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Second coming of the Pope to coincide with General Election issue of 8th amendment?

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    #362
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    And causes problems in much wanted pregnancies because it affects the treatment of certain medical conditions during pregnancy along with making the management of miscarriages more difficult, that's even before we start to talk about severe and fatal abnormalities.

    To be perfectly honest, I'm a little offended that someone thinks my rights and the rights of my 18 week foetus should be considered equal. I am a lot more than a bloody incubator.


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    #363
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    And causes problems in much wanted pregnancies because it affects the treatment of certain medical conditions during pregnancy along with making the management of miscarriages more difficult, that's even before we start to talk about severe and fatal abnormalities.

    To be perfectly honest, I'm a little offended that someone thinks my rights and the rights of my 18 week foetus should be considered equal. I am a lot more than a bloody incubator.

    When does a child become a Child?


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    #364
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    When does a child become a Child?

    Is this the return of an old friend, I wonder..? :)


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    #365
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    When does a child become a Child?

    What's the difference between a Child and a child?


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    #366
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,882 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    When does a child become a Child?

    Personally, I'd say at the point when the foetus's nervous system is fully functioning (IIRC around the 20-22 week mark).


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    #367
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Personally, I'd say at the point when the foetus's nervous system is fully functioning (IIRC around the 20-22 week mark).

    Around 20-22 week?? So day 153 they are not a child, but day 154 they are? You can tell the sex of a child at 16 weeks.. Why not then?


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    #368
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #369
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Around 20-22 week?? So day 153 they are not a child, but day 154 they are? You can tell the sex of a child at 16 weeks.. Why not then?

    How many accounts now asking the same thing but not clarifying why it's ok to use the morning after pill, carry out abortions if a woman's life is at risk or for women to travel to kill the unborn. Yawn.


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    #370
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,882 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Around 20-22 week?? So day 153 they are not a child, but day 154 they are? You can tell the sex of a child at 16 weeks.. Why not then?

    Because at that point it still doesn't have a functioning nervous system and brain. I said that I believe that a foetus becomes a person when its brain AND nervous system starts functioning.


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    #371
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Because at that point it still doesn't have a functioning nervous system and brain. I said that I believe that a foetus becomes a person when its brain AND nervous system starts functioning.

    a litte scary that a life hangs in the balance of someones opinion about them.


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    #372
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    a litte scary that a life hangs in the balance of someones opinion about them.

    Like Savita?


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    #373
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    lazygal wrote: »
    Like Savita?

    How is the incompetence of undiagnosed septicemia got to do with abortion? Dozens of people die in irish hospitals from medical negligence and lack of resources.

    The 8th amendment did not cause her death. Obviously her rights are protected in it.


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    #374
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,882 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    That septicaemia was a result of her miscarriage, which was incompetently managed because the foetus still had a heartbeat, and the doctors didn't want to risk their jobs (or even go to jail!) for performing an abortion.


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    #375
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    That septicaemia was a result of her miscarriage, which was incompetently managed because the foetus still had a heartbeat, and the doctors didn't want to risk their jobs because they performed an abortion.

    Incompetence at the highest level. Many many doctors have said they would have delivered the pregnancy had they known her situation.

    But doesn't our current laws that Enda brought in clarify these situations? Haven't we had 20 abortions this year already when a mothers life is at risk.

    So why do we need to change the 8th?


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    #376
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,179 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Incompetence at the highest level. Many many doctors have said they would have delivered the pregnancy had they known her situation.

    But doesn't our current laws that Enda brought in clarify these situations? Haven't we had 20 abortions this year already when a mothers life is at risk.

    So why do we need to change the 8th?

    Actually several have said that they would probably have been faced with the same problem: her life wasn't at risk until the infection was already out of control.

    As to why it needs to be changed, because even if she had lived, the fact that the heartbeat of a dying fetus was legally considered lmore important than her health is totally unacceptable to anyone who sees women as something more than vessels.


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    #377
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    How is the incompetence of undiagnosed septicemia got to do with abortion? Dozens of people die in irish hospitals from medical negligence and lack of resources.

    The 8th amendment did not cause her death. Obviously her rights are protected in it.

    So please tell me why she couldn't have an abortion when she requested one.


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    #378
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Actually several have said that they would probably have been faced with the same problem: her life wasn't at risk until the infection was already out of control.

    As to why it needs to be changed, because even if she had lived, the fact that the heartbeat of a dying fetus was legally considered lmore important than her health is totally unacceptable to anyone who sees women as something more than vessels.

    Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 addressed a lot of these concerns. The fact that suicidal women are having abortions in Ireland instead of the Uk shows that.

    Its already happening in Ireland.

    So why do we need to change the 8th amendment?


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    #379
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 addressed a lot of these concerns. The fact that suicidal women are having abortions in Ireland instead of the Uk shows that.

    Its already happening in Ireland.

    So why do we need to change the 8th amendment?

    So women can.have abortions/kill the unborn/their children or Children here instead of abroad. And improving medical services for pregnant women more generally.
    Given that this has already been spelled out to you numerous times under your various guieses on this thread and others I suggest you stop asking the same tiresome nonsense questions you ignore the answers to and tell us how you respond to the other points many posters have asked you about. Namely, why the morning after pill is ok, why taking the unborn elsewhere to kill them is ok and why killing the unborn to save a woman's life is ok if both lives are equal. But of course you'll continue to spout the Lolek/Cora Sherlock/YouffDefence rhetoric about valueing women and girls and unborn babies and murder and rights and whatever else distracts us on why compulsory gestation is the right thing for women and girls who can't travel to kill the unborn. Same old same old. It's boring.


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    #380
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #381
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 addressed a lot of these concerns. The fact that suicidal women are having abortions in Ireland instead of the Uk shows that.

    What about the women who are pregnant out of rape and are effectively force into going to term and giving birth against their wishes?

    So why do we need to change the 8th amendment?

    Cause the current situation has far too many flaws,

    Its only fair that an Irish citizen below the age of 40 gets to have their say on this matter...since they've not had the chance to before,

    Put it to a vote for the people of Ireland, if they want it removed then it should be removed.


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    #382
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    Cabaal wrote: »
    What about the women who are pregnant out of rape and are effectively force into going to term and giving birth against their wishes?

    Did you read the legislation? The extreme cases where a woman falls pregnant because of rape are already covered under the irish legislation.


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    #383
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,179 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Did you read the legislation? The extreme cases where a woman falls pregnant because of rape are already covered under the irish legislation.

    Rape is in the legislation??

    No it isn't.


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    #384
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Rape is in the legislation??

    No it isn't.


    Yes it is. If the subsequent pregnancy (extreme case) however if the pregnancy causes the women to be suicidal she can terminate in Ireland. Its already happening by that way, there are already terminations in Ireland because of this clause.


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    #385
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,179 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Yes it is. If the subsequent pregnancy (extreme case) however if the pregnancy causes the women to be suicidal she can terminate in Ireland. Its already happening by that way, there are already terminations in Ireland because of this clause.
    So not because of the rape then. As I said.

    On the subject of pregnancy after rape, are you saying Cora Sherlock is wrong?
    http://www.thecollegeview.com/2015/10/14/abortion-not-ok-in-case-of-rape-pro-lifer-chair/
    Abortion should never be considered a viable option in any circumstance, even if the cause of an unplanned pregnancy is rape, according to the chairperson of the Pro-Life Campaign, Cora Sherlock.


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    #386
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,156 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Yes it is. If the subsequent pregnancy (extreme case) however if the pregnancy causes the women to be suicidal she can terminate in Ireland. Its already happening by that way, there are already terminations in Ireland because of this clause.

    I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

    Why should a rape victim have to claim to be suicidal to obtain the necessary medical treatment?


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    #387
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    Did you read the legislation? The extreme cases where a woman falls pregnant because of rape are already covered under the irish legislation.

    Hang on,
    There's extreme and less extreme cases of a women getting pregnant out of rape?

    If a women is raped and is pregnant and wants an abortion she should receive one. There is no question about it.
    No women should have to feel she has to end her own life just so she can get an abortion so she can feel like she has control over her own body.

    The women's bodily control was already taken away during the rape, prolonging the pregnancy continuous to mentally affect any women that does not want to be pregnant from a rape.

    Also know that this legislation isn't working as proven by such things as this,
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ms-y-to-sue-11-respondents-over-abortion-refusal-1.2357456


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    #388
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cabaal wrote: »
    If a women is raped and is pregnant and wants an abortion she should receive one. There is no question about it.
    Well, there is. There are people who feel rape doesn't justify abortion. There is no question about that.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Also know that this legislation isn't working as proven by such things as this,
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ms-y-to-sue-11-respondents-over-abortion-refusal-1.2357456
    How does that prove the legislation isn't working? The purpose of the legislation is to protect life during pregnancy; aren't both Miss Y and her child alive? How did the legislation not work?

    And, by the way, on topic, I doubt the Pope planned his visit to coincide with a General Election. If it were timed for just before an actual referendum on the 8th, then I'd think he was trying to exert some influence. Not that I think he shouldn't.


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    #389
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, there is. There are people who feel rape doesn't justify abortion. There is no question about that.

    I think from the rape victims viewpoint, if they are pregnant from the rape then there are no different levels about it.

    Its horrific and to try and class it as extreme or less extreme rape is frankly idiotic.

    How does that prove the legislation isn't working? The purpose of the legislation is to protect life during pregnancy; aren't both Miss Y and her child alive? How did the legislation not work?

    The legislation ignores the bodily control and mental well being of the women,
    Being alive isn't much good if your mental health is beaten to hell due to what you are forced to endure.

    Mental health is still a health issue for the women and its being ignored,


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    #390
    ucseae1
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭ucseae1


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

    Why should a rape victim have to claim to be suicidal to obtain the necessary medical treatment?

    If the mothers life and the childs life is not at risk why would you kill the child?


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    #391
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ucseae1 wrote: »
    If the mothers life and the childs life is not at risk why would you kill the child?

    nobody is killing any child???
    Biologically, a child (plural: children) is a human between the stages of birth and puberty

    You mean fetus or zygot surely?


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