Irish Players outside the Provinces 15/16

irishbucsfan · 10-09-2015 12:35am

English Lurker wrote: »

Do you think that's more a reflection of most Pro 12 teams being driven to have a low number of foreigners, or there being more money outside the Pro 12?

Often it's just down to the stage the players are at when they move abroad and a reflection of the fact the provinces are mostly all at a similar level (ie, they'd be top half of the Premiership).

Generally a guy whose gone abroad is either a guy who hasn't made his provincial academy or more often is a guy who has come through an provincial academy but hasn't stood out enough at the age of 21-23 to be offered something more permanent. Sometimes they leave before completing the academy (Michael Keating for example). Players do move between provinces, it's just rare that a guy at that age is good enough to get game time at one province but not good enough to be kept at another. The guys who do go abroad aren't receiving offers from the provinces, I know one guy who received an offer from a premiership side one summer and turned it down in order to go to Connacht the following year (although that was a good few years ago at this stage).

Squidgy Black · 10-09-2015 1:06am

connachta wrote: »

No, Wolfhounds, but I conceed the last team which lost against Saxons in Cork was a great team on the paper. I just put together Wolfhounds and Emerging, and was wrong. But still, the 23 "Irish abroad" I picked can beat emerging Ireland. That's what I meant, sorry

Not a hope, you do realise that you're saying a 23 man squad of players that consists mainly of players who weren't good enough to hold down a spot with a province, be that academy or senior squad, would beat a team of some of Ireland's up and coming players, a lot of who are close to the fringe of the Irish squad and are getting a good bit of game time with the provinces.

connachta · 10-09-2015 9:23am

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Not a hope, you do realise that you're saying a 23 man squad of players that consists mainly of players who weren't good enough to hold down a spot with a province, be that academy or senior squad, would beat a team of some of Ireland's up and coming players, a lot of who are close to the fringe of the Irish squad and are getting a good bit of game time with the provinces.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not a chance that team would beat the Emerging Ireland we sent abroad this year as far as I'm concerned. The Emerging Ireland team is better in most positions. Team in the final was:

Tiernan O'Halloran (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster)
Matt Healy (Lansdowne/Connacht)
JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)

James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Ben Marshall (Old Belvedere/Connacht)
Billy Holland (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoghan Masterson (Corinthians/Connacht)
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster)
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

That Emerging Ireland team is better in almost every position (maybe Niall Morris or Gareth Steenson would make the EI team)

That's where I can reasonably disagree

All head-to-heads of an Exiles vs Emerging would be very tight

John Andress is the starter of a rather dominant Edinburgh scrum, easily ahead of Archer. Tom Court ex-International, still can easily match Cronin

Annett was sacrificed by Ulster, might not be the right choice, apparently played a good part in Worcester accession to Premiership. He played for Baa-baas, and can hold the comparison against his ex-competitor Herring

Marshall/Holland isn't a strong pairing (even if exiles doesn't have POC, I didn't count him, Toulon is not a land of exile, but a land of post-retirement:D)

Butler and Gilsenan played greatly in any of their reduced appearences, Leavy and Masterson could be in trouble

Stringer on a one-match situation, + promising Hart match Boss+McGrath+Marmion

Same for Macken, Griffin vs Stuart McCloskey/Noel Reid and Allen+Whitten regular starters for their clubs vs Conway and Healy

I honnestly just see Conan ahead of Coughlan, and not by far on a one-game situation

And I'd love to attend this Exiles vs Emerging situation

Utah_Saint · 10-09-2015 9:43am

does anyone know how James Hart is getting on?

Is he worth bringing back to these shores? If he was showing promise I'd snap him up at Ulster. Its a serious area of weakness for us.

jacothelad · 10-09-2015 10:18am

connachta wrote: »

That's where I can reasonably disagree

All head-to-heads of an Exiles vs Emerging would be very tight

John Andress is the starter of a rather dominant Edinburgh scrum, easily ahead of Archer. Tom Court ex-International, still can easily match Cronin

Annett was sacrificed by Ulster, might not be the right choice, apparently played a good part in Worcester accession to Premiership. He played for Baa-baas, and can hold the comparison against his ex-competitor Herring

Marshall/Holland isn't a strong pairing (even if exiles doesn't have POC, I didn't count him, Toulon is not a land of exile, but a land of post-retirement:D)

Butler and Gilsenan played greatly in any of their reduced appearences, Leavy and Masterson could be in trouble

Stringer on a one-match situation, + promising Hart match Boss+McGrath+Marmion

Same for Macken, Griffin vs Stuart McCloskey/Noel Reid and Allen+Whitten regular starters for their clubs vs Conway and Healy

I honnestly just see Conan ahead of Coughlan, and not by far on a one-game situation

And I'd love to attend this Exiles vs Emerging situation

The behavioural reasons why Andress isn't at Ulster are pretty well documented. He was never as good as he thinks he is and last season he crumbled in many scrums when he played. He and Archer are probably on a par though.

Annett left entirely of his own accord. he could see where he was in the pecking order and choose to leave for 1st team action. While he is a fine hooker he isn't half the player that Herring is. No comparison at all I'm afraid.

As for Macken / Griffen v. McCloskey....only one winner there and it isn't either of Macken or Griffen.

rrpc · 10-09-2015 10:20am

Utah_Saint wrote: »

does anyone know how James Hart is getting on?

Is he worth bringing back to these shores? If he was showing promise I'd snap him up at Ulster. Its a serious area of weakness for us.

He's started one game and subbed on in another of three so far. Seems to do all the kicking when he's on. Scored 10 points out of a possible 10 in the two matches, one of which was a defeat away to Clermont where he scored all six points for Grenoble.

I'm not sure he'd want to come back tbh. Grenoble are a big outfit and had a €20 million budget last season. He's a native French speaker and was brought in by Bernard Jacknman so there'd be a lot of loyalty there.

If he wasn't playing perhaps it would be a different story, but he's getting game time (possibly through injuries; I'm not sure) at the moment.

irishbucsfan · 10-09-2015 1:54pm

Most of those emerging Ireland guys are second choice.

Last season both Andress and Annett were 2nd choice for Edinburgh and Worcester respectively, don't think you're aware of that.

connachta · 10-09-2015 4:09pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of those emerging Ireland guys are second choice.

Last season both Andress and Annett were 2nd choice for Edinburgh and Worcester respectively, don't think you're aware of that.

Andress was co-first chioce, start 10 games, bench 10, I'm aware of that fact.
And Annett was 2nd choice only because of Augustin Creevy, international star from Argentina

connachta · 10-09-2015 4:12pm

jacothelad wrote: »

As for Macken / Griffen v. McCloskey....only one winner there and it isn't either of Macken or Griffen.

An opinion of an Ulster fan, we'll talk about it at the end of the season.

irishbucsfan · 10-09-2015 4:20pm

connachta wrote: »

Andress was co-first chioce, start 10 games, bench 10, I'm aware of that fact.
And Annett was 2nd choice only because of Augustin Creevy, international star from Argentina

:pac: What are you on about? WP Nel is first choice for Edinburgh without a shadow of a doubt. Andress is not close to his level and he's struggled to get game time at clubs for the past 4 or 5 years.

The majority of those guys are simply not at the same level as the guys at home and that's exactly why they're not still in Ireland for the most part, no province was interested.

connachta · 10-09-2015 4:57pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

:pac: What are you on about? WP Nel is first choice for Edinburgh without a shadow of a doubt. Andress is not close to his level and he's struggled to get game time at clubs for the past 4 or 5 years.

The majority of those guys are simply not at the same level as the guys at home and that's exactly why they're not still in Ireland for the most part, no province was interested.

Here are the official facts

2014-2015 - Guinness PRO12
Andress
Edinburgh Rugby
played 9 +10
Nel
2014-2015 - Guinness PRO12
Edinburgh Rugby
13 +8

connachta · 10-09-2015 5:04pm

But I don't advocate for Andress,

Annett, Griffin, Macken, Butler, Steenson, are up to the Emerging level by far. So Exiles as a whole can build a correct team for a head-to-head.

connemara man · 10-09-2015 5:05pm

connachta wrote: »

An opinion of an Ulster fan, we'll talk about it at the end of the season.

McCloskey has future international written all over him! I feel bad for him that he's behind so many in Ulster when the Internationals are back. He'd start in Munster currently imo and in Connacht possibly Leinster

irishbucsfan · 10-09-2015 5:06pm

connachta wrote: »

Here are the official facts

2014-2015 - Guinness PRO12
Andress
Edinburgh Rugby
played 9 +10
Nel
2014-2015 - Guinness PRO12
Edinburgh Rugby
13 +8

Ian Madigan 2012-13 Pro 12 - 18 Starts +5 Sub Appearances

Jonny Sexton 2012-13 Pro 12 - 10 Starts

"Official Facts" mean nothing out of context. Madigan was not first choice and neither was Andress.

rrpc · 10-09-2015 5:09pm

connachta wrote: »

Here are the official facts

2014-2015 - Guinness PRO12
Andress
Edinburgh Rugby
played 9 +10
Nel
2014-2015 - Guinness PRO12
Edinburgh Rugby
13 +8

What those stats don't say is the calibre of game that each are starting in. Nel started in all European games and is now a capped international for Scotland.

connachta · 10-09-2015 5:09pm

connemara man wrote: »

McCloskey has future international written all over him! I feel bad for him that he's behind so many in Ulster when the Internationals are back. He'd start in Munster currently imo and in Connacht possibly Leinster

Not above Aki/Henshaw FFS! if by currently you meant during RWC ok maybe..

English Lurker · 10-09-2015 5:12pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Often it's just down to the stage the players are at when they move abroad and a reflection of the fact the provinces are mostly all at a similar level (ie, they'd be top half of the Premiership).

Generally a guy whose gone abroad is either a guy who hasn't made his provincial academy or more often is a guy who has come through an provincial academy but hasn't stood out enough at the age of 21-23 to be offered something more permanent. Sometimes they leave before completing the academy (Michael Keating for example). Players do move between provinces, it's just rare that a guy at that age is good enough to get game time at one province but not good enough to be kept at another. The guys who do go abroad aren't receiving offers from the provinces, I know one guy who received an offer from a premiership side one summer and turned it down in order to go to Connacht the following year (although that was a good few years ago at this stage).

Think you missed where I was going there - not why these guys are going abroad rather than staying in Ireland, but rather why are virtually none of these guys ending up in Scotland/Wales/Italy when they do go. And I know a lot of them leave at a standard where the rest of the Pro 12 wouldn't be interested - but some of them do, and a fair few of them rise to the standard in the Championship. Robin Copeland would be a good example of that, but as far as I now, he's the only one.

irishbucsfan · 10-09-2015 5:20pm

English Lurker wrote: »

Think you missed where I was going there - not why these guys are going abroad rather than staying in Ireland, but rather why are virtually none of these guys ending up in Scotland/Wales/Italy when they do go. And I know a lot of them leave at a standard where the rest of the Pro 12 wouldn't be interested - but some of them do, and a fair few of them rise to the standard in the Championship. Robin Copeland would be a good example of that, but as far as I now, he's the only one.

Well firstly the Pro 12 sides are pushed very hard by their unions to develop local talent. If they bring in foreign guys they usually only want starters (unlike in tier 2 in France/England).

The guys leaving Ireland are very rarely at a standard where they would be reliable Pro 12 starters. Tommy Seymour and Michael Allen caught on in Scotland but the Welsh sides would generally not be interested in guys not making the grade at the Irish provinces.

I think there's a financial element as well, there are better offers on the table from 2nd tier of the English or French system than from Pro 12 sides. In England/France they're making offers for starting players whereas for Pro 12 sides it'd be as squad cover. Sides like Dragons and the Italians can call up Premiership/Super10 guys temporarily if they get caught, which I'd imagine reduces their interest in paying Irish guys full time.

connemara man · 10-09-2015 5:23pm

connachta wrote: »

Not above Aki/Henshaw FFS! if by currently you meant during RWC ok maybe..

I personally think having McCloskey inside Henshaw would create the room for him to be at his best. He's a constant threat on the gainline.
That's nothing against Aki I just think he's a different type of 12 and the balance could be better with a McCloskey type inside him

connachta · 10-09-2015 5:45pm

Aki saved us by himself against 6-7 Dragons players, he's unmovable. Sad they had so little gametime together, because Akishaw is the best pairing in Ireland. Only position where Connacht can claim that tittle

rrpc · 10-09-2015 5:51pm

connachta wrote: »

Aki saved us by himself against 6-7 Dragons players, he's unmovable. Sad they had so little gametime together, because Akishaw is the best pairing in Ireland. Only position where Connacht can claim that tittle

It's terrible when you've got no tittles...

total former · 10-09-2015 6:33pm

Aki and Henshaw are so good they'll surely be benching in ProD2 before long.

connachta · 10-09-2015 7:39pm

total former wrote: »

Aki and Henshaw are so good they'll surely be benching in ProD2 before long.

With Darce and Fitz in federale 1 in this case:)

connachta · 11-09-2015 9:17am

Province of Meath 46-men squad for the season

NIQ n°1
Tom Court Prop
Paddy McAllister Prop
Jack O'Connell Prop
John Andress Prop
Denis Coulson Prop
Dave Ryan Prop

Niall Annett Hooker
Denis Fogarty Hooker
Project player n°1
Tyrone Moran Hooker

POC Lock
Eoin Sheriff Lock
Donnacha O'Callaghan Lock
Darren O'Shea Lock
Jerry Sexton Lock
Mark Flanagan Lock
Ed O'Donoghue Lock

NIQ n°2
Conor Gilsenan Flanker
Paddy Butler Back row
James Coughlan Back row
Sean Dougall Back row
Charlie Butterworth Back row

James Hart Scrum-half
Project player n°2 (playing 9/10)
Peter Stringer Scrum-Half
Michael Heaney Scrum-half

Gareth Steenson Fly-Half
JJ Hanrahan Fly-Half
James McKinney Fly-Half

Eoin Griffin Centre
Brendan Macken Centre
Chris Farrell Centre
Eamonn Sheridan Centre
James Downey Centre

(Danny Barnes Centre/Wing)
NIQ N°3 (Centre/Wing)

Michael Allen Wing
Ian Whitten Wing
Darren Hudson Wing
Michael Keating Wing

(David McIlwaine Fullback/Wing)

Niall Morris Fullback
Sean Scanlon Fullback
Peter Lydon Fullback

Stadium : Dubarry Park
Coach : Connachta
Attack and aggressiveness coach : irishbucsfan
Defence coach : Zippy
Official Mascot : total former:D

bilston · 11-09-2015 9:21am

connachta wrote: »

An opinion of an Ulster fan, we'll talk about it at the end of the season.

Indeed we will

connachta · 12-09-2015 6:13pm

Andress saved Edinburgh on the last scrum
McCloskley didn't do the same at all

Was right, for the week-end at least:D

irishbucsfan · 12-09-2015 6:18pm

connachta wrote: »

Andress saved Edinburgh on the last scrum
McCloskley didn't do the same at all

Was right, for the week-end at least:D

You were 100% factually incorrect when you said Andress was first choice. Nothing else has been proven.

McCloskey was great for Ulster by the way.

connachta · 12-09-2015 7:06pm

I've said he was co-first choice, he proved it today. Enough to be in touch with Archer/AhYou of emerging Ireland

irishbucsfan · 12-09-2015 7:24pm

connachta wrote: »

I've said he was co-first choice, he proved it today. Enough to be in touch with Archer/AhYou of emerging Ireland

Well he certainly wasn't first choice in any shape way or form. He was 2nd choice and WP Nel was first choice when he was fit, you need to accept that. If he was first choice he would have started in Europe.

He's not going to get near an Irish squad. He has major attitude issues and has burnt too many bridges even if he wasn't too old to be worth bringing into the fold.

connachta · 12-09-2015 7:29pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well he certainly wasn't first choice in any shape way or form. He was 2nd choice and WP Nel was first choice when he was fit, you need to accept that. If he was first choice he would have started in Europe.

He's not going to get near an Irish squad. He has major attitude issues and has burnt too many bridges even if he wasn't too old to be worth bringing into the fold.

That's not my point at all to include him in the Irish squad. I was just refering to Exiles vs Emerging, and said Andress among most of my 23 Exiles selection can well hold against their Emerging counterparts and give them a good test match

Irish Players outside the Provinces 15/16

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