EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Markcheese

So with the vehicle recall that VW are going doing in the states are they going to have to reset all the cars to run within the emissions regime - ie. 40 times less co2 but gutless and undrivable -
Is that going to happen in Europe too ?
There'll be blood on the streets I tells ya !!

samih

Markcheese wrote: »

ie. 40 times less co2

They won't as this issue is not about CO2. It's about NOx.

Tea 1000

Conor20 wrote: »

Good article in Bloomberg about this: VW Scandal Will Speed Up Diesel's Demise Hopefully!

Not that great of an article. The eGolf outsells the Tesla Model S? Sure it's a third of the price. Of course it would.
And the Europeans have the technology for hybrids, but Toyota are best at it so far, and BMW now have access to their technology.

pred racer

This story is great, it just runs n runs.
Anybody who didn't at least suspect there was a fiddle on (and not just by VW) needs to have a look at some beach front property I've got in Tipperary

And just personally, I hope that every vw diesel ever sold has to be recalled, de tuned until it will get it's claimed emissions and then have a big box welded over the ecu and obd ports :D

tanko

Maybe this has been covered already but does anyone know which years cars are affected by this?
Will it affect how VW cars are tested in the NCT in future?

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote: »

MPG figures in most cases are well off. Most people can't reach the claimed figures.

I have one of the Passat diesels hit by the pending recall here in California, being as I am a rebel by US standards. (Don't worry, I also own a petrol V8 :P) I don't know about in Europe, but EPA figures tend to be a bit low. The Passat TDi is rated at some 45mpg (USG) highway, I not unusually hit 51-52 on a motorway cruise, and I in no way hypermile. Barring extended range vehicles like Tesla, unaffordable for me, electrics are not an option due to my commute distance. Hybrids don't work efficiently in freeway driving. Diesel's my only option, and I'm very pleased by the consumption I get.

I am waiting to see just what the recall does and its effect. If it drops economy to, say 40-45mpg in reality, I can probably live with it, though I'm sure I'll throw my hat in on the class action suit. Resale value was a criterion for me when I bought it. I'm not too pushed about performance, this is a working car, not a fun one. The boot is massive, so I could, I guess, lose a cubic foot for more urea if that's the solution to keep me going 10,000 miles between services. Again, though, join in the class action.

For all the brouhaha, the fundamental car itself still is sound. I'd want a damned good reason to turn it back in for a refund simply because there is no really viable alternative, and I honestly doubt that'll be offered anyway.

Of note, the BMW diesels passed the emissions tests in real-world testing. This isn't the death knell for diesel, scientifically speaking.

jimgoose wrote: »

They've been using it since 2008, since regulations necessitated it. However, the four-cylinder 2l units, considered small engines in the USA, did not use it. VW maintained that they were capable of meeting the regulations using the DPF alone, with regeneration. This would have smelled of bullshít to anyone versed in this stuff, as DPF cooking via valve-timing and/or injection tweakery sends NOx production shooting up, but there you go. :pac:

Eh? I'm running a 2.0l 4-banger. It uses urea/adblu

robtri

So IF VW has lied about the numbers in the US, more than likely similiar over here...
are the governments like Ireland going to be quids in soon..
well anyone who owns a VW there CO2 emission numbers are going up soon... so will your cheap ass tax.......

god if BMW have been at it .. think of all them 520d.....

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

So IF VW has lied about the numbers in the US, more than likely similiar over here...
are the governments like Ireland going to be quids in soon..
well anyone who owns a VW there CO2 emission numbers are going up soon... so will your cheap ass tax.......

god if BMW have been at it .. think of all them 520d.....

This is about NOX, its nothing to do with C02, BMW passed the tailpipe test in the US

There is no need for VW to change anything in Europe

Lissavane

Good coverage here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11881819/Volkswagen-live-VW-issues-profit-warning-sets-aside-6.5bn.html

Blazer

11 million cars worldwide affected..that's a hell of a number.
Will be interesting to see if there's a total recall and if it will affect power

Lissavane

Blazer wrote: »

11 million cars worldwide affected..that's a hell of a number.
Will be interesting to see if there's a total recall and if it will affect power

I read an article earlier that indicated that the adjustments needed to meet California emission standards on recalled vehicles would both reduce power and increase fuel consumption.

It seems the engine in question in the US is a 2.0L TDI. I think this is different from the 1.9 TDI that's common here. But maybe VW were up to tricks with all of their diesels.

josip

Not sure about VW but when we were buying our Octavia this year, the garage told us that they would sell one 2.0l TDi for every 19 1.6TDi s.
The current 2.0l (150PS) is a new version that I think first appeared last year. The previous 2.0l developed 140PS.
I think the old VW 1.9TDi PD (which we had in our last Octavia) is replaced by a more stressed 1.6TDi CR in the current engine range.
Open to correction.

Lissavane

josip wrote: »

Not sure about VW but when we were buying our Octavia this year, the garage told us that they would sell one 2.0l TDi for every 19 1.6TDi s.
The current 2.0l (150PS) is a new version that I think first appeared last year. The previous 2.0l developed 140PS.
I think the old VW 1.9TDi PD (which we had in our last Octavia) is replaced by a more stressed 1.6TDi CR in the current engine range.
Open to correction.

Wikipedia indcates that VW has a bewildering range of diesel engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines

The article I read mentioned the EA188 and EA288 as the culprits in the US.

Even if VW and other manufacturers have done no deliberate wrong in Europe, this thing is going to have huge ramifications for diesel car use worldwide. It has highlighted the level of NOx pollution which had already lead Boris Johnson, not a noted green leftie, to consider a ban on diesel vehicles in central London.

gctest50

it must be something in the water over there - Sigmar here is mixing up Switzerland and Germany

Sigmar Gabriel, the German vice-chancellor and economy minister said the damage had to be repaired as quickly as possible:
'Made in Germany’ is a worldwide synonym for quality. I do not think that this is permanent and fundamental damage to German industry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11881819/Volkswagen-live-VW-issues-profit-warning-sets-aside-6.5bn.html#update-20150922-1500

josip

briskoda.net says that the following engines are affected

EA 189, 2.0 CR TDI engines since 2009 till 2014, Common rails diesels EURO5 and EURO5+

Lissavane

josip wrote: »

briskoda.net says that the following engines are affected

EA 189, 2.0 CR TDI engines since 2009 till 2014, Common rails diesels EURO5 and EURO5+

Thanks for that. I wonder how that translates into engines we might know in VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat products in Ireland.

Manic Moran

josip wrote: »

briskoda.net says that the following engines are affected

EA 189, 2.0 CR TDI engines since 2009 till 2014, Common rails diesels EURO5 and EURO5+

The EA288 is affected as well (The one on my 2015 Passat), though apparently it has a good chance of passing even without the cheat software. Looks like they may have just left it in by inertia.

Boskowski

I don't know if this has been said here yet but I just read in a German newspaper how they're actually doing it.
Its apparently not all that sophisticated. Or maybe it is, what do you guys think?

They say that the software simply uses the wheel speed sensors to decide that its on a rolling road as there would only be 2 wheels turning instead of 4. In which case the software activates something in the injection system thats adds a substance into the fuel mix which dramatically lowers the emissions. Apparently that substance is some form of urea which is a term I hadn't heard before but it seems VW are literally taking the piss.

Seth Brundle

mickdw

Boskowski wrote: »

I don't know if this has been said here yet but I just read in a German newspaper how they're actually doing it.
Its apparently not all that sophisticated. Or maybe it is, what do you guys think?

They say that the software simply uses the wheel speed sensors to decide that its on a rolling road as there would only be 2 wheels turning instead of 4. In which case the software activates something in the injection system thats adds a substance into the fuel mix which dramatically lowers the emissions. Apparently that substance is some form of urea which is a term I hadn't heard before but it seems VW are literally taking the piss.

I doubt it's that basic.
I actually used that very explaination when trying to explain the whole cheat to my mother - saying for example if the test was done on rollers like the nct where only front wheels were running, the car could have program built in to change engine mode to super efficiency when it sensed only 2 wheels spinning.
I really doubt it would be as silly as that. To be quite honest, if it was that basic, everyone at vw should be shot for treating the public and governments like idiots.

jimgoose

Manic Moran wrote: »

...Eh? I'm running a 2.0l 4-banger. It uses urea/adblu

Yes, that'd be a post-2012 model, right?

dr.fuzzenstein

When the recall comes, I suspect it would be better not to go. I suspect it would involve a 'clean' version of the software with significant loss of performance.

road_high

Actually secretly pleased to see VW get some come uppence...they acted like bullies with their alliance with Suzuki and doggedly refused to sell back their stake when the thing went sour (VW allegedly not sharing technologies as agreed etc).
The likes of Fiat, PSA and Renault in Europe must be delighted so long as the scandal doesn't affect their cars as they have been under severe pressure a few years back from VW aggressive approach to market share, particularly in their home markets.

Special Circumstances

This is genius lads, not only will the fools drive around slowly gassing each other, they will feel smug and self righteous while doing it!! We'll sell it to them as being CLEAN!!! [Guffaws, knee slapping] No really, they'll lap it up, sure they'll believe anything we say.

Boskowski

mickdw wrote: »

I doubt it's that basic.
I actually used that very explaination when trying to explain the whole cheat to my mother - saying for example if the test was done on rollers like the nct where only front wheels were running, the car could have program built in to change engine mode to super efficiency when it sensed only 2 wheels spinning.
I really doubt it would be as silly as that. To be quite honest, if it was that basic, everyone at vw should be shot for treating the public and governments like idiots.

Well, I'm not making this up. This is obviously a big thing over in the Fatherland and I have this from a very reputable mainstream newspaper and they were saying this was the animated explanation given in what would be Germany's equivalent to the RTE 9 o'clock news.

If you think about it why would it have to be any more sophisticated? I'm a software engineer myself and I thought about it and it ticks all the boxes for a reliable enough software decision as far as I can see.

dr.fuzzenstein

road_high wrote: »

Actually secretly pleased to see VW get some come uppence...they acted like bullies with their alliance with Suzuki and doggedly refused to sell back their stake when the thing went sour (VW allegedly not sharing technologies as agreed etc).
The likes of Fiat, PSA and Renault in Europe must be delighted so long as the scandal doesn't affect their cars as they have been under severe pressure a few years back from VW aggressive approach to market share, particularly in their home markets.

They are not delighted, they have brown sauce running out the bottom of their slacks because they are next. It was mentioned on BBC news yesterday, VW are not the only ones at it, they're just the first to get caught.
Honestly "car manufacturers fiddling emissions test" is a news story like "dog bites man"
Seriously, I can't see how anyone is surprised at this.

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...Seriously, I can't see how anyone is surprised at this.

Shocking, deeply shocking... unconscionable breach of trust, corporate responsibility, transparency, disgraceful carry-on, yadda-yadda-yadda.

Leroy42

Can I ask a question? Why not just use the software all the time? Why only use it to pass the test and then turn it off?

I am assuming that it makes such a negative effect on performance that nobody would buy the cars anymore, is that it?

The whole area of emissions, it appears as useful as the MPG stats. Totally meaningless and no real attempt by the authorities to police it properly.

The only reason this was happening in the US is that their test is much stricter than EU, no real need for them to cheat in EU.

I do agree that this story is hardly surprising, but it really shows how easy the car companies have it.

The only real solution to this is that governments should be allowed to select a range of cars and models that have been on the road for varying number of years and test them in the real world.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

Shocking, deeply shocking... unconscionable breach of trust, corporate responsibility, transparency, disgraceful carry-on, yadda-yadda-yadda.

Kein Schmoken, kein poken!

lotmc

There have been cases before the courts where individuals who deliberately underpaid VRT on imported cars were convicted and given custodial sentences.

Here we have a German company doing this, on literally an industrial scale. I can't wait for the Fraud Squad and the Revenue Commissioners to do their dawn raid on VW's offices.

The fraud on the Irish state here is massive. Assume every VW has been fraudulently declared in a lower VRT category, and hence a lower tax band, due to the fraud. The VRT underpaid will total approx. €20m per annum, over the last 5 years (?).

Then there is the annual road tax, which is also underpaid / wrong Band due to the VW fraud. This needs to be fixed. Customers must be indemnified by VW over this, or better still if VW just pay it, over the expected life of all the cars. Another €5m per annum, for the (say) 12 year life cycle of VW's.

With the normal penalties for VRT fraud and interest, the total payable by VW to the Irish state will be in the region of €250M.

Or will this just be seen as a normal German theft from little old Ireland, and nothing done about it?