as per my choice), but it was then changed without my knowledge. Only for I decided to double check it myself did I see it.
Again? That's not a question you asked before! But, yes, I think people are as likely to answer this question incorrectly, without reading the instructions, or in a manner they feel makes them look better, as other questions. I don't think there's a shady conspiracy to misrepresent the religious composition of the nation, I think people are opinionated and may feel they're saying the right thing when they claim their hall, landing, and porch as 'rooms', or that they're genuinely citizens of the world and have 'no nationality' even though they travel on a British passport.Again, do you think the same thing would happen to even half the extent it does with that question, than with other questions?
We have enumerators who are supposed to help people answer questions correctly (not just the one about religion either), and even they can be misguided about what people are supposed to do; I don't think anyone making use of the statistical data imagines it's all 100% accurate.0 -
Great... since we ahve gone beyond the simple metrics of your original point, I'd say you're perfectly entitled to report your mother for falsifying the Census if you feel that strongly about it. If you don't feel that strongly about it... I suppose it's up to you how much you want to be reported accurately in the Census. It's not like you don't have a choice, so I don't think it'd be fair to entirely blame your mum for the Census result when you can do something about it.And we have gone beyond my original point. Now we are addressing the reasons for why the question was answered incorrectly for 75% of my household which appears to be unique to the question of religion.
As a matter of interest though, did you check how many rooms she said there were in her house?
You could certainly make an effort to persuade your mum that what she's doing is illegal, immoral, offensive to you, and that at very least she ought to consider your feelings before taking an action that could force you to report her to the authorities? If you had made the effort, you might have reduced the incorrect answers (to that particular question) in the first place by 100% in your house.You have mentioned that there is legal recourse that can be taken to correct an error in a completed census form, but should we make no efforts to reduce the incorrect answers in the first place?0 -
Is it possible those instructions are written down somewhere for people to see? I'd certainly like to see the word 'refusenik' in a governmental memoFred Swanson wrote: »This post has been deleted.
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Choochtown wrote: »You didn't demonstrate a more suggestive question.
A question that gives you a Yes or No option is not as suggestive as one which asks you what religion you are and gives you a list of religions.
If a person identifies as non-religious, they are by default, atheist.
They may not identify as atheist, but due to them neither being theist, deist, pantheist or agnostic, they are atheist.
"Are you atheist?" is as suggestive as it gets.
It presupposes in the same way as you ask "Are you religious", the person is going to think about which answer (yes/no) is the 'correct' one, and if they have issues with either atheism or theism (they could find either identifier jarring as neither has a great PR rep), they will answer with the lesser of the two they have an issue with.
How do you suppose Donald Trump is doing so well in the polls? It's not because people actually want to support Donald Trump, they're just less sick of him than they are in favour of the other guys. In the census - people are less sick of religion than they are in favour of identifying as atheist.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »Thank you, genuinely!
It's relevant because I was trying to show you that the questions on the census form aren't designed with the intention of trying to trick anyone. The questions are designed to be as accessible as possible to everyone, even those with reading difficulties, visual impairments and other languages. It's the very same set of questions on all of them that goes to every household.
There are anecdotal stories of impropriety and improperly filled out census forms littered throughout threads on Boards, and likely other social media platforms too, but as anyone who understands statistics will tell you - the plural of anecdote is not data.
It's like if you were to go into Harvey Norman in the morning and buy yourself one of those spanky new Barista style coffee machines, took it home and found it wasn't working. You'd likely post in Consumer Issues that Harvey Norman are not to be trusted because they sold you a lemon. You'd be absolutely correct as far as you're concerned, but for the hundreds of thousands of coffee drinkers enjoying their frappecappulattes, they'd wonder what the hell you were talking about.
Same thing with the religion question - you know a mere handful of people who either inappropriately or improperly filled out the census form, and so you extrapolate that out to the millions of adults who filled out the census form. Are you correct?
You are, for yourself, but you cannot assume you are correct in your opinion for the rest of the population.
Not me! I don't know anyone who filled that question out wrongly. I think that was another poster or posters.
I have a problem with how the question is asked and how it is set out in the form. I've outlined this previously.
I don't know why it's not a yes/no question or why the 2nd most common answer is hidden after 20 white boxes when for all the other questions with choices (questions 7, 8, 9, 11, 27) the white boxes are at the very end.
I don't know why for the most contentious question on the form there isn't even an explanatory note at the back when there are numerous explanations for much more obvious questions.
I think the question is heavily weighted towards encouraging (maybe unintentionally) people to tick the "Roman Catholic" option.
You only have to compare question 12 with question 14 to see that they are worded and set out completely differently. Why?
The word RELIGION is even printed in block capitals!! Why?
I think the census results for question 12 will be very inaccurate because of the ridiculously high difference in the results of the 2011 Census vs the 2011 Gallup poll.
Maybe you disagree. Look at the form. It's clear that question 12 is not designed to get a balanced overall accurate picture of religious beliefs and practices in Ireland.0 -
I don't think that's true.Choochtown wrote: »That's just not true. It's a different and misleading layout compared to all the other questions as I've outlined in posts 341 and 345 in this thread.
Not all the questions are yes/no questions, some of them are (statistically, 7 of 47, so less than 15%). Your suggestion that question 12 should be a yes/no question adds it to a minority of question formats, but more significantly changes the question, from what a person's religion is, to whether a person practices a religion (and what that religion is), rendering it useless for statistical comparison with previous questions... which is kind of the point of having a Census.
Census questions with multiple potential answers (such as what religion a person is) have the answers ranked in order of previous census results; that's why Roman Catholic is listed first, CoI 2nd, etc etc. As you've pointed out, No Religion is not a religion, so it makes no sense to list it amongst the religions people say they are; logically it comes after all the religions people might say they are when answering the question "What is your religion?" You might find that philosophically misleading, but it's statistically accurate, and the Census is a statistical, not a philosophical, document.
If it makes you feel better, I'd agree, if the question were to be changed to "Do you have a religion, and if so what", or something similar, it would be statistically sensible to have 'No Religion' as the 2nd option.0 -
Choochtown wrote: »Not me! I don't know anyone who filled that question out wrongly. I think that was another poster or posters.
I have a problem with how the question is asked and how it is set out in the form. I've outlined this previously.
I don't know why it's not a yes/no question or why the 2nd most common answer is hidden after 20 white boxes when for all the other questions with choices (questions 7, 8, 9, 11, 27) the white boxes are at the very end.
I don't know why for the most contentious question on the form there isn't even an explanatory note at the back when there are numerous explanations for much more obvious questions.
I think the question is heavily weighted towards encouraging (maybe unintentionally) people to tick the "Roman Catholic" option.
You only have to compare question 12 with question 14 to see that they are worded and set out completely differently. Why?
The word RELIGION is even printed in block capitals!! Why?
I think the census results for question 12 will be very inaccurate because of the ridiculously high difference in the results of the 2011 Census vs the 2011 Gallup poll.
Maybe you disagree. Look at the form. It's clear that question 12 is not designed to get a balanced overall accurate picture of religious beliefs and practices in Ireland.
Choochtown I've tried to explain it to you already - the form is designed to be accessible to a population, millions of people. It's not designed to trick people into answering anything incorrectly. The whole idea is that the data is intended to be as accurate a reflection and representation of the population as it is possible to get. The last thing they want, is inaccurate data, and every effort is made to minimise that possibility.
You're reading far too much into the question and dissecting it unnecessarily in the belief that the question is causing inaccurate data to be collected. Your basis for this claim appears to be based on another survey which could be equally representative of the population of Ireland's religiosity.
It's simply a matter of how the other question is phrased that gives the results it does, and as I pointed out already - both the survey, and the census, could be equally accurate, because they're not asking the same question. I can see the difference, and it's that difference is producing the different results.0 -
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Not really? According to the CSO, there is a purpose to asking the questions... just no one yet seems to have been able to show what the Govt uses that particular piece of data for. Anti-theists on the other hand, like to use it as a stick to beat theists with, so at least someone gets some use out of itFYP.
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Being offered a religious service is a million miles away having it forced upon ones self. Freedom of religion isn't freedom from religion or exposure to any other idea one dislikes.
I would consider someone repeatedly visiting my bedroom while sick to preach at me and offer Communion services despite being told repeatedly not to to be serious harassment.0 -
Under Catholic they should add a date box and put: "When was the last time you went to mass?"0
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Bristolscale7 wrote: »Under Catholic they should add a date box and put: "When was the last time you went to mass?"
Needs amending to
"When was the last time you went to mass?
(that wasn't a christening, death or marriage)"
:pac:0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Yes, I know what irrespective means. You're familiar with a suggestive question?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestive_question
Yes, I know what suggestive questions are, but the question in question was actually the opposite of what you said it was. It suggested that the respondent should not consider religious practise as necessary for religious belief and you said that it would make them more likely to answer that they were not religious if they didn't attend mass.
It was a question that was clear in what it was looking for. There is already an ambiguity about what constitutes 'religious', so the question was clarifying that it was asking about religious belief, not religious practise.
While every effort should be made to make sure that the questions in censuses and surveys are clear, unambiguous and do not lead or influence the respondent to answer one particular way, there are limits to how questions can be asked while still allowing the results of the survey to be interpreted and tabulated
The questions on the census need to have yes no style answers. There isn't room for nuance, so direct questions need to be asked, and to avoid confusion, clarifying statements need to be used.0 -
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Census questions with multiple potential answers (such as what religion a person is) have the answers ranked in order of previous census results; that's why Roman Catholic is listed first, CoI 2nd, etc etc. As you've pointed out, No Religion is not a religion, so it makes no sense to list it amongst the religions people say they are; logically it comes after all the religions people might say they are when answering the question "What is your religion?" You might find that philosophically misleading, but it's statistically accurate, and the Census is a statistical, not a philosophical, document.
Answers in order of previous results means that "no religion" should be 2nd on the list.
I would accept your point about making no sense to list "no religion" in the religion choices if that logic applied to the other questions as well.
But look at questions 19 and 20: How do you travel to work? What time do you leave home for work?
First choice is "Not at work" !0 -
The questions on the census need to have yes no style answers. There isn't room for nuance, so direct questions need to be asked, and to avoid confusion, clarifying statements need to be used.
Agree 100%. Very strange why this contentious question doesn't even get an explanatory note at the back of the form.0 -
No, they are not. Because religion is such a vague concept that is open to so many different interpretations that it is perfectly possible for someone to say they are not religious, while still believing that there is some kind of supernatural being.One eyed Jack wrote: »If a person identifies as non-religious, they are by default, atheist.
'I believe in god, but I am not religious' is a statement that many people would subscribe to.
Equally, there are very many people who don't believe in god, but still identify with a religion. 'I am a catholic but I don't believe any of the religious stuff'
So when the census asks 'What is your religion' nobody knows what the answers actually mean. Does it mean people who are from catholic families, or people who are culturally catholic or protestant, or jewish? Or does it mean people who actually believe in the religion.
The religious organisations use the answer to this question to lobby for their interests, but the question doesn't ask about religious belief at all, it only asks if people are members of a religion.
Rubbish, it's a direct question. It's a bad idea to include it on the census, because as a term, Atheist carries so much baggage that people are reluctant to use it even when they don't believe in god."Are you atheist?" is as suggestive as it gets.
A question like 'Do you consider yourself religious?' would be more suitable because it allows people to think about what they believe and answer yes or no based on their own beliefs, and if the answer to their question is 'Yes' then the next question could be 'What is your religion?'
Two perfectly reasonable questions that cover 99.9% of circumstances adequately with minimum confusion.
As an Atheist, I'd be more than happy to have atheists agnostics and associated fence sitters recorded as one 'non religious' group on the census, because delving any deeper into individual personal philosophy is for social scientists, not national censuses to investigate.
If someone is confused about religion and doesn't really know what they believe, then they will record their religious attitude at the time they are completing the form. it's a snapshot in time, as the census is supposed to be. If someone doesn't want to put down 'non religious' because they think it will offend god or the census people, then they're probably not non religious. If they don't want to put down religious because they don't want to be associated with the religious organisations, then that's their choice and it's a better reflection of society than putting down the religion of their parents because they were baptised as an infant.It presupposes in the same way as you ask "Are you religious", the person is going to think about which answer (yes/no) is the 'correct' one, and if they have issues with either atheism or theism (they could find either identifier jarring as neither has a great PR rep), they will answer with the lesser of the two they have an issue with.
They're not asked if they are religious or atheist. They're asked what religion they are, and for lots and lots of people, their religion is what they were born as, regardless of what they actually believe.How do you suppose Donald Trump is doing so well in the polls? It's not because people actually want to support Donald Trump, they're just less sick of him than they are in favour of the other guys. In the census - people are less sick of religion than they are in favour of identifying as atheist.0 -
Individual Census Forms - atheist.ie
Short blog by Atheist Ireland suggesting that people who want to make sure that their answers in the census are their own should request an individual census form.- What if you are not the person filling in the form?
- What if you are not openly non-religious?
- What if you live at home and your parents brought you up in a faith you no longer follow and will mark you as such on the form?
I think that's a good point to raise, even though it would only apply to a small amount of people. There are people who have not, or feel they cannot, openly express their true beliefs on religion to their family. Although I think a lot of people in this situation will still allow themselves to be marked as religious as ordering an individual census form will probably raise questions anyway, but it might help in situations like mine where my opinion was ignored.0 -
If you know someone will or has filled out incorrect information on a census form, can you request it be changed by the census powers that be?0
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Sure; if 'No Religion' were a religion I'd agree. And if 'No Religion' had a higher % than any any answer to "What is your religion?" it should come before all the potential answers, just as with 19 and 20 where you've pointed out;Choochtown wrote: »Answers in order of previous results means that "no religion" should be 2nd on the list. I would accept your point about making no sense to list "no religion" in the religion choices if that logic applied to the other questions as well.
We can see then, that where a non answer has a higher % response than the highest potential % response of any of the answers, it's placed first, before potential answers to the questions. And where a non answer has lower % response rate than the highest potential % response of any of the answers, it's placed last, after potential answers to the questions.Choochtown wrote: »But look at questions 19 and 20: How do you travel to work? What time do you leave home for work? First choice is "Not at work" !
Is there a question where that logical structure doesn't apply?
So... when I look at the placements of responses on the census form, I can see a plausible logical reasoning for them. Whereas your reasoning amounts to the notion that there is a conspiracy amongst civil servants to fool the public into claiming a religious affiliation they don't have in order to further some unknown but undoubtedly nefarious agenda? I think I know which way I'm leaning, but if you're not sure, you could ask the CSO for their actual reasoning? Though, of course, if there is a conspiracy, they won't tell you. Catch 22, eh?0 -
Sure; if 'No Religion' were a religion I'd agree. And if 'No Religion' had a higher % than any any answer to "What is your religion?" it should come before all the potential answers, just as with 19 and 20 where you've pointed out;
We can see then, that where a non answer has a higher % response than the highest potential % response of any of the answers, it's placed first, before potential answers to the questions. And where a non answer has lower % response rate than the highest potential % response of any of the answers, it's placed last, after potential answers to the questions.
Is there a question where that logical structure doesn't apply?
So... when I look at the placements of responses on the census form, I can see a plausible logical reasoning for them. Whereas your reasoning amounts to the notion that there is a conspiracy amongst civil servants to fool the public into claiming a religious affiliation they don't have in order to further some unknown but undoubtedly nefarious agenda? I think I know which way I'm leaning, but if you're not sure, you could ask the CSO for their actual reasoning? Though, of course, if there is a conspiracy, they won't tell you. Catch 22, eh?
I wasn't suggesting a conspiracy (although given the Catholic Church's track record ...)
There is however a strong case for accusations of negligence here, for 2 reasons:
1. If your remit is "for the formation, implementation and monitoring of policy and programmes at national, regional and local levels" (from their website) then given the gross discrepancy between your findings and the findings of one of the world's leading statistical organisations (2011 Gallup), at the very least you would investigate why. They acknowledged as much in last week's Irish Times but the feeble excuse of "budgetary restraints" (particularly given the importance of their remit) is not acceptable.
2. If you have a page on the back of the census for explanatory notes your most publicised and contentious question for the last 2 census should obviously be explained on that page. No excuse for this omittance (not even budgetary restraints) when the space is used to tell us for example "Question 22: Do you provide regular unpaid help for a friend or family member ... ... if you provide regular unpaid help you should mark box 1 (Yes)"0 -
Have you actually explained to the rest of the family that their census form is being filled in wrongly?My mother, being the designated census filler in our home, has marked me as RC in both 2006 and 2011 despite me being openly atheist since 2004. We've argued over it but I am not going to battle the pen out of her hand, so I have been marked down incorrectly twice.
After discussions with both my father and my sister I found that neither of them believe in a god, the former actively despising the RC, yet both are marked as RC because they think that since they were both baptised then they are Catholics.
One household. 4 people. 1 Roman Catholic, yet 4 marked on the census.
Obviously this is just a personal account, not all households are the same, but I would be shocked if it was unique!
All you have to do is tell your mother, in a calm and factual manner, that the religion question refers to a person's current beliefs.
If she persists in putting down the incorrect information, tell her she is committing an offence.
I wouldn't advise taking it any further, but you are being remiss yourself if you don't explain all this to the rest of them.
I doubt there would be many people in the country who knowingly falsify the religion entry in the census form, even after it has been pointed out to them.0 -
There are three adults in my house. We each fill out our own information. I'd only fill in the data for my six year old because he can't do it himself. I can't understand adults living with a parent or partner who insists on filling out the information for them against their will. If you know someone is going to tick an incorrect box on purpose just fill it in yourself.0
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Have you actually explained to the rest of the family that their census form is being filled in wrongly?
All you have to do is tell your mother, in a calm and factual manner, that the religion question refers to a person's current beliefs.
If she persists in putting down the incorrect information, tell her she is committing an offence.
I wouldn't advise taking it any further, but you are being remiss yourself if you don't explain all this to the rest of them.
I doubt there would be many people in the country who knowingly falsify the religion entry in the census form, even after it has been pointed out to them.We've argued over it but I am not going to battle the pen out of her hand, so I have been marked down incorrectly twice.
As I have explained, this is an important issue to me but not to the extent that I'd cause bad blood between myself and my family. I may argue about this a lot on the internet, but I'm not actually a militant atheist.0
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