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Second coming of the Pope to coincide with General Election issue of 8th amendment?

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    #392
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I think from the rape victims viewpoint, if they are pregnant from the rape then there are no different levels about it. Its horrific and to try and class it as extreme or less extreme rape is frankly idiotic.
    I didn't say anything about different levels or extremeties; only that the assertion "If a women is raped and is pregnant and wants an abortion she should receive one. There is no question about it." is actually questionable; there are those who feel that she should not receive one. Whether or not a person in that situation should receive an abortion is a matter of opinion, not fact.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    The legislation ignores the bodily control and mental well being of the women,
    Being alive isn't much good if your mental health is beaten to hell due to what you are forced to endure. Mental health is still a health issue for the women and its being ignored,
    The legislation is The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, not The Protection of Health During Pregnancy Act. It's pretty ludicrous to say it's not working if it's not doing something it's not actually supposed to do.


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    #393
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    Cabaal wrote: »
    nobody is killing any child???



    You mean fetus or zygot surely?

    The pro-abortion groups where up in arms when a women could not go to the UK last year from Ireland to abortion a child in her last trimestre..


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    #394
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #395
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    The pro-abortion groups where up in arms when a women could not go to the UK last year from Ireland to abortion a child in her last trimestre..

    Are you talking about Miss Y? It's horrific that she was forced to remain pregnant.


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    #396
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    The pro-abortion groups where up in arms when a women could not go to the UK last year from Ireland to abortion a child in her last trimestre..
    She wanted the abortion in her first trimester and ended up giving birth late in her second. No third trimester was ever involved.


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    #397
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    She wanted the abortion in her first trimester and ended up giving birth late in her second. No third trimester was ever involved.

    Now now, don't let silly things like facts get in the way of ucseae1 inaccurate posts :pac:


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    #398
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    She wanted the abortion in her first trimester and ended up giving birth late in her second. No third trimester was ever involved.

    The child that is alive today. A living human being.


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    #399
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    The child that is alive today. A living human being.

    I don't think we even know whether it's alive or not, much less what physical or intellectual disabilities it may have suffered as a result of being artificially removed from the womb far too early.

    Do we?


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    #400
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I don't think we even know whether it's alive or not, much less what physical or intellectual disabilities it may have suffered as a result of being artificially removed from the womb far too early.

    Do we?


    Why do pro-abortion groups assume the worst?


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    #401
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Why do pro-abortion groups assume the worst?

    Is volchitsa a group?

    Also what assumption was made?

    Or are you assuming the worst by assuming Volchitsa was assuming the worst?


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    #402
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Why do pro-abortion groups assume the worst?

    It's not an assumption, it's a question. You appear to have information I'm not aware of. Or maybe you're just making stuff up. Do you know anything about Miss Y's baby's current state? If you don't, you can't assume it's alive and well today. It was born at a stage that meant its ability to survive was unclear and if it did survive, where its ability to thrive afterwards is even less likely.

    But hey, maybe you know something the rest of us don't, hmm?


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    #403
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Why do pro-abortion groups assume the worst?

    Why do anti-choice people always assume everything is fine and dandy and there are no issues?

    The reality is the fetus was removed at 24/25 weeks gestation, this comes with a number of risks.... Of course nobody here can no for certain because we do actually know the health of the born baby.

    You can however look at the stats and statically the chances of the child having issues is higher then the child being health, so if we go by stats the chances are higher that the child is not perfectly healthy.

    Outside of the issues with the fetus/child we know the mother was affected by this issue and is perusing a legal avenue in relation to having her requests ignored by the HSE.

    Who knows why long term mental affects this process may have had on her,


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    #404
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Kev W wrote: »
    Is volchitsa a group?

    Also what assumption was made?

    Or are you assuming the worst by assuming Volchitsa was assuming the worst?

    Nope, not a group, jes' li'l ole me!

    (I didn't bother picking him up on that (how do I just know it's a he? :D) because the assumption that Miss Ys baby is alive and well seemed like a far more important assumption. I'd genuinely like to know if he's okay, and I find it strange there has been absolutely nothing on his health after the initial reports about him.)


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    #405
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I find it strange there has been absolutely nothing on his health after the initial reports about him.)

    I don't,
    Like reports about people after accidents in the news, data protection kicks in and the general public is not entitled to know about the person health status....unless they or the guardian decides to provide this info.

    Of course it would be interested none the less, but I don't expect it to be announced.


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    #406
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Why do pro-abortion groups assume the worst?

    Why do anti-choicers assume the worst of women? Case in point being pretty much any of frostyjacks' posts on this.


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    #407
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Nope, not a group, jes' li'l ole me!

    (I didn't bother picking him up on that (how do I just know it's a he? :D) because the assumption that Miss Ys baby is alive and well seemed like a far more important assumption. I'd genuinely like to know if he's okay, and I find it strange there has been absolutely nothing on his health after the initial reports about him.)

    Maybe the mother wants some privacy? Would you like to grow up in the Media spotlight as they child your mother tried to abort?


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    #408
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Maybe the mother wants some privacy? Would you like to grow up in the Media spotlight as they child your mother tried to abort?

    So we're respecting her wishes now?


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    #409
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    Kev W wrote: »
    So we're respecting her wishes now?

    Who knows.. All we do know is that our 8th Amendment meant the child was born alive.


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    #410
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Maybe the mother wants some privacy? Would you like to grow up in the Media spotlight as they child your mother tried to abort?

    Once again you're back to assumptions,

    There is no evidence what so ever that Ms Y is the guardian of the baby at this point, for all you know she could have given it up to the state to care for it.

    The reason for no details being published comes down to Data Protection, nothing else.


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    #411
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Who knows.. All we do know is that our 8th Amendment meant the child was born alive.

    Alive at any cost eh?


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    #412
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Once again you're back to assumptions,

    There is no evidence what so ever that Ms Y is the guardian of the baby at this point, for all you know she could have given it up to the state to care for it.

    The reason for no details being published comes down to Data Protection, nothing else.

    Yeah that could be true. Do you think that killing the child would have helped the mother? didn't that child have a right to his/her life?


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    #413
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Yeah that could be true. Do you think that killing the child would have helped the mother? didn't that child have a right to his/her life?

    Given she was suicidal and refusing to eat, yes I do think the abortion of the fetus would have helped her. Instead she's been forced into a corner against her will to have a c-section so the rapist off-spring could be born.

    Do you think the mental state of the women will be unaffected by bearing the rapists off-spring?


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    #414
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Given she was suicidal and refusing to eat, yes I do think the abortion of the fetus would have helped her. Instead she's been forced into a corner against her will to have a c-section so the rapist off-spring could be born.

    Do you think the mental state of the women will be unaffected by bearing the rapists off-spring?

    To abort that child so late in the pregnancy they would have to have done an early labour induction or a Dilation and evacuation. This means killing the living child first. It wasn't a foetus anymore. The child was born alive.

    Any procedure that was done at the stage she presented to HSE was going to be traumatic . Being raped is traumatic.

    There are not wins in this, its an extremely sad situation. Taking it out on the child is not going to make the rape any less painful.


    TWO WRONGS WON'T MAKE IT RIGHT.
    The HSE terminated the pregnancy, it was all they could do.


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    #415
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    To abort that child so late in the pregnancy they would have to have done an early labour induction or a Dilation and evacuation. This means killing the living child first. It wasn't a foetus anymore. The child was born alive.

    Any procedure that was done at the stage she presented to HSE was going to be traumatic . Being raped is traumatic.

    There are not wins in this, its an extremely sad situation. Taking it out on the child is not going to make the rape any less painful.


    TWO WRONGS WON'T MAKE IT RIGHT.
    The HSE terminated the pregnancy, it was all they could do.
    But a further crime inflicted by our country on a victim of crime is much worse than the early pregnancy termination she actually asked for.

    Anyway, you said upthread that the law allowed abortion in the case of rape.
    Have you now changed your mind or do you not support the law in that?


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    #416
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    volchitsa wrote: »
    But a further crime inflicted by our country on a victim of crime is much worse than the early pregnancy termination she actually asked for.

    Anyway, you said upthread that the law allowed abortion in the case of rape.
    Have you now changed your mind or do you not support the law in that?

    All outcomes in the case are tragic. There is never going to be a happy ending. There is a lot more to the case. The reality is the child and Mother are alive because of our constitution. Respecting life at whatever stage of its development is right.


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    #417
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    All outcomes in the case are tragic. There is never going to be a happy ending. There is a lot more to the case. The reality is the child and Mother are alive because of our constitution. Respecting life at whatever stage of its development is right.

    But I thought you said it was right that she should be allowed an abortion in case of rape? What's happened to that bit of our constitution now? Have you disowned it?


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    #418
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    . Respecting life at whatever stage of its development is right.

    So the morning after pill is murder?


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    #419
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    TWO WRONGS WON'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

    A woman was raped and then forced to carry her rapist's fetus. That's two wrongs which, according to you, made a right.


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    #420
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kev W wrote: »
    A woman was raped and then forced to carry her rapist's fetus. That's two wrongs which, according to you, made a right.
    That's a very good play on words! Would have been better if ucseae1 had actually said 'make a right' instead of 'make it right' but still, as a clever point scorer A+. As an argument, F- unfortunately.


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    #421
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Absolam wrote: »
    That's a very good play on words! Would have been better if ucseae1 had actually said 'make a right' instead of 'make it right' but still, as a clever point scorer A+. As an argument, F- unfortunately.

    A+ for pedantry!

    F for actually having a point!

    I'd give an F- for having a point but since we're being pedantic, that's not actually a thing.


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