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Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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    #8102
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I fully accept that 'mandates' for legislation under normal political circumstances are something of moveable feast; it's the exceptional circumstances that apply to this legislation that I'm trying to make a point about. Okay, the public didn't vote directly on the proposed legislation, but it was loudly flagged by the government as part of the referendum 'package'. To me the way it has been done means that the government is as close as you can get under our system to being under direct instruction from the electorate to legislate in a specific way.


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    #8103
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This means that the happenstances of whoever (party politicking) got chosen to sit on the Dail committee, and whatever measures were put in to get it through a vote of that committee, effectively trump the will of both the people and the Dail.

    For all we know the public is perfectly fine with no waiting period, but the Dail committee appeared to need a comfort blanket so in it went, and now we're stuck with it it seems.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #8104
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Today's cabinet decisions on what is going forward for legislation in respect of abortion and the protection of clients attending the medical facilities should be telling on the future of the minister.


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    #8105
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I see that Peter Fitzpatrick, the TD for Louth, has resigned the FG whip and left the party. His resignation letter states that for some time now, he's felt isolated within the party, that over the past 15 months he's not been given the same support from F/G that he, as a team-player, gave it, even when he did not agree with the party he supported it.

    Headlines of the Irish Times article covering his resignation - Louth TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from Fine Gael party. Anti-abortion deputy was member of Oireachtas committee on Eighth Amendment.

    Link.. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/louth-td-peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-from-fine-gael-party-1.3648207

    This resignation comes within days of the Govt release of its intended legislation in respect of abortion here.


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    #8106
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I see that Peter Fitzpatrick, the TD for Louth, has resigned the FG whip and left the party. His resignation letter states that for some time now, he's felt isolated within the party, that over the past 15 months he's not been given the same support from F/G that he, as a team-player, gave it, even when he did not agree with the party he supported it.

    Headlines of the Irish Times article covering his resignation - Louth TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from Fine Gael party. Anti-abortion deputy was member of Oireachtas committee on Eighth Amendment.

    Link.. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/louth-td-peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-from-fine-gael-party-1.3648207

    This resignation comes within days of the Govt release of its intended legislation in respect of abortion here.

    One down.


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    #8107
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Igotadose wrote: »
    One down.

    Likely to be one and only in Fine Gael. Peadar Toibin is the main other one to watch over this.


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    #8108
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    An illustration of the disarray of the pr-lifers that they're advocating craziness like this:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pro-life-activists-want-tds-to-place-obstacles-in-abortion-bill-hj9pd2qd8
    Anti-abortion campaigners are lobbying to make it mandatory for a burial to be held after a pregnancy is terminated.


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    #8109
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    An illustration of the disarray of the pr-lifers that they're advocating craziness like this:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pro-life-activists-want-tds-to-place-obstacles-in-abortion-bill-hj9pd2qd8

    They just cannot or will not accept that they lost and that the majority of people do not hold the same beliefs as them.


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    #8110
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    An illustration of the disarray of the pr-lifers that they're advocating craziness like this:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pro-life-activists-want-tds-to-place-obstacles-in-abortion-bill-hj9pd2qd8

    I think that came from the US anti-abortion rulebook whereby it was made compulsory in respect to abortion clinics there, in a legalistic "use of building" requirement move, all part of the harassment to stymie the clinics helping pregnant women in their hour of need - how the clinics must treat the "childs body" with respect.


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    #8111
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    An illustration of the disarray of the pr-lifers that they're advocating craziness like this:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pro-life-activists-want-tds-to-place-obstacles-in-abortion-bill-hj9pd2qd8

    So will "natural" miscarriages go in the medical waste or down the toilet like they do now?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #8112
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I think that came from the US anti-abortion rulebook whereby it was made compulsory in respect to abortion clinics there, in a legalistic "use of building" requirement move, all part of the harassment to stymie the clinics helping pregnant women in their hour of need - how the clinics must treat the "childs body" with respect.

    They do seem to follow the American pro-life playbook pretty closely, regardless of well a particular tactic suits the Irish context. Another example was Ronan Mullen calling for Irish women seeking abortions to be required to look at a scan of their foetus.


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    #8113
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,258 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    They do seem to follow the American pro-life playbook pretty closely, regardless of well a particular tactic suits the Irish context. Another example was Ronan Mullen calling for Irish women seeking abortions to be required to look at a scan of their foetus.


    this is not really a surprise given where most of their funding comes from.


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    #8114
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    So will "natural" miscarriages go in the medical waste or down the toilet like they do now?

    Hence the absurdity of the whole idea. Will IVF clinics disposing of 'surplus' embryos be required to construct a miniscule grave for each one?:rolleyes:


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    #8115
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Another example was Ronan Mullen calling for Irish women seeking abortions to be required to look at a scan of their foetus.
    Would Mr Mullen like to be forced to look at a picture of his poo every time he takes a dump?

    Don't answer that question!


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    #8116
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's bad enough that the poor guy has to look in the mirror at least once a day...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #8117
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Anti-abortion doctors have lobbied the government to remove any requirement to transfer women seeking a termination to another doctor.
    Dr Kirsten Fuller, spokesperson for Doctors for Freedom of Conscience estimates that "several hundred" doctors objected to this.
    She told the BBC: "We don't want to thwart the referendum result, we're just asking that we're given freedom of conscience in the truest form where we don't have to refer to another doctor."
    "Abortion is the ending of a human life and we don't want to partake in that in any sense."
    "We want to continue to give compassionate care to all mothers and their children," she said.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45731990


    Refer or gtf I'd say, but I was never one for diplomacy.


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    #8118
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Force them to name names. Who are the members of this group and where's their website


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    #8119
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Force them to name names. Who are the members of this group and where's their website

    An online list of GPS who refuse to provide the abortion pill might be useful actually...


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    #8120
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Force them to name names. Who are the members of this group and where's their website

    they can't be forced to give their names. they are entitled to remain anonymous if they wish.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #8121
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    end of the road wrote: »
    Igotadose wrote: »
    Force them to name names. Who are the members of this group and where's their website

    they can't be forced to give their names. they are entitled to remain anonymous if they wish.
    Then we must assume the organization doesn't exist. It's prolife ergo a bunch of liars.


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    #8122
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Then we must assume the organization doesn't exist. It's prolife ergo a bunch of liars.

    if the organisation does exist, it is pro-life, but not a bunch of liers

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #8123
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    end of the road wrote: »
    Igotadose wrote: »
    Then we must assume the organization doesn't exist. It's prolife ergo a bunch of liars.

    if the organisation does exist, it is pro-life, but not a bunch of liers
    Well until we know it exists, it's safe to assume it doesn't. And as we learned from the referendum, claims of numbers of gps or lawyers or dogcatchers by the antiwomen side are always exaggerated. Personally will be following up with my TD to kearn about this "organization"


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    #8124
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    end of the road wrote: »
    Igotadose wrote: »
    Then we must assume the organization doesn't exist. It's prolife ergo a bunch of liars.

    if the organisation does exist, it is pro-life, but not a bunch of liers
    Well until we know it exists, it's safe to assume it doesn't. And as we learned from the referendum, claims of numbers of gps or lawyers or dogcatchers by the antiwomen side are always exaggerated. Personally will be following up with my TD to kearn about this "organization"


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    #8125
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    end of the road wrote: »
    they can't be forced to give their names. they are entitled to remain anonymous if they wish.

    What, you believe that doctors belonging to or holding the same beliefs on abortion as a group of dedicated believers in the war on abortion would want to hide their moral position under a bushel as if ashamed of it?

    The answer is in front of the person who is declined service: go to another doctor and let other people know of the personal position of the doctor/clinic on abortion so no other woman goes to the clinic to be refused and save the doctor the embarrassment of turning them away from his/her surgery.


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    #8126
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Well until we know it exists, it's safe to assume it doesn't. And as we learned from the referendum, claims of numbers of gps or lawyers or dogcatchers by the antiwomen side are always exaggerated. Personally will be following up with my TD to kearn about this "organization"

    there is no anti-woman side. i saw nothing to say or prove any of the numbers put out by pro-life during the referendum were exaggerated.
    aloyisious wrote: »
    What, you believe that doctors belonging to or holding the same beliefs on abortion as a group of dedicated believers in the war on abortion would want to hide their moral position under a bushel as if ashamed of it?

    The answer is in front of the person who is declined service: go to another doctor and let other people know of the personal position of the doctor/clinic on abortion so no other woman goes to the clinic to be refused and save the doctor the embarrassment of turning them away from his/her surgery.

    i can't say whether an individual doctor would or wouldn't want to hide their view. however it must be up to them as to whether they want to express it or hide it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #8127
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭wench


    end of the road wrote: »
    however it must be up to them as to whether they want to express it or hide it.


    Why? Surely their potential patients have a right to know their position before wasting their time and money going to see them?


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    #8128
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    wench wrote: »
    Why? Surely their potential patients have a right to know their position before wasting their time and money going to see them?

    ideally yes, however there are some who are unable to deal with those doctors having a different view to them. and it is those who we have to keep quiet.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #8129
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    end of the road wrote: »
    i can't say whether an individual doctor would or wouldn't want to hide their view. however it must be up to them as to whether they want to express it or hide it.

    The other side of the coin is that by a refusal to provide a service and to refuse to refer the patient on to another doctor, the doctor is making two de facto public statements to the woman refused service whichever way the doctor chooses to express his/her opposition to abortion. In any case, as far as I know, there will at least be a professional body guideline given to doctors that they are obliged to refer the person he/she refuses service to on to another medical doctor, whatever else might be enacted into the law of the land making such a referral legally obligatory on the doctor refusing medical treatment to the woman requesting it. I believe that the angle of refusal has been well covered here by debate in the past so there's really not much point in flogging that horse but if that's your choice....


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    #8130
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is no anti-woman side. i saw nothing to say or prove any of the numbers put out by pro-life during the referendum were exaggerated.



    i can't say whether an individual doctor would or wouldn't want to hide their view. however it must be up to them as to whether they want to express it or hide it.

    I would assume that such doctors would refund any consultation fee. It would be a bit rich to charge someone for a refusal to perform a service.


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    #8131
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I would assume that such doctors would refund any consultation fee. It would be a bit rich to charge someone for a refusal to perform a service.

    i guess it may depend on the gp and what has actually been done in terms of consultation. perhapse attending the practice may still be enough to charge the fee.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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