Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

alaimacerc

seamus wrote: »

But will she find any solicitor willing to assist her file a dead duck appeal when they're unlikely to get paid?

There's plenty of people rattling around -- and rattling rosaries -- with a law degree. Obviously you might see a fairly steep drop-off in quality if they're only doing it to further their personal dogmatic agenda, and not to get paid. But judging by the poor arguments made in this case, we may be there already.

Loafing Oaf

alaimacerc wrote: »

There's plenty of people rattling around -- and rattling rosaries -- with a law degree. Obviously you might see a fairly steep drop-off in quality if they're only doing it to further their personal dogmatic agenda, and not to get paid. But judging by the poor arguments made in this case, we may be there already.

Let me introduce Ms Jordan's representative:



Tbh I don't see much reason to question the competence of Ms Jordan's counsel, but I couldn't resist quoting one of The Simpsons' greatest moments...

aloyisious

I'm not sure who represented Joanna in her appeal against Judge Kelly's HC ruling or who she will be represented by if she does succeed in getting to the SC. In her HC case she was represented by Killian McMorrow BL.

Excerpt from link on her High Court case before Judge Kelly: Killian McMorrow BL, for Ms Jordan, said he had no instructions beyond today and to seek Ms Jordan’s costs against the State.
He said her application had raised genuine issues about the system of voter registration and had contributed to restoring social cohesion after the “most divisive” referendum in the State’s history.
A significant number of people with deep religious convictions were “genuinely shocked, distressed and crestfallen” at the outcome of the referendum following a “polarising” and sometimes “bitter” campaign which set younger people against older people, he said.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/failed-abortion-referendum-challenger-says-she-will-appeal-high-court-refusal-857358.html


I was wondering if Joanna would run out of judges free of prior involvement with her actions against this referendum. It seems none of them were involved in it. I don't think she might take the risk of claiming bias from any of them who may have heard her previous referendum case in one court or another some years ago.

Judges of the Supreme Court
The Hon. Mr. Justice Frank Clarke, Chief Justice
The Hon. Mr. Justice Donal O'Donnell
The Hon. Mr. Justice Liam McKechnie
The Hon. Mr. Justice John Mac Menamin
The Hon. Ms. Justice Elizabeth Dunne
The Hon. Mr. Justice Peter Charleton
The Hon. Ms. Justice Iseult O'Malley
The Hon. Ms. Justice Mary Finlay Geoghegan
vacancy x 2

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

He said her application had raised genuine issues about the system of voter registration and had contributed to restoring social cohesion after the “most divisive” referendum in the State’s history.

Unbelieveable - trying to invalidate an overwhelming result on entirely spurious grounds is "restoring social cohesion" :rolleyes:

A significant number of people with deep religious convictions were “genuinely shocked, distressed and crestfallen” at the outcome of the referendum following a “polarising” and sometimes “bitter” campaign which set younger people against older people, he said.

Well it's a fûcking pity about them and their religious convictions no longer being able to dictate to everyone else, isn't it?

Also, the young against old narrative is a crock. There was substantial support for repeal across every age group. The only age group to oppose repeal was 65+, but even there there was substantial support for repeal.

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also, the young against old narrative is a crock. There was substantial support for repeal across every age group. The only age group to oppose repeal was 65+, but even there there was substantial support for repeal.

I found with myself and my husband we got a bit closer to our parents (all but one aged 65+) during the lead up to and the referendum campaign. I have been pregnant during the whole things, with a possible fatal abnormality which thankfully turned out to be a false alarm. We had many chats with our families about how the eighth amendment was affecting us as a couple with a wanted pregnancy, how it affected maternity care and miscarriage management (something none of them even considered as like many people, I suspect, they thought the eighth was solely about banning abortions here in Ireland) and why we were trying to explain why voting yes was good for all pregnant people. A lot of hidden things came out, myths were challenged, stories were told for the first time and they all voted yes without hesitation. We can't be the only couple who this happened to this year all because of the referendum.

smacl

lazygal wrote: »

We can't be the only couple who this happened to this year all because of the referendum.

My daughter (then 14) went to some lengths to explain the repeal argument to her Grandmother (91) who ended up voting to repeal. I'd suspect this wasn't unusual.

Igotadose

lazygal wrote: »

A lot of hidden things came out, myths were challenged, stories were told for the first time and they all voted yes without hesitation. .

I campaigned for repeal, and the eye-opening thing was the older (50's-60's) women we talked with who had nothing but horror stories about otherwise successful pregnancies, chiefly around the awful misogynistic care provided by the gynaecologists back in the day. It's the anecdotes, things like 'in her shoes,' and other sites that caused the repeal to be such a landslide.

One friend told us that when she went into labor with her first child back in the 80s', her gynaecologist came into the OR without scrubbing - he'd clearly been mowing his lawn because he still had grass stains on jersey. He rushed through the delivery, using forceps that required her to have multiple surgeries afterwards. And this was 'the best' gyno in the area, who fortunately has since retired and died.

Coming from the US, I know women use their obgyn's for their life-long family physicians, women learn to like them and trust them. When I mentioned this to the friend, she laughed and looked at me like I'd sprouted another head. This is why the eighth finally being gone, will change attitudes. It's not just about abortion.

.......

Igotadose wrote: »

It's not just about abortion.

It was never just about abortion but the pro-lifers always just made it ONLY about abortion so they could push a false narrative that continued to endanger the lives and health of Irish women.

Id didnt suit them AT ALL to talk about wanted pregnancies, hence the unbelievable push back about Savita's death and its cause, literally arguing it down to a point where all humanity was lost and a different meaning was being imposed on commonplace words just so they could insist that it wasnt related to the 8th.

lazygal

....... wrote: »

It was never just about abortion but the pro-lifers always just made it ONLY about abortion so they could push a false narrative that continued to endanger the lives and health of Irish women.

Id didnt suit them AT ALL to talk about wanted pregnancies, hence the unbelievable push back about Savita's death and its cause, literally arguing it down to a point where all humanity was lost and a different meaning was being imposed on commonplace words just so they could insist that it wasnt related to the 8th.

I was told by a prolife person handing out leaflets that abortion was available for rape and fatal abnormalities, and that the eighth actually provided for all the hard cases so we didn't need to change it. Blatant outright lies. I heard no such lies from anyone on the prorepeal side I spoke to or saw in the media. It was infuriating that these sorts of lies weren't challenged. The eighth amendment affects every single pregnancy in Ireland, no matter what your circumstances, women have been taken to court for refusing interventions at the very end of pregnancy or have been told their miscarriages won't be medically managed because of it.

volchitsa

lazygal wrote: »

I was told by a prolife person handing out leaflets that abortion was available for rape and fatal abnormalities, and that the eighth actually provided for all the hard cases so we didn't need to change it. Blatant outright lies. I heard no such lies from anyone on the prorepeal side I spoke to or saw in the media. It was infuriating that these sorts of lies weren't challenged. The eighth amendment affects every single pregnancy in Ireland, no matter what your circumstances, women have been taken to court for refusing interventions at the very end of pregnancy or have been told their miscarriages won't be medically managed because of it.

Reading this brought me straight back to the referendum campaign, but then I just got such a feeling of relief that it's all over and that people weren't taken in by those anti choice lies.

lazygal

The relief when it passed so comprehensively.

volchitsa

Definitely.

Seriously, I got a moment of nearly hyperventilation at the thought that we could be still going through all that. That's what I meant by the relief when I was able to say to myself, it's over, we did it.

Just a couple of stupid idiots and their completely groundless court appeal. I really feel we're just humouring them though. Because the result was so overwhelming.

lazygal

It makes legislation unavoidable too. A decisive mandate has been given.

seamus

Igotadose wrote: »

It's the anecdotes, things like 'in her shoes,' and other sites that caused the repeal to be such a landslide.

I think this really was it. You often hear people talk about building or running a "grassroots" campaign. But by definition, a grassroots campaign is one that is not run or built.

It is people on the ground, completely without alliance to any organisation, taking their time to talk to their friends and their families and to do their part. A grassroots campaign happens when people get so energised about a topic that they - en masse - will take it upon themselves to campaign independently.

This referendum was the best example of a "grassroots" campaign I've ever seen. And I agree that it was a landslide because for the first time in the history of this state, people talked about reproduction.
They talked about pregnancy, they talked about childbirth. They spoke frankly about it, without any blushing overtones of sin or guilt, and with the raw hurt that was created by outdated and often cruel maternity practices.
And when the older people saw the younger people were not afraid to talk about it, they realised that they too need not be afraid. And they talked about it.

It was revealed to my wife last night that her paternal grandfather had a twin brother. Died shortly after birth. She'd gone her whole life so far not knowing this. Her own father said that even he didn't find out until he was in his teens.
"It just wasn't talked about" apparently. Childbirth was the equivalent of taking a sh1t. You go in, you close the door, you come out, the job is done. Nobody needs to know what happened in there, it's disgusting to talk about it, just pretend it doesn't happen and move on.

You can see how such a "keep schtum" attitude to childbirth could lead to such long-lasting anti-abortion laws. There were referendum campaigns on a topic that nobody was really allowed to talk truthfully about. So of course those who spoke in lies and false information won the day.

When people finally felt that it was time to break the taboo, the walls came crashing down.

aloyisious

I thought the national debate on the issue of abortion was done and dusted until I [just now] saw the Renua Ireland Ad on F/Book. I though maybe the August 23 date was from another year so I googled Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life and found it is from this month and year. Well, I was wrong. The party is alive as well. I deleted the link I posted because cos it opened onto my F/Book page. Just google Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life yourself.

ohnonotgmail

aloyisious wrote: »

I thought the national debate on the issue of abortion was done and dusted until I [just now] saw the Renua Ireland Ad on F/Book. I though maybe the August 23 date was from another year so I googled Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life and found it is from this month and year. Well, I was wrong. The party is alive as well. I deleted the link I posted because cos it opened onto my F/Book page. Just google Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life yourself.

should i save some time and gouge my eyes out now?

Hotblack Desiato

Their twitter feed is pretty mental.

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Their twitter feed is pretty mental.

I imagine that they view anyone with an alternative view to theirs as being lapsed believers.

Turtwig

aloyisious wrote: »

Just google Renua Ireland - pillar 4 Pro Life yourself.

Anyone who intends on doing this use incognito mode. Last thing you want is is pro life adds popping up everywhere

alaimacerc

Turtwig wrote: »

Anyone who intends on doing this use incognito mode. Last thing you want is is pro life adds popping up everywhere

Then again, anyone who hangs around the boards discussion boards is probably into a little bit of recreation shouting.

In policy terms, it's bizarre. Renua were a dead duck, having tried to tack from being one-issue splitters to breathtakingly right-wing on everything else, and plausibly deniable on abortion. And been wiped out for their trouble. Abortion's now been settled, so why go back to it?

To hoover up the disgruntled rosary-rattling vote, that's why. Don't have to have any prospect of changing anything; just need to try to haul in the predominant chunk of a quota.

end of the road

alaimacerc wrote: »

Then again, anyone who hangs around the boards discussion boards is probably into a little bit of recreation shouting.

In policy terms, it's bizarre. Renua were a dead duck, having tried to tack from being one-issue splitters to breathtakingly right-wing on everything else, and plausibly deniable on abortion. And been wiped out for their trouble. Abortion's now been settled, so why go back to it?

To hoover up the disgruntled rosary-rattling vote, that's why. Don't have to have any prospect of changing anything; just need to try to haul in the predominant chunk of a quota.

as we know, it isn't just catholics or religious in general, who have an issue with abortion, either full stop or AOD. even then, many people who have an issue with abortion in whichever form, would likely not vote for renua as their other policies may not represent them.

Cabaal

end of the road wrote: »

as we know, it isn't just catholics or religious in general, who have an issue with abortion, either full stop or AOD. even then, many people who have an issue with abortion in whichever form, would likely not vote for renua as their other policies may not represent them.

To be fair, their website is pretty thin on policy and even thiner on policy details about how they'd pull of anything they state is a piller.

The party is effectively meaningless, they are down to renting a office in a community centre. they are registered to:

Saint Joseph’s Community Centre,
Frankford,
Kilcormac,
Co. Offaly

http://www.kilcormac.com/services/kda/st-josephs-community-centre/

end of the road

Cabaal wrote: »

To be fair, their website is pretty thin on policy and even thiner on policy details about how they'd pull of anything they state is a piller.

The party is effectively meaningless, they are down to renting a office in a community centre. they are registered to:

Saint Joseph’s Community Centre,
Frankford,
Kilcormac,
Co. Offaly

http://www.kilcormac.com/services/kda/st-josephs-community-centre/

that's some good news at least.

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

as we know, it isn't just catholics or religious in general, who have an issue with abortion, either full stop or AOD. even then, many people who have an issue with abortion in whichever form, would likely not vote for renua as their other policies may not represent them.

We've a presidential election in Nov so the Renua F/B posts may be an effort to get a renewal of interest in it as a "party", riding on the back of the election. It'll be nice to know if any of the candidates might be linked to it in any way.

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

[...] how they'd pull of anything

Quite an image right there...

Loafing Oaf

Cabaal wrote: »

To be fair, their website is pretty thin on policy and even thiner on policy details about how they'd pull of anything they state is a piller.

The party is effectively meaningless, they are down to renting a office in a community centre.

Sounds a bit

loobylou

During the last election campaign I had a call at the door from a canvasser for the Renua candidate. I politely told him that I most certainly would not be voting for his colleague.
He enquired why and I explained I had three daughters and was pro-choice.
I kid you not but his response was, “but candidate A was a very nice guy and I would really like him if I ever met him”.

Hotblack Desiato

Anyone remember the Sky News interview a couple of days before the 8th vote with Colm O'Gorman and a, to be quite frank, embarrassingly and utterly nuts No campaigner?

Well... turned out she thinks she's presidential material!!! And Sarah Louise Mulligan even has it on her own Youtube channel...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja3CkGqoYg

Talk about cringeworthy!

Cabaal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Anyone remember the Sky News interview a couple of days before the 8th vote with Colm O'Gorman and a, to be quite frank, embarrassingly and utterly nuts No campaigner?

Well... turned out she thinks she's presidential material!!! And Sarah Louise Mulligan even has it on her own Youtube channel...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja3CkGqoYg

Talk about cringeworthy!

We'll see Donald Trump be president of Ireland before she will lol

That's a train wreck of an interview, she's well out of her depth when debating with Colm

.......

Cabaal wrote: »

That's a train wreck of an interview, she's well out of her depth when debating

FYP