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Child Item

Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

PopePalpatine

I didn't know whether to post this here or in the Sanctimony of Pro-Lifers thread in t'udder forum - a BBC article on Paraguay's "epidemic" of child pregnancies. Paraguay only allows for abortion if the mother's life is at risk. On average, two girls aged 14 and under become pregnant in Paraguay every day.

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eviltwin

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Two year waiting list for urgent cataract surgery is ok in Ireland, but a three day wait for elective abortion taking anyway someones life is an insult :pac: :pac::pac:

Oh I know all about waiting lists believe me but they tend to be because of financial reasons, lack of staff and services

Not because we need to patronise women by making them wait just in case they don't really know their own mind.

You're condescending response kinda just proves my point.

SusieBlue

An_Toirpin wrote: »

LOL. Nice changing the goal posts with the insertion of 'Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning. '

Abort means to end. Abortion is a vague term that mean many things in the medical context and to apply pedantic meaning to it is pointless and false.

You're the one shifting goal posts.

To clarify, are you suggesting that its legal for healthy women who give birth to healthy, full term babies to enuthanise/"abort" their children post birth, just because they feel like it?
If that isn't what you are saying, you are being deliberately misleading in order to make your point. You are telling lies.

An_Toirpin

SusieBlue wrote: »

That isn't a post birth abortion. You are calling it that does not make it so. Using emotive language to manipulate a reaction does not make your point more valid or pertinent.

You are exploiting tragic circumstances in a different country to suit your viewpoint.

Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning infants are not aborted "post birth" in the Netherlands. Stop telling lies.

LOL. Nice changing the goal posts with the insertion of 'Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning. '

Abort means to end. Abortion is a vague term that mean many things in the medical context and to apply pedantic meaning to it is pointless and false.

robindch

An_Toirpin wrote: »

[...] legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.

I'm not sure whether you mean legalized pedophilia or legalized child euthanasia.

In any case, both topics are unrelated to abortion - if you'd like to open up a thread on whatever it is you're talking about, please feel free to go ahead. Note that you will be expected to back up assertions you make in that thread, just as you are in this one.

SusieBlue

Its extremely amusing to see the same scaremongering shock tactics being used again. Nobody believed them the first time round in the lead up to the referendum, no one is going to believe them now.

Loafing Oaf

Cabaal wrote: »

They've already been busy sending leaflets/letters out since the ref outcome

I find that a bit surprising, but I guess it doesn't take much effort to send a boilerplate leaflet to a mailing list of TDs, including Ruth Coppinger, Brid Smith etc.

An_Toirpin

volchitsa wrote: »

Nope, you're conflating two different things. It's simple really. No law on euthanasia anywhere in the world is based on a right to abortion.

You may as well say giving women the right to vote has led them to want a right to abortion. Actually you'd have a better argument linking those two than abortion and euthanasia.

What do you think adoption is, if not a right not to be a parent?

You are just repeating you own misunderstanding. I didn't say that euthanasia that. I said that fighting euthanasia, especially forced euthanasia will be featuring in the prolifes movement future.

Arguing that women's right to vote led to legal abortion is a farce of an argument. The prolife moment is dominated by women. All of the peer review study of abortion views shows that gender has no bearing on what people people choose to align with.

volchitsa

An_Toirpin wrote: »

I repeat there are circumstances where killing an infant in the Netherlands is legally permitted. You can apologise now for mocking.

There are, and they are unrelated to the abortion debate, and are based solely on an extension of euthanasia laws for the terminally ill.

It is tiring how many times the pro aborts get their facts mixed up.

I'm not mixed up at all. I'm right and you are either wrong or lying.
Not that child euthanasia doesn't exist, I know it does, but in linking it to abortion - that's a lie.

SusieBlue

An_Toirpin wrote: »

I repeat there are circumstances where killing an infant in the Netherlands is legally permitted. You can apologise now for mocking.

It is tiring how many times the pro aborts get their facts mixed up.

That isn't a post birth abortion. You are calling it that does not make it so. Using emotive language to manipulate a reaction does not make your point more valid or pertinent.

You are exploiting tragic circumstances in a different country to suit your viewpoint.

Healthy, fully formed, fully functioning infants are not aborted "post birth" in the Netherlands. Stop telling lies.

Cabaal

SusieBlue wrote: »

Please back your claim up with a link or I'm afraid you are telling lies.

You're flogging a dead horse anyway. The majority of the country agreed the 8th needed to go. Its now gone. Lamenting about alleged "post birth abortions" is pointless.

ah now Susieblue, you are forgetting a few important things.

First off, whataboutery is very important and An_Toirpin is doing that perfectly. Next off, killing, murdering and stuff like that. So you are wrong.

An_Toirpin is right because they said so, no need for any evidence to backup anything they say.

:pac::pac:

An_Toirpin

Cabaal wrote: »

You made the claim, its your job to prove its not false.

Now back it up with proper verified data from a reliable none bias source.
Of course, if you refuse to do this or don't provide a reliable source then we can all agree you just made a false claim....otherwise known as a lie

Jotkowitz, Alan B., and Shimon Glick. "The Groningen protocol: another perspective." Journal of medical ethics 32.3 (2006): 157

There you have it. An example of why we must not lose track of individualism. A commitment to individualism is the foundation of my pro life values.

volchitsa

An_Toirpin wrote: »

I didn't say the Eight Amendment gave protections to born kids. First it was about choice. Then about 'relieving suffering'.

Nope, you're conflating two different things. It's simple really. No law on euthanasia anywhere in the world is based on a right to abortion.

You may as well say giving women the right to vote has led them to want a right to abortion. Actually you'd have a better argument linking those two than abortion and euthanasia.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

There is no right for a parent to cease being a parent. Ludicrous. Tragically there will be a law permitting killing of unborn kids. But not a right for parents not to be parents.

What do you think adoption is, if not a right not to be a parent?

SusieBlue

An_Toirpin wrote: »

eh it exists. Do your research.

Please back your claim up with a link or I'm afraid you are telling lies.

You're flogging a dead horse anyway. The majority of the country agreed the 8th needed to go. Its now gone. Lamenting about alleged "post birth abortions" is pointless.

Loafing Oaf

Cabaal wrote: »

You made the claim, its your job to prove its not false.

Now back it up with proper verified data from a reliable none bias source.

Or else it's another one for this list:

An_Toirpin

volchitsa wrote: »

No it doesn't. Putting words together doesn't make something a thing.

Those invisible pink unicorns are there to prove my point.

I repeat there are circumstances where killing an infant in the Netherlands is legally permitted. You can apologise now for mocking.

It is tiring how many times the pro aborts get their facts mixed up.

Cabaal

An_Toirpin wrote: »

eh it exists. Do your research.

You made the claim, its your job to prove its not false.

Now back it up with proper verified data from a reliable none bias source.
Of course, if you refuse to do this or don't provide a reliable source then we can all agree you just made a false claim....otherwise known as a lie

An_Toirpin

volchitsa wrote: »

The euthanasia debate is completely unrelated to abortion.

Not only did those countries with child euthanasia laws bring them in as extensions of their euthanasia laws not abortion laws but it would be perfectly possible for Ireland to bring in similar laws on child euthanasia with the 8th still in existence.

Because they are based on relieving unbearable pain for children with a hopeless prognosis, not on a woman's right not to be pregnant.

I didn't say the Eight Amendment gave protections to born kids. First it was about choice. Then about 'relieving suffering'.

volchitsa wrote: »

not on a woman's right not to be pregnant.

There is no right for a parent to cease being a parent. Ludicrous. Tragically there will be a law permitting killing of unborn kids. But not a right for parents not to be parents.

volchitsa

An_Toirpin wrote: »

eh it exists. Do your research.

No it doesn't. Putting words together doesn't make something a thing.

Those invisible pink unicorns are there to prove my point.

Cabaal

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Nothing of substance they can do about the legislation. Vast majority of TDs are committed to supporting the proposals set out by Simon Harris before the referendum. I suspect they'll barely even bother lobbying.

They've already been busy sending leaflets/letters out since the ref outcome

Under His Eye wrote: »

Pickets on abortion clinics and the harassment of the people attending/working at said clinics will be the no sides next move.

way to tackle that is have the procedures in normal hospitals, are they going to picket every hospital...unlikely.

Of course if they do try say picket the big one's in Dublin then exclusion zones will need to be put in place

An_Toirpin

SusieBlue wrote: »

Sorry, what exactly is a post birth abortion? Or did you just make up a hyperbolic term to create a reaction?

You lost. Get over it.

eh it exists. Do your research.

Loafing Oaf

Under His Eye wrote: »

Pickets on abortion clinics and the harassment of the people attending/working at said clinics will be the no sides next move.

Well it might be if there were going to be any 'abortion clinics'...

SusieBlue

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Or maybe it will be fighting pushes to normalise post birth abortion ie legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.

Sorry, what exactly is a post birth abortion? Or did you just make up a hyperbolic term to create a reaction?

You lost. Get over it.

volchitsa

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Or maybe it will be fighting pushes to normalise post birth abortion ie legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.

The euthanasia debate is completely unrelated to abortion.

Not only did those countries with child euthanasia laws bring them in as extensions of their euthanasia laws not abortion laws but it would be perfectly possible for Ireland to bring in similar laws on child euthanasia with the 8th still in existence.

Because they are based on relieving unbearable pain for children with a hopeless prognosis, not on a woman's right not to be pregnant.

An_Toirpin

eviltwin wrote: »

I think the time it takes for a woman to make the decision to have an abortion is enough waiting. Making her hang on another 3 days is an insult to her intelligence and just makes her vulnerable to pro life bullies.

Two year waiting list for urgent cataract surgery is ok in Ireland, but a three day wait for elective abortion taking anyway someones life is an insult :pac: :pac::pac:

An_Toirpin

volchitsa wrote: »

QED.

Or maybe it will be fighting pushes to normalise post birth abortion ie legal child enthusiasm like they they have in the Netherlands.

Under His Eye

Pickets on abortion clinics and the harassment of the people attending/working at said clinics will be the no sides next move.

eviltwin

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The waiting period may save many lives. I think we should be very grateful for it.

I think the time it takes for a woman to make the decision to have an abortion is enough waiting. Making her hang on another 3 days is an insult to her intelligence and just makes her vulnerable to pro life bullies.

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

I expect that, as ever, they'll quietly move their previously unassailable barriers of what they are actually opposed to, and just set them up again a little further back and act as though that's what they were fighting against all along.

IOW their new battle will be all about conscientious objection.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The waiting period may save many lives. I think we should be very grateful for it.

QED.

An_Toirpin

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Seems like you're not the only one thinking this way
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doctor-fears-on-abortion-pause-37332018.html

I reckon the waiting period was part of the broader 'don't frighten the horses' approach that (reasonably at the time) thought necessary to getting repeal past 'middle Ireland.' If they knew the referendum result was such a foregone conclusion I doubt it would have been proposed but it looks like they're stuck with it now...

The waiting period may save many lives. I think we should be very grateful for it.

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The waiting period is a farce and should be removed.

Seems like you're not the only one thinking this way
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/doctor-fears-on-abortion-pause-37332018.html

I reckon the waiting period was part of the broader 'don't frighten the horses' approach that (reasonably at the time) thought necessary to getting repeal past 'middle Ireland.' If they knew the referendum result was such a foregone conclusion I doubt it would have been proposed but it looks like they're stuck with it now...