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Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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    #8012
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Seems like you're not the only one thinking this way
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doctor-fears-on-abortion-pause-37332018.html

    I reckon the waiting period was part of the broader 'don't frighten the horses' approach that (reasonably at the time) thought necessary to getting repeal past 'middle Ireland.' If they knew the referendum result was such a foregone conclusion I doubt it would have been proposed but it looks like they're stuck with it now...

    The waiting period may save many lives. I think we should be very grateful for it.


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    #8013
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,017 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I expect that, as ever, they'll quietly move their previously unassailable barriers of what they are actually opposed to, and just set them up again a little further back and act as though that's what they were fighting against all along.

    IOW their new battle will be all about conscientious objection.

    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    The waiting period may save many lives. I think we should be very grateful for it.

    QED. :D


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    #8014
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    The waiting period may save many lives. I think we should be very grateful for it.

    I think the time it takes for a woman to make the decision to have an abortion is enough waiting. Making her hang on another 3 days is an insult to her intelligence and just makes her vulnerable to pro life bullies.


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    #8015
    Under His Eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Under His Eye


    Pickets on abortion clinics and the harassment of the people attending/working at said clinics will be the no sides next move.


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    #8016
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    volchitsa wrote: »
    QED. :D

    Or maybe it will be fighting pushes to normalise post birth abortion ie legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.


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    #8017
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think the time it takes for a woman to make the decision to have an abortion is enough waiting. Making her hang on another 3 days is an insult to her intelligence and just makes her vulnerable to pro life bullies.

    Two year waiting list for urgent cataract surgery is ok in Ireland, but a three day wait for elective abortion taking anyway someones life is an insult :pac: :pac::pac:


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    #8018
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,017 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Or maybe it will be fighting pushes to normalise post birth abortion ie legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.

    The euthanasia debate is completely unrelated to abortion.

    Not only did those countries with child euthanasia laws bring them in as extensions of their euthanasia laws not abortion laws but it would be perfectly possible for Ireland to bring in similar laws on child euthanasia with the 8th still in existence.

    Because they are based on relieving unbearable pain for children with a hopeless prognosis, not on a woman's right not to be pregnant.


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    #8019
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Or maybe it will be fighting pushes to normalise post birth abortion ie legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.

    Sorry, what exactly is a post birth abortion? Or did you just make up a hyperbolic term to create a reaction?

    You lost. Get over it.


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    #8020
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,020 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Under His Eye wrote: »
    Pickets on abortion clinics and the harassment of the people attending/working at said clinics will be the no sides next move.

    Well it might be if there were going to be any 'abortion clinics'...


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    #8021
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Sorry, what exactly is a post birth abortion? Or did you just make up a hyperbolic term to create a reaction?

    You lost. Get over it.

    eh it exists. Do your research.


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    #8022
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Nothing of substance they can do about the legislation. Vast majority of TDs are committed to supporting the proposals set out by Simon Harris before the referendum. I suspect they'll barely even bother lobbying.

    They've already been busy sending leaflets/letters out since the ref outcome
    Under His Eye wrote: »
    Pickets on abortion clinics and the harassment of the people attending/working at said clinics will be the no sides next move.

    way to tackle that is have the procedures in normal hospitals, are they going to picket every hospital...unlikely.

    Of course if they do try say picket the big one's in Dublin then exclusion zones will need to be put in place


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    #8023
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,017 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    eh it exists. Do your research.

    No it doesn't. Putting words together doesn't make something a thing.

    Those invisible pink unicorns are there to prove my point. :)


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    #8024
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The euthanasia debate is completely unrelated to abortion.

    Not only did those countries with child euthanasia laws bring them in as extensions of their euthanasia laws not abortion laws but it would be perfectly possible for Ireland to bring in similar laws on child euthanasia with the 8th still in existence.

    Because they are based on relieving unbearable pain for children with a hopeless prognosis, not on a woman's right not to be pregnant.

    I didn't say the Eight Amendment gave protections to born kids. First it was about choice. Then about 'relieving suffering'.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    not on a woman's right not to be pregnant.
    There is no right for a parent to cease being a parent. Ludicrous. Tragically there will be a law permitting killing of unborn kids. But not a right for parents not to be parents.


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    #8025
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    eh it exists. Do your research.

    You made the claim, its your job to prove its not false.

    Now back it up with proper verified data from a reliable none bias source.
    Of course, if you refuse to do this or don't provide a reliable source then we can all agree you just made a false claim....otherwise known as a lie :)


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    #8026
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    volchitsa wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Putting words together doesn't make something a thing.

    Those invisible pink unicorns are there to prove my point. :)

    I repeat there are circumstances where killing an infant in the Netherlands is legally permitted. You can apologise now for mocking.

    It is tiring how many times the pro aborts get their facts mixed up.


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    #8027
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,020 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You made the claim, its your job to prove its not false.

    Now back it up with proper verified data from a reliable none bias source.

    Or else it's another one for this list:

    tumblr_mc9excbgZw1rsc4uqo1_500.png


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    #8028
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    eh it exists. Do your research.

    Please back your claim up with a link or I'm afraid you are telling lies.

    You're flogging a dead horse anyway. The majority of the country agreed the 8th needed to go. Its now gone. Lamenting about alleged "post birth abortions" is pointless.


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    #8029
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,017 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I didn't say the Eight Amendment gave protections to born kids. First it was about choice. Then about 'relieving suffering'.
    Nope, you're conflating two different things. It's simple really. No law on euthanasia anywhere in the world is based on a right to abortion.

    You may as well say giving women the right to vote has led them to want a right to abortion. Actually you'd have a better argument linking those two than abortion and euthanasia.
    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    There is no right for a parent to cease being a parent. Ludicrous. Tragically there will be a law permitting killing of unborn kids. But not a right for parents not to be parents.
    What do you think adoption is, if not a right not to be a parent?


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    #8030
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You made the claim, its your job to prove its not false.

    Now back it up with proper verified data from a reliable none bias source.
    Of course, if you refuse to do this or don't provide a reliable source then we can all agree you just made a false claim....otherwise known as a lie :)

    Jotkowitz, Alan B., and Shimon Glick. "The Groningen protocol: another perspective." Journal of medical ethics 32.3 (2006): 157

    There you have it. An example of why we must not lose track of individualism. A commitment to individualism is the foundation of my pro life values.


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    #8031
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Please back your claim up with a link or I'm afraid you are telling lies.

    You're flogging a dead horse anyway. The majority of the country agreed the 8th needed to go. Its now gone. Lamenting about alleged "post birth abortions" is pointless.

    ah now Susieblue, you are forgetting a few important things.

    First off, whataboutery is very important and An_Toirpin is doing that perfectly. Next off, killing, murdering and stuff like that. So you are wrong.

    An_Toirpin is right because they said so, no need for any evidence to backup anything they say.

    :pac::pac:


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    #8032
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I repeat there are circumstances where killing an infant in the Netherlands is legally permitted. You can apologise now for mocking.

    It is tiring how many times the pro aborts get their facts mixed up.

    That isn't a post birth abortion. You are calling it that does not make it so. Using emotive language to manipulate a reaction does not make your point more valid or pertinent.

    You are exploiting tragic circumstances in a different country to suit your viewpoint.

    Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning infants are not aborted "post birth" in the Netherlands. Stop telling lies.


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    #8033
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,017 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    I repeat there are circumstances where killing an infant in the Netherlands is legally permitted. You can apologise now for mocking.
    There are, and they are unrelated to the abortion debate, and are based solely on an extension of euthanasia laws for the terminally ill.
    It is tiring how many times the pro aborts get their facts mixed up.

    I'm not mixed up at all. I'm right and you are either wrong or lying.
    Not that child euthanasia doesn't exist, I know it does, but in linking it to abortion - that's a lie.


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    #8034
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Nope, you're conflating two different things. It's simple really. No law on euthanasia anywhere in the world is based on a right to abortion.

    You may as well say giving women the right to vote has led them to want a right to abortion. Actually you'd have a better argument linking those two than abortion and euthanasia.


    What do you think adoption is, if not a right not to be a parent?

    You are just repeating you own misunderstanding. I didn't say that euthanasia that. I said that fighting euthanasia, especially forced euthanasia will be featuring in the prolifes movement future.


    Arguing that women's right to vote led to legal abortion is a farce of an argument. The prolife moment is dominated by women. All of the peer review study of abortion views shows that gender has no bearing on what people people choose to align with.


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    #8035
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,020 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Cabaal wrote: »
    They've already been busy sending leaflets/letters out since the ref outcome

    I find that a bit surprising, but I guess it doesn't take much effort to send a boilerplate leaflet to a mailing list of TDs, including Ruth Coppinger, Brid Smith etc.


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    #8036
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Its extremely amusing to see the same scaremongering shock tactics being used again. Nobody believed them the first time round in the lead up to the referendum, no one is going to believe them now.


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    #8037
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    [...] legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.
    I'm not sure whether you mean legalized pedophilia or legalized child euthanasia.

    In any case, both topics are unrelated to abortion - if you'd like to open up a thread on whatever it is you're talking about, please feel free to go ahead. Note that you will be expected to back up assertions you make in that thread, just as you are in this one.


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    #8038
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    That isn't a post birth abortion. You are calling it that does not make it so. Using emotive language to manipulate a reaction does not make your point more valid or pertinent.

    You are exploiting tragic circumstances in a different country to suit your viewpoint.

    Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning infants are not aborted "post birth" in the Netherlands. Stop telling lies.

    LOL. Nice changing the goal posts with the insertion of 'Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning. '

    Abort means to end. Abortion is a vague term that mean many things in the medical context and to apply pedantic meaning to it is pointless and false.


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    #8039
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    LOL. Nice changing the goal posts with the insertion of 'Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning. '

    Abort means to end. Abortion is a vague term that mean many things in the medical context and to apply pedantic meaning to it is pointless and false.

    You're the one shifting goal posts.

    To clarify, are you suggesting that its legal for healthy women who give birth to healthy, full term babies to enuthanise/"abort" their children post birth, just because they feel like it?
    If that isn't what you are saying, you are being deliberately misleading in order to make your point. You are telling lies.


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    #8040
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    An_Toirpin wrote: »
    Two year waiting list for urgent cataract surgery is ok in Ireland, but a three day wait for elective abortion taking anyway someones life is an insult :pac: :pac::pac:

    Oh I know all about waiting lists believe me but they tend to be because of financial reasons, lack of staff and services

    Not because we need to patronise women by making them wait just in case they don't really know their own mind.

    You're condescending response kinda just proves my point.


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    #8041
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    An Toirpin is at liberty not to have an abortion but until they and their ilk are busily campaigning for women to be fairly compensated for the contribution to society they make in having children and enabled to raise their children outside poverty, by which i mean a minimum income of at least 45ke net a year, they care neither about women nor about children. They do care about control, however.


This discussion has been closed.
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