EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Special Circumstances

moleyv wrote: »

I'd say when a manufacturer comes out with a new car, their rivals buy one and pull it apart, software included, to see if they can learn something.

One of them started it, and I won't be surprised if a load were doing it.

The problem is the testing more than anything else. If the testing reflected real life and the cars were optimised for that test, every one wins*.

Unfortunately it's completely artificial but has a huge impact on the sales of vehicles. And the subsequent testing of emissions never ever tests for nox or a functioning DPF.

*terms and conditions apply, winning by driving a diesel can be regarded as equivalent to winning an Internet argument.

ThisRegard

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Tiresome, unamusing. Boohoo.

How did we end up with emissions standards that suit the engines that EU manufacturers are better at than other manufacturers. Why such a disparity between the emissions regulations? Why such a disparity in diesel engines as percentage of all personal vehicles?

As far as I know, the USA and Japan work on the same basic principles of physics and chemistry, all things being equal we should have reached similar conclusions on emissions without outside influence from vested interests?

I guess it's impossible in your mind that the EU worked hand in hand with major EU industries to hand them an advantage on their own turf?

Give me time to reply, I'm awaiting the mail from Germany to arrive to tell me what I'm having for lunch.

alias no.9

ThisRegard wrote: »

Give me time to reply, I'm awaiting the mail from Germany to arrive to tell me what I'm having for lunch.

It's bratwurst and sauerkraut now get back to work

dr.fuzzenstein

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Tiresome, unamusing. Boohoo.
...stuff...

Why do you describe your own post?

CreepingDeath

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

This to me is looking up there with someone making a false declaration as to the cc on the engine on their car for the cheaper tax, it's pure deception.

Maybe the tax office should retest all 2008+ cars for Co2 emissions and tax them accordingly.

* I say as I have a 2007 car taxed on engine size not Co2

Stallingrad

I hope VW get hammered from a height for this. If large multinationals play God then they better be prepared for the consequences. We ridicule America for some things but they are good at this stuff, and they have teeth when it come to corruption. It makes you wonder what the rest are up to.

pippip

It will be interesting to see in a years time the fallout from this.

Between direct government penalties, and legal fees involved.
Customer law suits, again legal fees.
Drop in sales from people just not wanting the VW brand
And general drop in sales from people not wanting to purchase a VW car with uncertainty about it.

I know if I was purchasing a new car now I would have reservations about going near VW were as before I wouldn't. I know it will probably result in nothing but when its such a large amount of your own money you would always have doubts.

Headshot

Lads what if your car is affected by this?

noelf

German transport minister has said today Europe is effected aswell .. includes 1.6 TDI engines and it is not known how many of the 11 million vehicles were sold in Europe .. Bought a new 1.6 TDI in july my fourth Golf absolutely disgusted in how i was deceived over the last 5 years .. can anyone tell me where i could have it tested before volkswagen gets their hands on it ???

myshirt

Wait until it comes out about Herbie The Love Bug. Based on a true story my arse. My childhood is ruined.

jimgoose

noelf wrote: »

German transport minister has said today Europe is effected aswell .. includes 1.6 TDI engines and it is not known how many of the 11 million vehicles were sold in Europe .. Bought a new 1.6 TDI in july my fourth Golf absolutely disgusted in how i was deceived over the last 5 years .. can anyone tell me where i could have it tested before volkswagen gets their hands on it ???

http://munstertoolco.ie/sykes-pickavant-sp9550-diesel-5-gas-analyser.html

Tea 1000

pippip wrote: »

It will be interesting to see in a years time the fallout from this.

Between direct government penalties, and legal fees involved.
Customer law suits, again legal fees.
Drop in sales from people just not wanting the VW brand
And general drop in sales from people not wanting to purchase a VW car with uncertainty about it.

I know if I was purchasing a new car now I would have reservations about going near VW were as before I wouldn't. I know it will probably result in nothing but when its such a large amount of your own money you would always have doubts.

Why? How does it affect you? Pick the car you like the best and buy it. The difference in emissions is tiny between them all anyway in the real world. Let what ever company that got caught cheating pay the fine and everything goes on like before.

This is like the Lance Armstrong story. They caught him, but the reality isn't that he was the only one on drugs, the reality is that they only caught him. The motor industry and their emissions is like the Olympics or Tour de France. They're all cheating, some get caught.

MuppetCheck

noelf wrote: »

German transport minister has said today Europe is effected aswell .. includes 1.6 TDI engines and it is not known how many of the 11 million vehicles were sold in Europe .. Bought a new 1.6 TDI in july my fourth Golf absolutely disgusted in how i was deceived over the last 5 years .. can anyone tell me where i could have it tested before volkswagen gets their hands on it ???

The nox emissions out of the back are pretty low on the list of priorities to most buyers and owners. As it stands I wouldn't feel hard done by. Those aren't advertised anywhere and I bet that nobody looked them up before handing over their money.

Now if there was a software update or some such thing that meant the car was down on power or thirstier then you're going to feel hard done by. If it comes to it I'll be getting mine dyno'd before and after it.

Joe 90

colm_mcm wrote: »

What's crazy is that it's cheaper to buy oil/gas to heat your house. There is very little done to convert houses to using electricity.
This is a situation where you don't need charging pints, batteries, range anxiety etc. they can't even manage this, so how are we expected to drive electric cars without artificial incentives.

Nope, not crazy at all. You burn coal or oil, produce steam, drive a turbine, spin a generator and then transmit the leccy to the user.

A loss at every stage between the fire from burning the fuel and the electricity coming out of the wall. That, and of course the costs of the pwer companies, is the price difference.

It would in fact be muche GREENER to heat your house by feuel burned at the house rather than by fuel burned at the electricity power plant.

vintagevrs

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Why? How does it affect you? Pick the car you like the best and buy it.

The car is still the same car but this may very well have an impact on VW residuals if the brand takes a knock like this. People will be wary of buying VW because of a fear of the unknown reaction of the market. I too bought a Golf recently, and this is not going to help it's resale. Hopefully it will have zero impact.

L1011

Joe 90 wrote: »

It would in fact be muche GREENER to heat your house by feuel burned at the house rather than by fuel burned at the electricity power plant.

The electrical heater in your house will be 100% efficient (all electrical heaters are, its not like they can lose energy as heat now is it). The transmission network losses are minimal. Your oil or gas boiler is not going to be as efficient as the power plants one. Oil has to be delivered to you.

Its not "greener" if you mean carbon emission wise. Its often *cheaper*, but that's a different story.

fergiesfolly

MuppetCheck wrote: »

The nox emissions out of the back are pretty low on the list of priorities to most buyers and owners. As it stands I wouldn't feel hard done by. Those aren't advertised anywhere and I bet that nobody looked them up before handing over their money.

Now if there was a software update or some such thing that meant the car was down on power or thirstier then you're going to feel hard done by. If it comes to it I'll be getting mine dyno'd before and after it.

But, isn't that exactly what could happen.
If the cars don't meet regulation standards, the easiest fix is to update the software to bring emissions into line.
They won't scrap perfectly good engines or cars, when tweeking some code will fix the problem.
The cars may be down on power and fuel efficiency, but they'll make the emissions requirements and that's all the governments will care about.
The class action suit against VW from consumers will be huge and this(increased running costs) I think, will be the cornerstone of it.

MuppetCheck

fergiesfolly wrote: »

But, isn't that exactly what could happen.
If the cars don't meet regulation standards, the easiest fix is to update the software to bring emissions into line.
They won't scrap perfectly good engines or cars, when tweeking some code will fix the problem.
The cars may be down on power and fuel efficiency, but they'll make the emissions requirements and that's all the governments will care about.
The class action suit against VW from consumers will be huge and this(increased running costs) I think, will be the cornerstone of it.

That's how I see it going down if they actually bother to do something about it. Fines in lieu of this might also happen.

If it does happen the fun will begin, its how they handle that part is what will potentially do the most damage to the brand. As it stands I can see the actual deceit blowing over in Europe at least.

Joe 90

L1011 wrote: »

The electrical heater in your house will be 100% efficient (all electrical heaters are, its not like they can lose energy as heat now is it). The transmission network losses are minimal. Your oil or gas boiler is not going to be as efficient as the power plants one. Oil has to be delivered to you.

Its not "greener" if you mean carbon emission wise. Its often *cheaper*, but that's a different story.

It did say the losses in getting the energy to the plug in your house spcificly because electric heating is in fact 100% efficient desireable process that I can think of.
Its cheaper because you are getting most of the enrgy from the fuel you buy rather than waht is left over after all the little losses which add up to a big loss. Transmission losses are only a small part of the losses.

L1011

Joe 90 wrote: »

It did say the losses in getting the energy to the plug in your house spcificly because electric heating is in fact 100% efficient desireable process that I can think of.
Its cheaper because you are getting most of the enrgy from the fuel you buy rather than waht is left over after all the little losses which add up to a big loss. Transmission losses are only a small part of the losses.

All the losses combined are still less than the vastly lower efficiency of a home boiler over a power station boiler.

"transmission" of gas or oil to your home is neither loss-free nor carbon-neutral, at that.

ScouseMouse

Just reading the RTE news and it appears that the same technology VW used to hide the true emissions in the US, was also used in europe. Also, there is a question mark over whether or not other manufacturers are also at it, who also have 1.6l and 2.0l engines.

It got me thinking. I drive a 2l Mondeo diesel. If it turns out other companies were at this crack as well, could it affect us in Ireland, as post 2008 cars pay car tax based on emissions? :mad:

Just a thought!

Ron Burgundy II

ScouseMouse wrote: »

Just reading the RTE news and it appears that the same technology VW used to hide the true emissions in the US, was also used in europe. Also, there is a question mark over whether or not other manufacturers are also at it, who also have 1.6l and 2.0l engines.

It got me thinking. I drive a 2l Mondeo diesel. If it turns out other companies were at this crack as well, could it affect us in Ireland, as post 2008 cars pay car tax based on emissions? :mad:

Just a thought!

It's being discussed on this thread as we speak http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057495903

Drummerboy08

The system cheated nox emissions in the US , not co2 so I can't see how it would affect motor tax here?

At least that's how I understand it.

ironclaw

Is there any technical discussion as to how this was achieved? Or was it mapped from factory and then reset when it hit the dealers?

Joe 90

L1011 wrote: »

All the losses combined are still less than the vastly lower efficiency of a home boiler over a power station boiler.

"transmission" of gas or oil to your home is neither loss-free nor carbon-neutral, at that.

According to a Dutch study, Australia, China, France, Germany, India, Japan, Nordic countries, South Korea, United Kingdom, Ireland, and United States are responsible for 65% of worldwide fossil fuel-fired power generation. The average efficiencies of power generation are 35% for coal, 45% for natural gas and 38% for oil-fired power generation. What this means is that 35% of the energy in coal results in electric power, the rest goes "up the stack" as heat. the highest efficiencies observed are 42% for coal, 52% for natural gas and 45% for oil-fired power generation.

To conform with building regulations, since 1 April 2007 oil-fired boilers must have a Sedbuk efficiency of 86% or more (unless an exception is allowed). In practice, only condensing oil-fired boilers can meet this efficiency requirement. Typically, a new condensing oil-fired boiler will have an efficiency of 92% to 93%, compared with 85% for a new non-condensing boiler and 60% to 70% for older systems.

So for oil the best a power sataion can do is about 45% and the best a modern domestic oil boiler can do is about 90%.

The 90% is heat in the house while the 45% is electricity at the power station.

CJhaughey

ironclaw wrote: »

Is there any technical discussion as to how this was achieved? Or was it mapped from factory and then reset when it hit the dealers?

The ECU used different parameters to work out when it was being tested,
Rear wheel speed = Zero
Engine revs held at two constant speeds
Steering input = Zero
Maybe more ?

Based on the above parameters the ECU would then enter a low NoX emission programme until the above parameters changed.

galwaytt

Originally Posted by noelf View Post

German transport minister has said today Europe is effected aswell .. includes 1.6 TDI engines and it is not known how many of the 11 million vehicles were sold in Europe .. Bought a new 1.6 TDI in july my fourth Golf absolutely disgusted in how i was deceived over the last 5 years .. can anyone tell me where i could have it tested before volkswagen gets their hands on it ???

...jeebus, nearly spat out my lunchtime Riesling over my foie gras when I read that: you're telling me you bought a car based on examination of it's NOx values ??

Sorry, not buying it (sic).........

galwaytt

Joe 90 wrote: »

Nope, not crazy at all. You burn coal or oil, produce steam, drive a turbine, spin a generator and then transmit the leccy to the user.

A loss at every stage between the fire from burning the fuel and the electricity coming out of the wall. That, and of course the costs of the pwer companies, is the price difference.

It would in fact be muche GREENER to heat your house by feuel burned at the house rather than by fuel burned at the electricity power plant.

Sorry for the hijack - why not just build a house that doesn't need a boiler in the first place - it's not that difficult........

Lellostag

Headshot wrote: »

Lads what if your car is affected by this?

Well, it's not really though, not yet anyway. Or are you bringing it with you to the US? Over there VW has been given a year to devise a fix anyway, and only then should people expect a recall notice...

Most likely nothing will happen here in Ireland.

Headshot

Lellostag wrote: »

Well, it's not really though, not yet anyway. Or are you bringing it with you to the US?

No im referring to the latest developments in Europe here. I have a 142 Seat 1.6 which is supposed to be one of the affected engines so im just curious to know if my car was affected, what would VW do.