Refugees.

Dohnjoe

Emme wrote: »

If we all decided to live like the Amish in the morning it would be the ultimate nightmare for the "masters".

Luckily we have the luxury of choice, most would prefer not to

Compared to any other time in history we have things easier than ever before (relatively), increasing amounts of freedom, choice, opportunities, mobility, stability.. our advancing economies have produced big leaps in terms of healthcare, education, every aspect of technology - all of which make our lives easier, safer, more comfortable, and more affluent.. on aggregate ever increasing standards of living by virtually all measurements

So much so we go onto internet forums to invent problems that don't exist, and label ourselves "slaves" without understanding it's true meaning

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Luckily we have the luxury of choice, most would prefer not to

Compared to any other time in history we have things easier than ever before (relatively), increasing amounts of freedom, choice, opportunities, mobility, stability.. our advancing economies have produced big leaps in terms of healthcare, education, every aspect of technology - all of which make our lives easier, safer, more comfortable, and more affluent.. on aggregate ever increasing standards of living by virtually all measurements

So much so we go onto internet forums to invent problems that don't exist, and label ourselves "slaves" without understanding it's true meaning

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Dohnjoe

Indeed, and then there are those that think they are "enslaved", but in reality are living at comfortably, at home, in a first world country, with a nice laptop, internet and sense of imagined persecution

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Indeed, and then there are those that think they are "enslaved", but in reality are living at comfortably, at home, in a first world country, with a nice laptop, internet and sense of imagined persecution

Both parents working like slaves just to own a home in 30 years and some tiny pension not getting to watch their kids grow up because they have to work for money most of which goes to bank bailouts via tax. Laptop and internet? Is that what gives your life value? Those are the things that make you think you have "luxury"? Time is the real currency of life and it diminishes at an increasing rate for us euro slaves. You have got to keep on that treadmill. Don't you notice how little time people have nowadays?

some people live in complete fantasy...fewer people live in complete reality... most people live somewhere in between. A bit of make-believe is what keeps most people believing they are free.

Dohnjoe

regi3457 wrote: »

Both parents working like slaves just to own a home in 30 years and some tiny pension

We're going a bit off topic here, but just to address this:

Land/property is a scarce resource, prices for which are based on the market, supply and demand. Unless we go back to feudal times and subsistence farming, it's the best practical solution to rent or get a mortgage

These days we even have the option not to work (social welfare)Historically we would have starved to death if we were unable to support ourselves

Pensions are a way of financially supporting ourselves through old age, previously we would have had no income and relied on family support, which, if lacking, often meant destitution

> not getting to watch their kids grow up because they have to work for money most of which goes to bank bailouts via tax

Our leisure time has actually increased. Teleworking, part time work, crèche's, optional single income or dual income families - we actually have a lot of choice. Often the pressure we feel is not to survive, but to maintain high standards, have a large TV, have a car, etc - these are all luxuries which we deem to be necessities

Tax spent on bailouts was relatively small. In 1929 the country was devastated, in 2007 when faced with a financial crisis of almost equal strength the US economy pulled out of it in 2 and a half years, - they even made a profit on public money used to bailout banks

Time is the real currency of life and it diminishes at an increasing rate for us euro slaves.

You are completely free to go and live in any of the developing countries where they have 14 hour work days, weak social welfare, bad healthcare, bad infrastructure, lower literacy rates, higher infant mortality rates, fewer opportunities, fewer rights.. likewise we'll find a similar situation if we look back in time

King Mob

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You are completely free to go and live in any of the developing countries where they have 14 hour work days, weak social welfare, bad healthcare, bad infrastructure, lower literacy rates, higher infant mortality rates, fewer opportunities, fewer rights.. likewise we'll find a similar situation if we look back in time

And don't forget where opinions like his would be outright banned and earn him a visit from authorities, if he was allowed access to the internet and to sites that inspired him in the first place.

weisses

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Luckily we have the luxury of choice, most would prefer not to

Compared to any other time in history we have things easier than ever before (relatively), increasing amounts of freedom, choice, opportunities, mobility, stability.. our advancing economies have produced big leaps in terms of healthcare, education, every aspect of technology - all of which make our lives easier, safer, more comfortable, and more affluent.. on aggregate ever increasing standards of living by virtually all measurements

So much so we go onto internet forums to invent problems that don't exist, and label ourselves "slaves" without understanding it's true meaning

watch this ... It will be valid for millions and millions of people globally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvfy5Enz6-c

If people would start doing what they want and not fall for credit and mortgage traps the masters will be upset

Its a vicious circle modern day western world humanity is trapped in

Deserves a topic of its own

Dohnjoe

weisses wrote: »

If people would start doing what they want and not fall for credit and mortgage traps the masters will be upset

I'll have a look at the video later

"Masters" is a odd term to use. There is demand for a product (mortgages, loans, credit) and there are tens of thousands of institutions around the world (banks, saving and loans, credit unions, etc) which supply that demand

If they provide bad or misleading products then their customers often go elsewhere, they can be fined, fall foul of the regulator, go out of business, etc

Likewise, if customers make bad decisions, fail to repay loans, clock up large credit card bills, etc they must also take blame for their actions

Dohnjoe

weisses wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvfy5Enz6-c

I can't say I thought the video was anything but nonsensical

The narrator implies people should barter goods? we did that, it was a cumbersome and backward and everyone pretty much universally agreed money was a far better system (practicality)

There shouldn't be fast food workers? hmmm if only there was some way to stop people wanting... fast food (basic supply and demand)

People should be making pottery and fixing cars instead of working in companies and corporations? bloody hell. People do fix cars and make pottery. I presume he has zero idea of how many jobs were required to make the recording software so we could hear him ramble on, hundreds of different jobs, some awful, some good.. to satisfy a demand he has created - from the sounds of it I presume the thought has never occurred to him. All the food, clothes, goods, services he consumes. Can't have universal barter systems and macbooks at the same time. That's Karl Pilkington territory.

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

We're going a bit off topic here, but just to address this:

Land/property is a scarce resource, prices for which are based on the market, supply and demand. Unless we go back to feudal times and subsistence farming, it's the best practical solution to rent or get a mortgage

These days we even have the option not to work (social welfare)Historically we would have starved to death if we were unable to support ourselves

Pensions are a way of financially supporting ourselves through old age, previously we would have had no income and relied on family support, which, if lacking, often meant destitution

> not getting to watch their kids grow up because they have to work for money most of which goes to bank bailouts via tax

Our leisure time has actually increased. Teleworking, part time work, crèche's, optional single income or dual income families - we actually have a lot of choice. Often the pressure we feel is not to survive, but to maintain high standards, have a large TV, have a car, etc - these are all luxuries which we deem to be necessities

Tax spent on bailouts was relatively small. In 1929 the country was devastated, in 2007 when faced with a financial crisis of almost equal strength the US economy pulled out of it in 2 and a half years, - they even made a profit on public money used to bailout banks



You are completely free to go and live in any of the developing countries where they have 14 hour work days, weak social welfare, bad healthcare, bad infrastructure, lower literacy rates, higher infant mortality rates, fewer opportunities, fewer rights.. likewise we'll find a similar situation if we look back in time

I have lived in developing countries and prefer where I live now but thank you for your welcome. I actually have a great life in Ireland and am luckier than most people but I see the world around me and am not blind.

Your optimism is refreshing and perhaps a necessary self-preserving mechanism that all human beings possess. Life would be harder accepting a truth that shows your actual place in the economic food chain for what it is. How can you say people work less? I just sat for 90 minutes in traffic coming home until 8:30pm (this was odd since I don't actually like going out in rush hour and don't do it often) and saw people coming down from 4 cups of coffee stressed, cursing in their cars desperate to get home and just have a couple of moments of time-out before they go to bed and have to start all over again. Have you not heard terms like "rat race" to describe our world? People do spend a lot on "luxuries" but if the economic system was not extractive by nature, and if it was just, you would have those luxuries and more time to spend with your families as well. You and everyone around you would be working 5 hours a day and spending more time with family and friends. Your kids would get to see more of their parents and not have to grow up with a paid childminder. You would own your house a lot sooner and perhaps not even need a bank to pay the rest of your life.

What people are given by the state is just enough to keep them in line and keep them decent. Uprisings are bad for business and a stable country keeps the wealth flowing in to the right places.

regi3457

weisses wrote: »

watch this ... It will be valid for millions and millions of people globally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvfy5Enz6-c

If people would start doing what they want and not fall for credit and mortgage traps the masters will be upset

Its a vicious circle modern day western world humanity is trapped in

Deserves a topic of its own

People have no choice but to fall for credit mortgages... that is how the system works. Most people cannot escape it unfortunately. I guess though, that the most immediate problem is that people can't even see it. The strong will always rule the weak and the intelligent will always rule the ignorant.

Dohnjoe

regi3457 wrote: »

Your optimism is refreshing and perhaps a necessary self-preserving mechanism that all human beings possess. Life would be harder accepting a truth that shows your actual place in the economic food chain for what it is. How can you say people work less? I just sat for 90 minutes in traffic coming home until 8:30pm (this was odd since I don't actually like going out in rush hour and don't do it often) and saw people coming down from 4 cups of coffee stressed, cursing in their cars desperate to get home and just have a couple of moments of time-out before they go to bed and have to start all over again. Have you not heard terms like "rat race" to describe our world? People do spend a lot on "luxuries" but if the economic system was not extractive by nature, and if it was just, you would have those luxuries and more time to spend with your families as well.

On aggregate people have more leisure time than ever before, work less hours than our counterparts in developing countries and in far better working conditions - the rate of progress in this area is limited by many factors, hence changes are gradual

This is one of the reasons why so many refugees and immigrants want to come to developed countries

You and everyone around you would be working 5 hours a day and spending more time with family and friends. Your kids would get to see more of their parents and not have to grow up with a paid childminder. You would own your house a lot sooner and perhaps not even need a bank to pay the rest of your life.

It's very easy to sit there and say that we should have 5 hour days, no traffic, and no mortgages without explaining how any of this is achieved

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

On aggregate people have more leisure time than ever before, work less hours than our counterparts in developing countries and in far better working conditions - the rate of progress in this area is limited by many factors, hence changes are gradual

This is one of the reasons why so many refugees and immigrants want to come to developed countries



It's very easy to sit there and say that we should have 5 hour days, no traffic, and no mortgages without explaining how any of this is achieved

You are right it is very easy to say it. Much easier than watching people commute 1 and a half hours in slow-moving traffic to get to a job they can't afford to live nearby. If the economy was not set up to extract the most out of each and every worker there would be more wealth evenly distributed but that would not serve the elite. Your position exists only for their benefit. You are an orange and if you were making orange juice would you squeeze it half way or all the way?

Comparing our working conditions to other countries working conditions is not going to get you anywhere. Extractive economic policies (and colonization / exploitation) in the developing world kept those countries far behind. In Western Europe starting with the industrial revolution things improved but remember that western Europe was able to exploit the whole rest of the world for its wealth. This influx of wealth has allowed us better living standards but this doesn't change the fundamental extractive nature of our economies. A slave could live in better conditions than another slave down the road and compare himself and feel great about his circumstances because he has a real bed as opposed to a bundle of hay. You need to ask yourself the fundamental question. How much wealth is there? Where is it and how is it distributed in the world?

Dohnjoe

regi3457 wrote: »

If the economy was not set up to extract the most out of each and every worker

The economy was not "set up". It's been a huge evolution of trial and error, differing across countries and regions. People's demands and market conditions set pay and working hours.

You need to ask yourself the fundamental question. How much wealth is there? Where is it and how is it distributed in the world?

Wealth is created, it's not a finite source. Experiments to "equalize" everything (e.g. communism) have not gone well

A by product of our own progress is that there are some who become disproportionally wealthy - this is a problem and certain countries tackle this in differing ways and with differing results. In Denmark for example, the difference between CEO pay and lowest pay in a particular company is approx. 4 times, which is fairly acceptable

You've yet to explain how we get 5 hours days, no traffic, no mortgages.

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The economy was not "set up". It's been a huge evolution of trial and error, differing across countries and regions. People's demands and market conditions set pay and working hours.



Wealth is created, it's not a finite source. Experiments to "equalize" everything (e.g. communism) have not gone well

A by product of our own progress is that there are some who become disproportionally wealthy - this is a problem and certain countries tackle this in differing ways and with differing results. In Denmark for example, the difference between CEO pay and lowest pay in a particular company is approx. 4 times, which is fairly acceptable

You've yet to explain how we get 5 hours days, no traffic, no mortgages.

The economy was not set up, but it is "set up" a certain way and fine tuning has only been to be able to extract more from the majority and successfully convincing them that they have the better end of the deal. I mean, if migrants are flooding at our doors then we must be lucky right?

I can't speak for everyone else, but in my own life I have no traffic, 5 hour working days (at the absolute most) and no mortgage. I come from a poor family so never got a dime from anyone. I just never accepted being like the rest of people and refuse to live like they do.

Dohnjoe

regi3457 wrote: »

The economy was not set up, but it is "set up" a certain way and fine tuning has only been to be able to extract more from the majority and successfully convincing them that they have the better end of the deal. I mean, if migrants are flooding at our doors then we must be lucky right?

We are getting the better end of the deal on average. Healthcare, education, job opportunities, job flexibility, mobility, health and safety, pay, equality, rights and many other factors are all improving. Of course set backs happen, land/property is getting more expensive, population density increasing, etc but on aggregate we have higher standards of living by almost all measures than previous generations - but people will always moan about their lot, that will never change

I can't speak for everyone else, but in my own life I have no traffic, 5 hour working days (at the absolute most) and no mortgage. I come from a poor family so never got a dime from anyone. I just never accepted being like the rest of people and refuse to live like they do.

I work in close enough conditions - which is far superior to almost anything historically or in modern day developing countries. Also people don't necessarily solely yearn from free time, they also want money. In my company we offer 4/5 time, one half time and 1/5 time - few take these options despite the abundance of free time they will offer

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

We are getting the better end of the deal on average. Healthcare, education, job opportunities, job flexibility, mobility, health and safety, pay, equality, rights and many other factors are all improving. Of course set backs happen, land/property is getting more expensive, population density increasing, etc but on aggregate we have higher standards of living by almost all measures than previous generations - but people will always moan about their lot, that will never change




I work in close enough conditions - which is far superior to almost anything historically or in modern day developing countries. Also people don't necessarily solely yearn from free time, they also want money. In my company we offer 4/5 time, one half time and 1/5 time - few take these options despite the abundance of free time they will offer

They don't want it, they need it. If they could pay for their mortgage and spend time with their families then that would be ideal but they can't. Life is too expensive. Both parents must work and they must work full time. This is the extractive nature of the economy. Who can afford to work 5 hours a day? Seriously?

Dohnjoe

So far it's not economically possible for the whole populace to work an average of 5 hours a day whilst sustaining our current lifestyles and being able easily afford property (a price which is set by the market, aka ourselves)

It's taken us hundreds of years of economic reform, trial and error and development to get to approx 8 hours a day, to get the amount free time we have and to get the lifestyles we are used to. I am sure it will take us several generations (or more) before we get to 5 hours work a day on average (due to economic and social limitations)

"Life is too expensive" is a subjective complaint.

Here is an interesting tidbit - in Switzerland via direct democracy they recently voted not to get 2 weeks holidays more per year

They also voted to continue to allow CEO pay to be more than 12 times higher than the lowest paid employee

regi3457

Dohnjoe wrote: »

So far it's not economically possible for the whole populace to work an average of 5 hours a day whilst sustaining our current lifestyles and being able easily afford property (a price which is set by the market, aka ourselves)

I disagree. The market price is not set by "ourselves". Supply is not set by "ourselves". Very little is actually set by "ourselves". And my point, again, is that it should be economically possible to work that amount of time to sustain the lives that we live in this day and age. It isn't so only because the time you spend working is not spent to fill only your pockets, the time is spent to fill somebody elses. That is the nature of the beast.

ScumLord

regi3457 wrote: »

Life is too expensive. Both parents must work and they must work full time.

That's not really true. Food is as cheap as it's been since money was invented. Food used to be currency in ancient times before currency people could literally work for their supper.

Accommodation suffers the same constraints it always has. If you want to be in the centre of a major urban settlement you're going to have to compete for the same space many other people want to live in. If you live in the countryside you can live for much cheaper.

There's also simply more to buy these days, for the most part you don't need 99% of the stuff out there, we just want it. These are expenses that simply didn't exist in the past. There may be a big gap between rich and poor, but modern day "poor" is a very different kettle of fish compared to "poor" in the past. The bottom rung of the social ladder is much higher these days,

regi3457

ScumLord wrote: »

That's not really true. Food is as cheap as it's been since money was invented. Food used to be currency in ancient times before currency people could literally work for their supper.

Accommodation suffers the same constraints it always has. If you want to be in the centre of a major urban settlement you're going to have to compete for the same space many other people want to live in. If you live in the countryside you can live for much cheaper.

There's also simply more to buy these days, for the most part you don't need 99% of the stuff out there, we just want it. These are expenses that simply didn't exist in the past. There may be a big gap between rich and poor, but modern day "poor" is a very different kettle of fish compared to "poor" in the past. The bottom rung of the social ladder is much higher these days,

There is data on other threads showing that people do work longer hours especially taking into account that women have joined the workforce now to sustain what one parent could. There was also a interesting thread titled " leaving work frowned upon" on boards which demonstrates very well how even a normal work week is seen as poor performance in many companies.

then a first page search in google yields titles like

Americans Work More Than Anyone - ABC News

Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's

Are young people working too hard? | Guardian Careers | The Guardian

Extreme working hours: Why do people do it to themselves? | The ...

Britons 'working more than 48 hours a week' | Daily Mail Online

Why We Have to Go Back to a 40-Hour Work Week to Keep Our Sanity ...