Should Peyton Manning Retire?

Magico Gonzalez

StringerBell wrote: »

This gets a pretty big lol

Also excellent timing, just as he was intercepted I believe?

He has come off a bye, is having no pressure put on him and nothing is put to bed tonight, he is still on a rapidly downward spiral and nothing is going to change that at this point. Get used to it.

If you honestly believe a 7-0 QB who has just beat the Packers and put up big numbers needs to retire mid season you need to have a word with yourself.

Try and be a little but objective.

D9Male

Peyton is not playing like he did years ago, but he is doing okay. I don't think anybody thinks he will ever get to where he was, but he might win another Super Bowl.

eagle eye

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

If you honestly believe a 7-0 QB who has just beat the Packers and put up big numbers needs to retire mid season you need to have a word with yourself.

Try and be a little but objective.

Personally I said he shouldn't retire but people really need to be objective. He looks good for a good part of a game and in they come shouting how anybody who said he should retire are basically idiots.

From where I'm standing he certainly has declined and a performance like last night coming off a bye week with no pass rush to affect you is always going to make a QB look good. Jimmy Clausen, Ryan Mallett and Brandon Weeden would all have looked good last night.

Maybe though he will be more consistent as the season progresses but to jump in after three quarters of a game last night claiming you were right about him is just plain ridiculous.

StringerBell

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

If you honestly believe a 7-0 QB who has just beat the Packers and put up big numbers needs to retire mid season you need to have a word with yourself.

Try and be a little but objective.

I didn't say he should retire mid season, don't put words in my mouth, sound.

If you think last night is evidence of a triumphant return to the Manning of old I believe it is you who should have a word with yourself. All I pointed out was how foolish it is to take last night as evidence of such.

SameOleJay

eagle eye wrote: »

From where I'm standing he certainly has declined and a performance like last night coming off a bye week with no pass rush to affect you is always going to make a QB look good. Jimmy Clausen, Ryan Mallett and Brandon Weeden would all have looked good last night.

That's just absolute nonsense.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Not the biggest expert here but is it just me or does his stats seem significantly worse in 4th quarter?

Is he just getting tired?

http://www.nfl.com/player/peytonmanning/2501863/situationalstats

Some feel Osweiler may be an answer, could be thrown in for a quarter mix things up keep manning fresh?

Hulk Hands

I generally thought he'd be too clever not to figure out his limitations and find ways around it. Last night looked like a step in that direction although it's obviously a tiny sample size so you'd like to see more. Also possible the bye week helped clean up some injuries he looked to be carrying. He does have plenty of help now if he gets it together. Thomas looks to be playing at an insane level, best in the league along with Green imo. He alone is stopping the safeties pushing up. Sanders is very good, while the o-line looks to have shored up a bit. Add Davies into the mix now and the Broncos are starting to look formidable. I'd worry about games with high winds, where his arm strength mightnt check out. If not though, the Broncos are serious contenders in the playoffs where good D's generally come to the fore

LuckyLloyd

D9Male wrote: »

Peyton is not playing like he did years ago, but he is doing okay. I don't think anybody thinks he will ever get to where he was, but he might win another Super Bowl.

Well actually, no, he's not doing okay. He ranks 31st by traditional QB rating or 21st by ESPN's QBR method. Only Andrew Luck has thrown more interceptions than him, and the list of QBs who have thrown less TDs than him are a mix of the injured, the benched and the cut.

IF he was doing "okay" the Broncos would be very reasonable shouts for the Superbowl given their defense. Unfortunately the playoffs tend to expose QBs quite starkly and the prognosis for Manning is extremely negative. I completely agree that all talk of him going mid season is nonsense, irrespective of there being hypothetical options in existence that would improve them now at the position.

His track record in the playoffs shuts off any fairy tale ending to this one however. There will be money to be made backing against Denver in their first playoff outing I'm afraid to say.

poldebruin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well actually, no, he's not doing okay. He ranks 31st by traditional QB rating or 21st by ESPN's QBR method. Only Andrew Luck has thrown more interceptions than him, and the list of QBs who have thrown less TDs than him are a mix of the injured, the benched and the cut

I wouldn't, and I'm sure many on here wouldn't either - put too much heed on QB ratings or QBR. These same ratings have Brian Hoyer as a top 10 QB and Brandon Weeden @ 16. In truth, Manning has been good when it has mattered (and it helps that the int's he has thrown have been mitigated by the Defense not giving up points off them - pick sixes excepted) and seems to be either adjusting to the system, or adjusting to what he can and cannot do with the ball with diminished arm strength (which has also thrown off timing). I would still take this version of Manning over half the starting QB's in the league at the moment.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

IF he was doing "okay" the Broncos would be very reasonable shouts for the Superbowl given their defense. Unfortunately the playoffs tend to expose QBs quite starkly and the prognosis for Manning is extremely negative. I completely agree that all talk of him going mid season is nonsense, irrespective of there being hypothetical options in existence that would improve them now at the position

The biggest obstacle to the Broncos making the Superbowl is not PM, but the fact they play in the AFC with what look like the 2 best teams in the NFL; New England and Cincinnati. All the work in the offseason was aimed at addressing the disappointing performances in the playoffs the last 3 years - namely not leaning on Manning and the passing game, which, I think we can all agree they are certainly not doing this year.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

His track record in the playoffs shuts off any fairy tale ending to this one however. There will be money to be made backing against Denver in their first playoff outing I'm afraid to say

I agree the cold and windy weather for the playoffs will do Manning no favours, his already slow paced, arcing throws will be more affected than most, but with it looks as though the running game and the Defense will make them a tough out for whoever they play come January (assuming they make it!)

LuckyLloyd

Look, you can choose any statistical indicator you prefer. Manning is stinking the place up in all of them.

Jolly Red Giant

As I said on the other thread - I am going to re-watch the game tonight and focus on Manning's play with a cold eye.

poldebruin wrote: »

I wouldn't, and I'm sure many on here wouldn't either - put too much heed on QB ratings or QBR. These same ratings have Brian Hoyer as a top 10 QB and Brandon Weeden @ 16. In truth, Manning has been good when it has mattered (and it helps that the int's he has thrown have been mitigated by the Defense not giving up points off them - pick sixes excepted) and seems to be either adjusting to the system, or adjusting to what he can and cannot do with the ball with diminished arm strength (which has also thrown off timing). I would still take this version of Manning over half the starting QB's in the league at the moment.

I too would normally toss 'stats' out the window (particularly the 'ratings') - but stats don't lie and Manning's stats up to Sunday have been brutal and on a downward trajectory. He hasn't been good 'when it mattered' throughout the first six games - the Broncos D has been good when it mattered. If Manning hadn't been so p*ss poor it wouldn't have 'mattered' because the games wouldn't have been close enough for 'it' to matter.

The key to the improvement from Manning against GB appears to have been the improvement in the running game which forced to GB D to back off on the pressure which gave Manning more time to set his feet which helped his timing. I will comment more after I watch it again.

poldebruin wrote: »

The biggest obstacle to the Broncos making the Superbowl is not PM, but the fact they play in the AFC with what look like the 2 best teams in the NFL; New England and Cincinnati. All the work in the offseason was aimed at addressing the disappointing performances in the playoffs the last 3 years - namely not leaning on Manning and the passing game, which, I think we can all agree they are certainly not doing this year.

This is absolutely true - I get the impressions that Kubiak and Manning appear to be more on the same page this week. It looked like Manning accepted he didn't have to win the game on his own and his job was to manage the offence and minimise mistakes. If Manning avoids throwing up picks (particularly pick-sixes) then this offence automatically gets better.

poldebruin wrote: »

I agree the cold and windy weather for the playoffs will do Manning no favours, his already slow paced, arcing throws will be more affected than most, but with it looks as though the running game and the Defense will make them a tough out for whoever they play come January (assuming they make it!)

Yes - the Broncos will likely gallop to the AFC West (7-0 with two games against the woeful Chargers and home games against the Chiefs, Raiders - away games against the poor Colts and Bears) - with a possible bye - and then it will be all about can the Broncos run the ball. The Broncos D will limited any offence no matter who they play - but they can't stop everything and the Broncos O has to give them a breather during the game. All of that comes down to can they run the ball and can Manning game manage without making mistakes.

Just one other point - the Broncos D is not just good - there is incredible depth right across the positions. The Broncos have two back-up pass rushers who would walk into most teams, the same at DE, LB, CB and even S. Add in Phillips as DC and this D is very hard to beat. I look forward to seeing how they handle Brady and Gronk.

D9Male

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Look, you can choose any statistical indicator you prefer. Manning is stinking the place up in all of them.

7 and zip.

D9Male

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

His track record in the playoffs shuts off any fairy tale ending to this one however. There will be money to be made backing against Denver in their first playoff outing I'm afraid to say.

There is every chance that his first playoff outing will be against teams with either Andy Dalton or Andrew Luck under centre. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick.

matthew8

I wouldn't totally write Manning off, I thought he looked good against Green Bay but that's generally how QBs look with good protection. It's ridiculous to try and defend his performance for the first 6 weeks though by saying he has played well when it mattered. 4 of their 6 wins were one score games in which the defense scored a touchdown. Against the Browns he threw an interception that put them into game winning field goal range but his defense completely bailed him out with 3 straight negative yardage plays. Against the Raiders he threw an interception late in the third in field goal range only up by 2 but again got completely bailed out. Arguing that he's done alright on the basis of wins is ludicrous, you could have said the same about Tebow.

Hulk Hands

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

His track record in the playoffs shuts off any fairy tale ending to this one however. There will be money to be made backing against Denver in their first playoff outing I'm afraid to say.

Any interest in an even money bet that they'll lose their first playoff game? I'll take them to win

poldebruin

matthew8 wrote: »

It's ridiculous to try and defend his performance for the first 6 weeks though by saying he has played well when it mattered. .

I'm not defending his performance, overall it has been decidedly average. I was disagreeing that he has been worse than okay and possibly the worst QB in the league as suggested by the 31st ranking in the standings. If he can take better care of the football, he is still completing a high % of passes and on pace for 4200 yards. With a smothering D and a competent running game that should formidable in January (should!)

matthew8 wrote: »

4 of their 6 wins were one score games in which the defense scored a touchdown. Against the Browns he threw an interception that put them into game winning field goal range but his defense completely bailed him out with 3 straight negative yardage plays.

Plenty of NFL games are decided by a single score when the defense or ST has made a play that impacts the outcome. Nobody constantly goes on about it the way they have with Manning and the Broncos this year. They haven't bailed Manning out, they've just helped the Broncos win.

matthew8 wrote: »

Against the Raiders he threw an interception late in the third in field goal range only up by 2 but again got completely bailed out. Arguing that he's done alright on the basis of wins is ludicrous, you could have said the same about Tebow.

As JRG mentioned, you could argue that it "matters" all the time. But the fact is he has played noticeably better when trailing this year (96-odd Rating). Against the Ravens, Chiefs, Vikings and the Browns he led game saving/clinching drives, was good against the Packers and Lions and terrible in the Raiders game.

For a guy who can barely throw a football he's doing alright. Now it remains to be seen if it will be enough to carry them deep in the playoffs when it gets colder, but that was the plan all along, to not need PM to be PM come playoff time. (Tebow did well the year he started for Denver - but I'll leave that discussion to another thread)

JaMarcusHustle

It's telling that Manning looked better coming off a bye week when he had 2 weeks to recuperate.

Let's not forget he fell apart towards the end of last year when everything caught up with him. He now has 9 games in 9 weeks coming up, no more rests, weather getting significantly colder and that shoulder will start to hurt.

It's very, very difficult to forecast things getting better for him.

Moist Bread

D9Male wrote: »

There is every chance that his first playoff outing will be against teams with either Andy Dalton or Andrew Luck under centre. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick.

Look how far my boy has fallen

StringerBell

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Any interest in an even money bet that they'll lose their first playoff game? I'll take them to win

He would be a bit mad to take that bet considering, if they make the playoffs (which they will surely) they will start as favorites against whoever they take on, so the other team could be backed at better then even money.

LuckyLloyd

D9Male wrote: »

7 and zip.

I know, Manning has been a giant on D eh?

D9Male wrote: »

There is every chance that his first playoff outing will be against teams with either Andy Dalton or Andrew Luck under centre. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick.

LOLton or Luck are better NFL QBs right now imo. Even Harvard is probably a better proposition. Bear in mind Luck and Fitz have injury problems.

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Any interest in an even money bet that they'll lose their first playoff game? I'll take them to win

Sure yeah. I'll do up to €50. You can PM to confirm.

LuckyLloyd

StringerBell wrote: »

He would be a bit mad to take that bet considering, if they make the playoffs (which they will surely) they will start as favorites against whoever they take on, so the other team could be backed at better then even money.

Ah yeah, but sure it's a bit of fun.

D9Male

It is just that you cited Manning's playoff record as a reason to bet against him.

I was offering Luck and Dalton as QB's with inferior playoff records.

And Fitz as a QB that few would take over Peyton at the moment.

I have no idea what will happen the Broncos. I think their offensive struggles and tough schedule will mean they don't get a Top 2 seed in the NFC. Likelihood is they won't make the conference final. But given their D, and the fact that Peyton is not that bad (in my opinion) with a bit of upside as shown at the weekend, I think they have a fighting chance in January of doing something really cool, winning a Super Bowl in the twilight of Peyton's career.

This reason alone means there is zero chance the organisation or the QB will look elsewhere.

There is just as much chance that he will continue to perform at his current (or slightly lower) level. And they will go (say) 11-5 and get spanked by the Jets or whoever in the WC round as he gets sacked and throws picks. I acknowledge that. I guess most of the other guys on the thread would also acknowledge that.

But I would say it would be lunacy to bring the novice in. That would diminish playoff chances at the drop of a hat.

I am a massive Dalton fan. And I think his "bottler" reputation is way over played. But pick a QB at 3rd and Goal on the 9 yard line in the Superbowl at 22-26 and 10 seconds on the clock. I would go with Peyton ahead of all bar 10 starting league quarter backs. And I bet Elway would too.

LuckyLloyd

Sure **** it, if I got to choose any QB to come out and play that scenario I'd wheel out Joe Ballgame or Elway himself one last time. :pac:

You have to get there first though, and I feel that will be the issue for the Broncos yet again.

I think the suggestion that they would change QB midseason is a pointless one as there is no chance whatsoever it happens. Manning is untradeable and on tick for a ton of cash so they don't really have any options to go into the market. He'll be there to the end of their season - no matter how bitter that end is.

Hulk Hands

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sure yeah. I'll do up to €50. You can PM to confirm.

Good stuff, 50 it is. Cheers

Jolly Red Giant

Finally got around to looking again at the Broncos / Packers game focusing on Manning's play.

I was reading yesterday that Manning spent a considerable amount of time with QB coach Greg Knapp working on his footwork. It was noticeable that Manning was more nimble on his feet against GB than he had in previous weeks. This was particularly evident in the one roll-out off of play-action in the 1st Qtr when he hit DT for a first down. Whether this improvement was down to his work with Knapp or because of more rest time because of the bye-week - time will tell.

A combination of factors led to Manning's improved play -

1. The line blocked better, particularly in the run game. This force Matthews to play close to the line leaving space behind the LBs for Manning to pass into.
2. The line kept a cleaner pocket which allowed Manning to set his feet which improved his timing on throws.
3. The GB secondary was forced to play with rookies - The Broncos repeatedly exploited this by getting the WRs to run crossing routes. The GB CBs backed off the WRs resulting in them being wide open across the middle and easy for Manning to hit with short range passes.
4. Manning didn't make mistakes - apart from trying to force one ball that was intercepted.

On the downside -

1. Most of Manning's passes lacked any real zip - particularly if they traveled more than 10 yards. In fact I only noticed one of Manning's passes the entire game that had real zip on it.
2. Manning throw four passes over 20 yards - all of them floated - one was caught by Thomas after he got behind the CB, one was way overthrown and the other two were in danger of being picked off.

On the Upside -
1. It looks like Manning has bought into Elway/Kubiak's strategy of emphasising the running game and a having a stifling defence.
2. Manning did a good job a managing the offence, exploiting the deficiencies of the GB defence and not trying to win the game on his own.
3. Manning's timing was significantly better than in previous games.

The major question mark still remains over whether Manning is physically capable of getting through the rest of the season. The OL is gelling a bit more. The running game is becoming more productive.

It emerged during the bye-week that Anderson was playing hurt since the start of the season and indicated that the bye-week had come at the right time to allow him to fully recover. The GB game was by far his most impressive - he ran with authority and hit the hole far quicker than he had done in the previous games. Running the ball out of the pistol requires Hillman's speed to take advantage of the stretch plays but Anderson can use his power to take advantage of a tiring defence later in the game. The improved running game will be important down the stretch.

The trade for Vernon Davis will benefit Manning by providing an extra receiving threat and allowing the Broncos to run more two TE sets to help the running game. Davis does not have to play at a pro-bowl level - he just has to be effective enough to force defences to respect his ability and allow DT and Sanders to stretch the secondary, get open and catch a few passes.

The Broncos are 7-0 and should win against the Colts this weekend. They could then potentially win against a poor Bears team, they have two winnable games against a struggling Chargers, a home game against a misfiring Chiefs and a tougher but winnable home game against an improving Raiders. The remaining 3 games are at home to the Pats and the Bengals and away to a so-so Steelers. A 12-4 or even 13-3 season is within the grasp of Manning and the Broncos.

The post-season will be a different kettle of fish. The games V the Pats and Bengals will tell a lot. But if the OL continues to gel, the running game gets going like it did against GB and Manning does a job as game manager - the Broncos D can do its business. My optimism is growing that Manning can keep it together enough to give the Broncos a shot in January. It would be a fitting end to a stellar career.

Last point - Kubiak, Phillips and the rest of the Broncos coaches deserve huge credit for how well they prepared the Broncos for the game against GB. It was clear that they had the measure of GB and gave them a spanking. The Broncos coaches have demonstrated that there are no egos in Dove Valley, and they have worked hard in figuring out how to use Manning meshed with their running game. Manning also deserves credit for how he has worked to integrate into what Kubiak and Elway are trying to do.

Roll on the Colts and then can't wait to see how the Denver D deals with Brady and Gronk.

StringerBell

I think everybody is looking forward to that one

StringerBell

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

Peyton Manning is great.

Watching tonight Ted?

LuckyLloyd

Ugly

LuckyLloyd

Very poor coaching to leave him out there tbh.

empacher

bye peyton