I hate the M50 [Warning post #222]

ThisRegard

plodder wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to just keep piling traffic onto the M50 if it's not moving.

There's four lanes on the N3 approaching the M50, with separate ones for M50 North, city centre and M50 South. M50 South being the most likely to get congested and these are the right most two.

I think you'd have to do some modelling to see whether the effect would be beneficial overall. I think it's worth looking at.

The 4 lanes don't start until after the very last slip onto the N3 near the hospital, once traffic is built up to there, which is a regular occurrence, all bets are off with getting easy access to the M50 northbond, or getting around anywhere in Dublin 15/Lucan. Traffic builds back past Clonee and as far out as Fairyhouse on a really bad day.

shootermacg

Like this reply from the comments on the M50 piece:

"Bring in a Vehicle recognition based on number plates like they have in the UK and scan every car on the motorway for NCT, tax and insurance. That would keep a few thousand people off the road. Then increased garda presence, make it a almost impossible to drive dangerously without being caught and apply the same rules to people hogging the overtaking lane, its the same as driving dangerously. Although that lane doesn't apply in rush hour. "

We definitely need to automate the process of policing the M50. I'd add speed cameras to this. The tech is available, why not get it. It would go a long way to removing undesirable elements.

Smoothing out traffic is a priority.

plodder

ThisRegard wrote: »

The 4 lanes don't start until after the very last slip onto the N3 near the hospital, once traffic is built up to there, which is a regular occurrence, all bets are off with getting easy access to the M50 northbond, or getting around anywhere in Dublin 15/Lucan. Traffic builds back past Clonee and as far out as Fairyhouse on a really bad day.

If it's backed up that far, then the M50 must be close to a standstill (accident maybe). The idea is to prevent these stupid daily prangs by getting all traffic trundling along in all lanes at the same lowish speed. TBH, it's impossible to know the effect of measures like this without modeling it. Some of these things are not intuitive, eg. that lower speed limits can reduce journey times. All I'm saying is that someone should look into it.

First Up

plodder wrote:

If it's backed up that far, then the M50 must be close to a standstill (accident maybe). The idea is to prevent these stupid daily prangs by getting all traffic trundling along in all lanes at the same lowish speed. TBH, it's impossible to know the effect of measures like this without modeling it. Some of these things are not intuitive, eg. that lower speed limits can reduce journey times. All I'm saying is that someone should look into it.

Apart from the ocassional rear-ending, accidents on the M50 are caused by people changing lanes when they shouldn't. This includes at entry and exit ramps but mostly its the stop/go stuff and (my hobby horse) people trying to get past the dopes sitting in the middle lane.

If VSL can help keep all lanes moving, it will help but so would a massive education and enforcement programme about how to use a multi-lane road.

ThisRegard

plodder wrote: »

If it's backed up that far, then the M50 must be close to a standstill (accident maybe). The idea is to prevent these stupid daily prangs by getting all traffic trundling along in all lanes at the same lowish speed. TBH, it's impossible to know the effect of measures like this without modeling it. Some of these things are not intuitive, eg. that lower speed limits can reduce journey times. All I'm saying is that someone should look into it.

Yes, but by artificially slowing and holding back traffic you'll cause this tailback.

First Up

ThisRegard wrote:

Yes, but by artificially slowing and holding back traffic you'll cause this tailback.

I'd take a marginally slower journey over sitting for an hour behind yet another accident.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

ThisRegard

First Up wrote: »

I'd take a marginally slower journey over sitting for an hour behind yet another accident.

This is the thing, it won't be a marginal difference, the problem will just radiate out and snow ball.

And as said above, it won't stop accidents either. Manyof them, including some last week that caused city wide problems, occurred very early in the morning before the road hit its peak.

sdanseo

When oh when will the gantry signs be rolled out. The gantries are prepped for them, the infrastructure is there at the roadside - get them in. And more VMS.

Did 2,000km across the UK and back recently and was surprised at the effect the variable speed limit, CONSTANT speed cameras (every 1/2 mi) and relative lack of middle lane hogging did to the flow of traffic. 60mph, 50mph and even 40mph VSL depending on the level of congestion and the cameras are just so frequent that everyone heeds it. There have been studies which have shown the reduced limit can dramatically improve traffic and I've now seen it working.

Also a visible Garda presence is imperative. 3/4 marked vehicles need to be on the length of the M50 at any given time.

Irish Steve

yes, VSL. properly enforced, with a more visible garda presence, and I'd even got as far as suggesting that there should be a much more rigid lane enforcement system that would absolutely prevent lane 2/3 to exit or slip to lane 2/3 jumping for as much as a mile before and after the hot spot junctions.

It could be managed a lot easier if we had some of these devices to set up and manage traffic flow with more flexibility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf4h7j6ypFg

The ability to rapidly deploy and move barriers across lanes could make a HUGE difference to controlling the eejits that won't use lanes properly, and also enable better management of accident sites and roadworks, and with this flexibility, the problems of queues at hot spot junctions could very rapidly be solved, if there's a barrier between you and your intended exit, then sorry, you go to the next exit and come back again, you were in the wrong lane. Much better than the present mess where people force their way through 2 or 3 lanes because they're too important to queue.

Charles Babbage

plodder wrote: »

If it's backed up that far, then the M50 must be close to a standstill (accident maybe). The idea is to prevent these stupid daily prangs by getting all traffic trundling along in all lanes at the same lowish speed. TBH, it's impossible to know the effect of measures like this without modeling it. Some of these things are not intuitive, eg. that lower speed limits can reduce journey times. All I'm saying is that someone should look into it.

enjoy http://traffic-simulation.de/

First Up

ThisRegard wrote:

And as said above, it won't stop accidents either. Manyof them, including some last week that caused city wide problems, occurred very early in the morning before the road hit its peak.

As I said (if you bothered to read it), the real need is education and enforcement about how to use a multi lane road.

ThisRegard

This is what you said in reply to my point that it would likely result in tailbacks radiating from the slips, and was the post I was replying to.

First Up wrote: »

I'd take a marginally slower journey over sitting for an hour behind yet another accident.

First Up

ThisRegard wrote: »

This is what you said in reply to my point that it would likely result in tailbacks radiating from the slips, and was the post I was replying to.

And I'm pointing out that I have already said (several times) that driver behaviour is the thing that needs to be addressed.

trellheim

Driver behaviour
Enforcement
Control - VMS Gantries
Variable road pricing Additional tolling at all entry and exit, extra charge for peak time entry - pay to play , the busiest segments aren't tolled.

Now you'll hear massive amounts of never not till a replacement solution is put in; but that won't solve the problems now.

Another tolling gantry at a fiver a pop between Ballymount and Red Cow, and another at Dundrum and Bray should cut down on a lot of this

Use the cash to fund public transport alternatives

ohnonotgmail

trellheim wrote: »

Driver behaviour
Enforcement
Control - VMS Gantries
Variable road pricing Additional tolling at all entry and exit, extra charge for peak time entry - pay to play , the busiest segments aren't tolled.

Now you'll hear massive amounts of never not till a replacement solution is put in; but that won't solve the problems now.

Another tolling gantry at a fiver a pop between Ballymount and Red Cow, and another at Dundrum and Bray should cut down on a lot of this

Use the cash to fund public transport alternatives

god help us if you ever become minister for transport.

magicbastarder

there are about eight junctions on the M50 - if we're to accept tolling, it should be based on distance travelled, rather than just 'did you cross the west link'. so maybe 25c for every segment you travel between a junction.

shootermacg

Charles Babbage wrote: »

enjoy http://traffic-simulation.de/

I had good fun with this ^ ^. One of the main issues would seem to be joining lanes. A dedicated lane here would definitely work wonders, but people would eventually use it as another lane. Basically bad driver behaviour, lane hogging but primarily speeding / tailgating would seem to be the cause of most of the tailbacks.

Punitive punishments for tail-gating, speeding, automatic speed camera's, a slower speed limit and variable adaptive speed limits would go a long way to smoothing out the issues.

In the case of hold-ups, it makes sense to slow the speed of cars behind, while increasing the speeds of cars in front.

Oh and if muppets would stop driving like maniacs and crashing, then that would help too. Drivers have proven that they need to be managed, because there's a large percentage that cannot manage themselves.

Seth Brundle

trellheim wrote: »

Another tolling gantry at a fiver a pop between Ballymount and Red Cow, and another at Dundrum and Bray should cut down on a lot of this

People would simply come off before those exits and use link roads. Truckers did the same in Drogheda for years!

First Up

kbannon wrote: »

People would simply come off before those exits and use link roads. Truckers did the same in Drogheda for years!

It would certainly reduce my usage, but after some recent experiences, I try to avoid it anyway. If I am going to the airport for example, I have the option of the M50 from Sandyford, the Port Tunnel or going through town. With the number of shunts and long delays, I simply can't risk the M50 anymore. Going through town is pretty slow, so more often than not I use the tunnel. €3 for the tunnel is decent value even compared to current M50 tolls. If those tolls go up, its a no-brainer.

trellheim

Another tolling gantry at a fiver a pop between Ballymount and Red Cow, and another at Dundrum and Bray should cut down on a lot of this

Use the cash to fund public transport alternatives
god help us if you ever become minister for transport.

Assuming no new infrastructure solutions ( including magic public transport ) or driver behaviour changes will come along in next 5 years, this is the only option that should reduce M50 crowding.

Something can be worked out for the trucks easily to allow them stay on the M50 cheaply as I agree they should not be forced off.

Seth Brundle

trellheim wrote: »

Something can be worked out for the trucks easily to allow them stay on the M50 cheaply as I agree they should not be forced off.

We should be encouraging more use in rail distribution over what's left of our rail network. Making the tolls cheaper for trucks would be a backward step.

Carawaystick

trellheim wrote: »

Assuming no new infrastructure solutions ( including magic public transport ) or driver behaviour changes will come along in next 5 years, this is the only option that should reduce M50 crowding.

Something can be worked out for the trucks easily to allow them stay on the M50 cheaply as I agree they should not be forced off.

The trucks already get up to a tenner off m50 journeys...

trellheim

We should be encouraging more use in rail distribution over what's left of our rail network. Making the tolls cheaper for trucks would be a backward step.

I completely agree but the Road hauliers lobby network is very good, and the trucks aren't a big part of it. ( the aadt sites have a breakdown if I recall ).

Fixing the trucks on the M50 would not solve the problems here.

Commotion Ocean

I cannot grasp the idea of tolling the M50 or people advocating increasing tolls.

In normal countries they have "congestion charges" which charge peoole to drive through the city centre.

The M50 was built for tbe very purpose of keeping people off the city centre roads. I'd say remove tolls from M50 and put a charge on using city centre roads.

MASSIVE enforcement of labe hoggers. On-the-spot €200 fine and 3 points if caught.

Build a luas whuch follows the exact shape of the M50 with stops at each exit and feeder buses from each stop.

plodder

The M50 was moving very smoothly at 4pm this evening. All three lanes moving at 80km/h consistently, but the N4 was desperate, stop/start, extremely slow. I've noticed the same on bank holiday Fridays before.

plodder

plodder wrote: »

The M50 was moving very smoothly at 4pm this evening. All three lanes moving at 80km/h consistently, but the N4 was desperate, stop/start, extremely slow. I've noticed the same on bank holiday Fridays before.

Poets day! Plus all the westerners coming home for the long weekend.

fermanagh_man

Over the past week I've noticed this alot more probably because I had to break suddenly twice.

Happened at J7 southbound but I'm sure it happens at others, cars attempting to exit this junction at the very last moment?
I've seen cars move across 3 lanes of traffic and make a last ditch attempt to exit.

mfceiling

fermanagh_man wrote: »

Over the past week I've noticed this alot more probably because I had to break suddenly twice.

Happened at J7 southbound but I'm sure it happens at others, cars attempting to exit this junction at the very last moment?
I've seen cars move across 3 lanes of traffic and make a last ditch attempt to exit.

Same here. B*stards who won't merge and think they can queue jump as they please. I can almost spot them now from my daily drive and if I get the chance I will mirror their speed and not allow them to push in.

Seth Brundle

mfceiling wrote: »

Same here. B*stards who won't merge and think they can queue jump as they please. I can almost spot them now from my daily drive and if I get the chance I will mirror their speed and not allow them to push in.

How will making a driver more irritable or anxious improve the M50 mess?