EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Atlantic Dawn

If the figures here are proved to have been fiddled like the US then it's likely existing registered low motor tax cars on the road will all hold their value as VW will be unable to pass the tests with the current engines even with software upgrade at the same CO2 level meaning the motor tax will rise on the new stock for the near future. A €50 motor tax rise could mean someone not buying a €25k car in this country, people are that crazy.

Leonard Hofstadter

Well for a start the Government should increase the tax on diesel fuel (never going to happen in an election year I know), diesel produces 13% more CO2 per litre burned than petrol.

Your average small to medium sized petrol car will do about 40 mpg in real world driving (no matter how much the brochure wants to tell you otherwise), while a diesel does about 50 mpg. So, the average diesel is about 25% more fuel efficient BUT the CO2 reduction is only about 8.5% (a petrol doing 40 mpg pollutes 164 g/km, a 50 mpg diesel pollutes 150 g/km, by comparison a diesel doing 40 mpg pollutes 187 g/km or 23 g/km more than a petrol doing the exact same mpg). Despite this glaring difference between the mpg improvement and the CO2 improvement, diesel has less duty applied to it and as a result is often 10 cent a litre less expensive (and it's been more than that recently).

That is completely and utterly wrong no matter how much diesel fans will want to claim otherwise. I don't mind commercial vehicles or farming vehicles paying less fuel duty in order to make diesel more affordable for them (because there is no alternative) but under no circumstances should the Government be subsidising private motorists (who make up the overwhelming majority of vehicles on our roads) to buy a fuel with a higher carbon content (per litre burned) not to mention all the well known health ill affects.

A clampdown on VRT and motor tax also needs to be done, bringing back some fairness to the system rather than completely screwing petrol over, and making an anyway decent petrol too expensive to buy new and utterly utterly undesirable second-hand. We could look to the forthcoming UK system from 2017 for inspiration (where almost every new car will pay £140 a year in VED save the first year no matter what the CO2 rating is) on how to correct the glaring inequalities with the motor tax system in particular.

The other thing that's worth pointing out is that even if the 'clean diesels' were as clean as claimed and actually were compliant with the relevant EU legislation on Particulates and NOx, they would STILL not be as clean as a Euro 6 petrol on either.... in fact a correctly working Euro 6 diesel with no cheat systems or any other funny business going on is only required to be as kind to our lungs as a Euro 4 petrol, and there were Euro 4 petrols available as recently as 2001. So, a properly functioning non-cheating Euro 6 diesel is still 10 years behind where petrol engines were required to be on NOx and PM.

Again, that is totally and utterly wrong and the EU shameless insistence on CO2 reduction above all else (which has never happened in the real world anyway) and ignoring the Science and the well known health affects of diesel engines on human health has cost people their lives.

What is terrifying is that because politicians know so little about engines and engineering and Science in general, they will no doubt come up with some utterly daft and unworkable solution to this problem. While I would obviously like to see a decisive shift back towards petrol engines, I do worry that with the unworkable and unrealistic CO2 targets not going anywhere any time soon, the laws of unintended consequences will set in and we will be left with even more downsized and complex petrol engines which will have all the reliability issues diesels have given and will just cost the average motorist even more money (especially in a country like Ireland where servicing is very much seen as an optional extra and a 'waste of money').

Cookie_Monster

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ireland is not quite there yet, but from what I heard from a friend who works in Moneypoint (and no, he doesn't work in the canteen), the same problem applies here.
A plant like that can't just adjust up and down by 20% in 5 minutes, they run at a constant speed and changes need to be planned for. They don't rev up and down like a car.
Of course the one thing that can react quick enough is Nuclear, which Germany is getting rid of due to the usual "Think of the Children!" hysterical bullsh*t perpetrated by the usual "I haven't got the faintest notion about nuclear power, but!" screaming ninnies that are prevalent everywhere and that governments like to listen to for some unknown reason.
This brings us back to VW and other car makers. Screaming ninnies scream "think of the children!", politicians say "Here I am to the rescue and banging the table like a boss!" and so engineers, who are the only people in this chain who actually know what they're doing, have to work out solutions to completely daft and braindead laws driven by populism, hysteria and ignorance.

they're getting rid of it because of the ridiculously high cost of generating power, not from a think of the childers view

Damien360

I am here is California for training for a few weeks and as you would expect it is big news.

The US take on this from US colleagues, news daily :

The VW with that engine is now technically illegal to drive anywhere in the state of california and the locals, even the very smart ones, are worried they could get pulled by the cops for this, however unlikely we laugh at that notion.

The california state is going to sue VW based on per vehicle fine. That is guaranteed. The amount per offence was in the low thousands. The rest of the US will follow suit.

There is genuine concern as to the resale value of these existing cars and a class action suit is coming based on advertisement of best resale value which no longer exists. Silly we say but it is gathering pace.

The new Passat was to be launched next week here and is effectively a dead duck. Untouchable regardless of engine. That costs VW money. There is no seperation here between which engine is the problem. All VW's are lumped with this bad perception regardless of petrol or diesel.

To put all this in perspective. I had a look for giggles at the new Mustang. 2014 special is 500bhp plus and is road legal. The 2015 special (very nice new dash) is 400bhp plus and is not yet road legal in california. It is very likely it will be. I am betting the average car here pumps out a lot of stuff that is not good for the body (not NOX of course) and nobody sees that as strange. They are telling the truth (appartently) about their emmisions. So it is all about perception.

5W30

Now I wonder if any other manufacturer is going to create a recall for some made up "issue" when in reality they are patching the ECU to remove such an emission cheat...

dr.fuzzenstein

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they're getting rid of it because of the ridiculously high cost of generating power, not from a think of the childers view

And its the most idiotic decision ever!
Now Germany will have to generate power from a crumbling, decrepit coal power station network, some of which burn "braunkohle", that's turf to you and me.
Throw wind into that, and you'll have a highly unstable grid. But of course that's only half the story, because Germany will simply very quietly purchase nuclear power from its neighbours.
The parallels to Ireland are almost spooky.

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...Now Germany will have to generate power from a crumbling, decrepit coal power station network, some of which burn "braunkohle"...

Achtung! Das Brokenhole ist burnen leik das Scheisser!!

Tea 1000

micosoft wrote: »

But they stopped becoming clean (as they claimed to be) overnight...

But people don't give a flying f**k about that unless it affects their pocket somehow.

JoeCole26 wrote: »

Do you reckon all this will have a knock-on effect to the price of new VW in the coming months/years. In the market for new VW but wondering if it is time to sit tight to see how all this pans out. I,myself, can't see it affecting price of new cars in a forecourt down the country.

I'd say if anything, there'll be a price increase. I'd buy now.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

Achtung! Das Brokenhole ist burnen leik das Scheisser!!

Das Paddy hat die richtig Idea! We do like zis.
The only thing missing is Germany making nuclear illegal and requesting the French to filter out all the electrons from the grid that came from nuclear. You think I'm joking? This was a request made by some Irish politician "doing something"
They'd be using the same electron sieves we are using, they filter out the nuclear British electrons, because they are slightly bigger.

Stallingrad

Tea 1000 wrote: »

But people don't give a flying f**k about that unless it affects their pocket somehow.

I'd say if anything, there'll be a price increase. I'd buy now.

I doubt that, if anything better deals may be coming as VW try to claw back any damaged market share. I doubt price will reduce, but expect free upgrades and other incentives.

ThisRegard

Caught on the radio a few minutes ago that BMW have confirmed they've been doing the same in Europe, can't find any online confirmation yet.

edit: should have known the BBC would have it on their live business news tracker
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/business-34292335

The German transport ministry has just this moment announced Volkswagen has admitted to cheating European emissions tests, Reuters reports.

two wheels good

josip wrote: »

It's good that VW dared to go against the Green Gospel then.
All that scare mongering about NOX...

Applauding VW for their deceipt and fraud? Jeez!

No scare-mongering involved. NOx are killers.
According to Newsnight last night approx5800 premature deaths per annum.

Stallingrad

ThisRegard wrote: »

Caught on the radio a few minutes ago that BMW have confirmed they've been doing the same in Europe, can't find any online confirmation yet.

Holy sheet, here we go!

jimgoose

ThisRegard wrote: »

Caught on the radio a few minutes ago that BMW have confirmed they've been doing the same in Europe, can't find any online confirmation yet...

http://www.cityam.com/225053/bmw-share-price-falls-amid-reports-its-emissions-exceeded-eu-limit

Atlantic Dawn

This to me is looking up there with someone making a false declaration as to the cc on the engine on their car for the cheaper tax, it's pure deception.

two wheels good

From an hour ago: Reuters/TheGuardian

BMW has denied using the ‘defeat devices’ used by VW to cut emissions during a test.
German trade magazine Auto Bild says the BMW X3 xDrive 20d exceeded the Euro 6 limits on nitrogen oxide emissions more than 11-fold in road tests by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT)

Auto Bild cites BMW as saying: “There is no function in BMWs for recognising exhaust cycles, and all exhaust systems remain active outside of exhaust cycles.”

Also:
European VW cars now implicated. And not just the 2.0L engines.

Germany’s transport minister, Alexander Dobrindt, has confirmed that Volkswagen vehicles containing software to fix emissions standards were sold across Europe. He told reporters in Berlin that:
“VW told us that in Europe too, vehicles with 1.6 and 2 litre diesel engines are affected by the manipulation.”

Alanstrainor

I know its definitely been said on this thread. But I bet they were all at it. Wait for the reports on other cars/engines to filter through. BMW now on the X3, but others will surely be the same. I'd wonder if this will be the turning point against diesels across Europe.

dr.fuzzenstein

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I know its definitely been said on this thread. But I bet they were all at it. Wait for the reports on other cars/engines to filter through. BMW now on the X3, but others will surely be the same. I'd wonder if this will be the turning point against diesels across Europe.

I'm practically blue in the face from saying it!

Going Forward

Sorry if it's already been covered, has it been explained how the software switched over?

It was my understanding that ECUs are checked in some states for eveidence of originality or tampering, were the ecus programmed to behave differently when accessed by non dealers?

Ron Burgundy II

How long do ye think it will be until we get an understanding of how many cars in Europe have been affected in particular models and years. I bought a 2011 2L Passat, but according to initial reports the only Passat affected by this scandal is the 2014-2015 model.

What kind of knock on will owners of affected cars suffer. Changes in Tax Rates, reduction in re sale value???

L1011

Going Forward wrote: »

Sorry if it's already been covered, has it been explained how the software switched over?

It was my understanding that ECUs are checked in some states for eveidence of originality or tampering, were the ecus programmed to behave differently when accessed by non dealers?

It would be possible to detect the test conditions fairly easily. Wheels spinning at a consistent speed, no turning, no torque demand variations, constant revs etc

Remember it needs to be replicable at periodic tests - or else you'd fail your first NCT equivalent hideously.

Going Forward

ThisRegard wrote: »

They stopped becoming clean as they claimed to be in America. People don't by diesel for their cleanliness.

But the power caused the problems which VW and others claimed to have solved.

Atlantic Dawn

Ron Burgundy II wrote: »

What kind of knock on will owners of affected cars suffer. Changes in Tax Rates, reduction in re sale value???

None, if they "fix" the software the existing vehicles on the road will pullute more so this won't be done. Tax rates won't change on what was already sold but they might have to reduce the CO2 bands on new sales as most diesels will move to the next band(s).

two wheels good

Going Forward wrote: »

Sorry if it's already been covered, has it been explained how the software switched over?

It was my understanding that ECUs are checked in some states for eveidence of originality or tampering, were the ecus programmed to behave differently when accessed by non dealers?

As I understand it the ECU detects the test conditions - rear wheels stationary, two contstant RPM ranges for a certain period, airbags turned off. So no need to change ECU. Just an extra software programme in every ECU.

Some reports mentions urea (as in a mini Bluetec systems ) being injected into exhaust. But this would be visible so I'm a bit puzzled/sceptical of this point

Special Circumstances

Ron Burgundy II wrote: »

What kind of knock on will owners of affected cars suffer. Changes in Tax Rates, reduction in re sale value???

We will do what the Germans tell us to do. We wouldn't even be driving diesels if they had decided that promoting diesels didn't give them an advantage over manufacturers from outside Europe.

By the time some one of our influential politicians has perhaps realised there might be something up here, Germany will have told us their cars are "definitely clean now". We will accept this blindly and continue to implement really poor testing of diesel emissions. Because CO2.

ThisRegard

Special Circumstances wrote: »

We will do what the Germans tell us to do. We wouldn't even be driving diesels if they had decided that promoting diesels didn't give them an advantage over manufacturers from outside Europe.

By the time some one of our influential politicians has perhaps realised there might be something up here, Germany will have told us their cars are "definitely clean now". We will accept this blindly and continue to implement really poor testing of diesel emissions. Because CO2.

Seriously, this whole the Germans tells us what to do, not just in motors but everything, is pretty tiresome, and was never even the slightest bit amusing.

moleyv

I'd say when a manufacturer comes out with a new car, their rivals buy one and pull it apart, software included, to see if they can learn something.

One of them started it, and I won't be surprised if a load were doing it.

Special Circumstances

ThisRegard wrote: »

Seriously, this whole the Germans tells us what to do, not just in motors but everything, is pretty tiresome, and was never even the slightest bit amusing.

Tiresome, unamusing. Boohoo.

How did we end up with emissions standards that suit the engines that EU manufacturers are better at than other manufacturers. Why such a disparity between the emissions regulations? Why such a disparity in diesel engines as percentage of all personal vehicles?

As far as I know, the USA and Japan work on the same basic principles of physics and chemistry, all things being equal we should have reached similar conclusions on emissions without outside influence from vested interests?

I guess it's impossible in your mind that the EU worked hand in hand with major EU industries to hand them an advantage on their own turf?

Alanstrainor

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'm practically blue in the face from saying it!

Reading long threads is tough! :P

josip

two wheels good wrote: »

Applauding VW for their deceipt and fraud? Jeez!

No scare-mongering involved. NOx are killers.
According to Newsnight last night approx5800 premature deaths per annum.

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