Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

mayo.mick

km79 wrote: »

very good article in the Irish times written by an ex northern footballer Paddy Heaney
sorry can't link it
basically says the players sacrifice so much they are entitled to have their say if they think things are not right

Is it the same article I was reading last night by Paddy Heany I wonder?

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2015/10/06/news/against-the-breeze-284245/?param=ds12rif76F

davegrohl48

Our attack still needs work as well. It's a strategy that is far too vulnerable to a blanket like Tyrones or to wet weather. Look at the Dublin scores versus our scores. Are Diarmuid, Cillian and Lee going to shoot those 45 yard points from outside the scoring zone on a wet day? Also the way we attack we are handpassing and soloing too much. It is very tiring on the players.
But yes if we could get any one thing corrected the concession of goals is the main thing.

km79

mayo.mick wrote: »

Is it the same article I was reading last night by Paddy Heany I wonder?

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2015/10/06/news/against-the-breeze-284245/?param=ds12rif76F

thats it thanks
That explains why I could not find it on Irish times website

robbiezero

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

You should never go back! It worked out ok for JBM in Cork. Any other GAA examples where a manager went back and was a success?

Wouldn't have said JBM's second coming was a success. Even their Munster final success in 2014 was a hollow victory, giving the absolute hiding they got in the semi-final.
Granted he was a puck of a ball from winning the All-Ireland in 2013, but it was a very poor year. Overall, Cork have gone backwards.

TCDStudent1

robbiezero wrote: »

Wouldn't have said JBM's second coming was a success. Even their Munster final success in 2014 was a hollow victory, giving the absolute hiding they got in the semi-final.
Granted he was a puck of a ball from winning the All-Ireland in 2013, but it was a very poor year. Overall, Cork have gone backwards.

Yeah after typing it, I said to myself "hmm its probably debatable if his 2nd term was a success". In fairness, I think he did well with what he has available.

TCDStudent1

mayo.mick wrote: »

Is it the same article I was reading last night by Paddy Heany I wonder?

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2015/10/06/news/against-the-breeze-284245/?param=ds12rif76F

Good article. But he fails to realise that those car journeys are probably far more valuable than any medal will ever be.

seligehgit

Very decent article by Mike Quirke

To know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice

The Mayo footballers and Galway hurlers are taking a bit of a public relations battering in the last week or so for the manner in which they seem to have ousted, and are attempting to oust, their respective management teams.


Whatever about the honesty of their motives and genuine concerns about maximising their potential, the situation in Mayo has been handled poorly and treated with all the discretion and sensitivity of a fire alarm.

Doors have been around long enough in Ireland for people to have learned how to close them and handle their business in a private and more dignified manner. This is a story that should never have become such a public drama, and the Mayo management team should have been spared the public indignation of being dropped like some contestant with a croaky voice on X Factor who didn’t get enough votes.

It’s not a game show for those guys either and they, along with their friends and families will have been hurt and blind-sided by the players’ mutiny.


But were the players right or wrong? Personally, I don’t like how it was done, but I have no problem with them making that call if they felt strongly that it was for the good of the collective.

‘Cowardly’ was the word that jumped off the page at me when it was used by somebody to describe the actions of the Mayo squad early in the week. I wouldn’t subscribe to that sentiment.

Cowardly describes a person who is content enough to go along with the flow, afraid to choose a different path and upset the status quo. Cowardly is keeping your head down, and being afraid to speak up for yourself even when you know you probably should.

Cowardly to my mind, is sitting inside a private players meeting, and saying; ‘lads, I really don’t believe we can win an All-Ireland with these guys managing us, but we’ll say nothing, because if we do we’ll get lambasted from every corner’.

That’s not the level of honesty that wins you All-Irelands.



It would be a far more cowardly act in my opinion if Aidan O’Shea, Tom Parsons, Keith Higgins, Cillian O’Connor or any of the rest of them woke up in 10 years time and said: ‘we should have stood up for ourselves with greater conviction, and forced a change and we might have won one.’ And who knows, maybe none of these players will ever win the All-Ireland, but don’t call them cowards for wanting to give themselves the best possible chance.

Confucius put it best when he said “to know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice”.

What this Mayo football squad have done took a great deal of courage, along with brass balls. They knew the public ridicule and increased pressure and scrutiny they would be drawing on their shoulders but they did it anyway. Have no doubt, if Mayo do not win the All-Ireland next September, these events will be pulled out of the archives and used as a rod to beat them with for the weeks and months after.

The point I always make about managers is this: They seem to get a completely disproportionate amount of praise or blame depending on the result of any particular game, and I have a huge degree of sympathy for Noel Connolly and Pat Holmes — who did the classy thing by the way — and extricated themselves from an ugly situation quick-smart.

I know little about how they prepared their squad, only what we could see in front of us on game day. They were only a firmer kick of Lee Keegan’s right boot away from going five points up on Dublin in the final quarter of this year’s epic semi-final replay and within touching distance of an All-Ireland final appearance in their first year in charge. From the outside, you would have thought they were doing something right.

But crucially, I, you, and almost everybody writing or talking about their situation is on the outside. Only the players inside in that group truly know what has led them to forcing the hand of their county board and backed their now former managers into an untenable position. One can only imagine the players must have been distinctly unhappy with aspects of their set-up to take such radical action and declare a motion of no-confidence in their joint managers.



If the players didn’t perceive Connolly and Holmes as the guys to get them to All Ireland glory, then it really didn’t matter what their managers said or did next season, without the unconditional backing and belief of their players, the had no chance of success.

Ultimately, the players inside the white line dictate the result of every contest. A manager can only do so much. But players must have that faith in their gaffer, a trust he is doing things the right way, for the right reasons. This Mayo bunch were spoiled with the calibre of James Horan, Cian O’Neill, and Donie Buckley at various times in their management set-up.

They were getting the very best coaching and sports science back-up that was available within this country. Donie is still involved and I know him to be the ultimate professional, and the players campaigned last year to get him to stay on, so we know they are fans of his work.

Would this Mayo squad win the All-Ireland if Jim McGuinness was their manger in the new year, or would the players be satisfied if their county board sent representation down to south Kerry to proposition Jack O’Connor and prize him away from the Kerry U21 gig? These are the only type of guys that will satisfy their need for proven quality. Guys who have been there recently and won the whole thing. Managers they know are authentic winners with a proven track record.

The problem for Mayo is there aren’t too many of these guys on the circuit. Will bookies’ favourite Stephen Rochford be the guy to bring it all together? Time will tell.

Current coaching science literature suggests the coaching process is more of a dynamic, social interaction between coach and player, and is far more about winning hearts and minds than simply the delivery of coaching sessions.

The problem for Connolly and Holmes? Their players’ hearts belonged to another.

There’s nothing cowardly about taking ownership of your own destiny.

TCDStudent1

Rawhead wrote: »

Two distinctive camps regarding the players actions in the press
1. Old generation like Breheny, McGee (great manager, buffon of a journalist) Maughan who see any inclining of player empowerment as heresy.
2. Younger journalists, many from a playing background who can see that the players must have had serious reason to do what they did, although not necessarily agreeing with them.

On Maughan, who I believe is our new U21 manager that they haven't just announced yet, surely given his "strong" views expressed on the radio at the weekend, any senior player on that panel will struggle to get a fair crack of the whip. Given that he would have been aware of his appointment, despite the charade of an interview process, his comments towards the players were ill timed at best and downright incendiary at worst.

(1) I have heard murmurings over the past couple of weeks about the reasons the players were unhappy. Some of those were reported in the Sunday Independent last Sunday so I am not sure why the media think Mayo have a total veil of secrecy over the reasons for their dissatisfaction with the management. Personally, I think the players should release a statement thanking the management etc & outlining their reasons for wanting a change in an official manner. I would like this for the following reasons:

- The GAA is made up of many parties. The players are always the most important. However, fans are important too and should be respected and informed to some degree. Fans deserve to know why a management that had a reasonably decent championship record are not deemed good enough to continue in the job. Fans deserve to hear this directly from the people who caused the management to leave. When a county board does not re-appoint a manager, they always release a statement at least thanking him for his time etc. In this case, the players were the cause & they should at least acknowledge the effort of Mayo management.

- The county board should be left in absolutely no doubt as to who the players think is a suitable candidate. This has to happen to ensure that there is no repeat of this next year. They cannot afford to let the same situation arise again next year. Players should never be allowed to pick a manager as there will always be a few stronger characters in a panel that will go for a manager that suits them, and not suit the panel. The same logic could be applied to any senior players consulted privately over the appointment of a new manager. Having outlined publicly exactly what everybody wants would put each player on the panel on a more equal footing.

However, I suspect the players do not want to release a statement because they don't want to be seen publicly sticking the dagger into the management. A commendable attitude, but misguided. For me, the players not doing anything now is more cowardly than their heave. What happens if another manager they don't like gets appointed? I guess they have will have a good exuse when they lose the AI semi final / final next year.....

(2) I don't see why that would be the case at all. At the end of the day, Maughan will want to do as well as he can. I cant see him holding any grudge over this.

Shurimgreat

So will the players get to interview the new manager before he is appointed??

DoctaDee

By way of coincidence, I was speaking to someone involved in the Dublin set up last Friday - his extended family would have an ear very close to the ground in Mayo GAA circles. According to his take on things, the "heave" was gathering pace some 3 months ago (prior to any of the perceived tactical shortcomings been stated now) - he certainly left me with the impression that the MCB were aware of the unrest.

yop

DoctaDee wrote: »

By way of coincidence, I was speaking to someone involved in the Dublin set up last Friday - his extended family would have an ear very close to the ground in Mayo GAA circles. According to his take on things, the "heave" was gathering pace some 3 months ago (prior to any of the perceived tactical shortcomings been stated now) - he certainly left me with the impression that the MCB were aware of the unrest.

MCB were FULLY aware of all this. This kicked off after the Dublin game in the league. There were a number of issues and promises that these would be resolved. They weren't.
But MCB saying they weren't aware is pure BS.

Fr Tod Umptious

DoctaDee wrote: »

By way of coincidence, I was speaking to someone involved in the Dublin set up last Friday - his extended family would have an ear very close to the ground in Mayo GAA circles. According to his take on things, the "heave" was gathering pace some 3 months ago (prior to any of the perceived tactical shortcomings been stated now) - he certainly left me with the impression that the MCB were aware of the unrest.

Well its not tactical shortcomings that were the problem I don't think, that's just stuff being thrown about by people here who have researched the game 12 times and read Jim McGuiness's take on it 8 times

The problem it seems, based on Clirkins article, was about the overall preparation and "professional approach".

Until some player tell us what the root of their problem with the management team was we shall still only guess.

TCDStudent1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Until some player tell us what the root of their problem with the management team was we shall still only guess.

There were a couple of specific issues mentioned in a Sunday independent article last week.

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

There were a couple of specific issues mentioned in a Sunday independent article last week.

Any link. Any details ?

TCDStudent1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Any link. Any details ?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/damian-lawlor-shambolic-appointment-process-sowed-seeds-of-discontent-in-mayo-31580050.html

DoctaDee

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well its not tactical shortcomings that were the problem I don't think, that's just stuff being thrown about by people here who have researched the game 12 times and read Jim McGuiness's take on it 8 times

The problem it seems, based on Clirkins article, was about the overall preparation and "professional approach".

Until some player tell us what the root of their problem with the management team was we shall still only guess.

Oh absolutely agree .. Mayo football-wise were riding the crest of the wave 3 months ago .. the latter narrative of their tactical approach began after Brollys post match "Masters of Disaster" analysis ..so there would appear on that basis to have been something intrinsically wrong in the set up prior to this - Yop suggests it reared it's head after the Dublin game last March in Castlebar.

Personally, I can't decide which side of the fence I'm on .... I've been in the dressing room the year after we won a county title with a new manager and backroom team and some of the lads just didn't buy into it .. you can be the best manager out there, but if the players aren't in on it the rancour just keeps building and there's no hope.

Did H&C get everything wrong - no, nor did they get everything right, it's the same in every set up throughout the country - whatever it was that those closest to it feel that it was worth taking a public stand on - I hope there is some validation in their cause.

yop

DoctaDee wrote: »

Oh absolutely agree .. Mayo football-wise were riding the crest of the wave 3 months ago .. the latter narrative of their tactical approach began after Brollys post match "Masters of Disaster" analysis ..so there would appear on that basis to have been something intrinsically wrong in the set up prior to this - Yop suggests it reared it's head after the Dublin game last March in Castlebar.

Personally, I can't decide which side of the fence I'm on .... I've been in the dressing room the year after we won a county title with a new manager and backroom team and some of the lads just didn't buy into it .. you can be the best manager out there, but if the players aren't in on it the rancour just keeps building and there's no hope.

Did H&C get everything wrong - no, nor did they get everything right, it's the same in every set up throughout the country - whatever it was that those closest to it feel that it was worth taking a public stand on - I hope there is some validation in their cause.

Absolutely agree, if it comes out that its some petty disagreement then they will look very silly and destroy the massive loyal Mayo fan base.
Its already split fan opinion.

seligehgit

TBH I'd imagine the vast majority of the support base have not turned against the players.

yop

seligehgit wrote: »

TBH I'd imagine the vast majority of the support base have not turned against the players.

Ya but the minute it goes wrong then that will surface.

ColeTrain

yop wrote: »

Ya but the minute it goes wrong then that will surface.

I don't think so. The players are well respected around the county.

Rawhead

yop wrote: »

Ya but the minute it goes wrong then that will surface.

This group of players have forever earned the respect and admiration of the supporters. The vast, vast majority of supporters feel that this group of players have earned the right to make the call they made. I have enormous respect for H&C, Noel especially, even more so for the way they stepped aside for the betterment of the county. However, make no mistake about it, the people of Mayo stood behind the players.

Blackjack

Rawhead wrote: »

This group of players have forever earned the respect and admiration of the supporters. The vast, vast majority of supporters feel that this group of players have earned the right to make the call they made. I have enormous respect for H&C, Noel especially, even more so for the way they stepped aside for the betterment of the county. However, make no mistake about it, the people of Mayo stood behind the players.

I'd share this view too.

yop

Rawhead wrote: »

This group of players have forever earned the respect and admiration of the supporters. The vast, vast majority of supporters feel that this group of players have earned the right to make the call they made. I have enormous respect for H&C, Noel especially, even more so for the way they stepped aside for the betterment of the county. However, make no mistake about it, the people of Mayo stood behind the players.

Hopefully ya. We've been through worse and stuck behind them!

LeoB

As an outsider with a big interest in Mayo football and G.A.A. in general I find in a lot of counties the players have too much power. There is no doubting the respect the players who have represented Mayo over the last have not just in Mayo but all over the country.

However this does not give them the right select who the manager is or who he should be. If someone was not happy with Jim Gavin in Dublin they would be gone off the panel as has happened to a few lads or Fitzmaurice in Kerry. The biggest mistakes were made on the field, simple errors in a league match you would not give too much thought to. A slip or a misguided pass, a moment of indecision, look at Killian Young dropping the ball in the final. No recriminations there. H & C put out teams on each day most Dubs thought would be too strong and Mayo would finally get their deserved day in the sun. That Mayo didnt win was only H or C fault.

The focus after the past month should be who is playing well in the club championship, new faces for 2016. No matter who gets the job could be in for a rough time unless the All-Ireland is delivered.

As a side not I saw Mortimor playing for Parnells twice recently and he still has a sweet left foot. score 4 point in one game and 1..3 in the other.

Good luck for 2016. The glass is always half full

Squatman

LeoB wrote: »

As a side not I saw Mortimor playing for Parnells twice recently and he still has a sweet left foot. score 4 point in one game and 1..3 in the other.

Good luck for 2016. The glass is always half full

g'way to fook

seligehgit

So any of the good folk of the Mayo GAA forum heading up to that attractive double header in McHale Park tomorrow?

martyos121

seligehgit wrote: »

So any of the good folk of the Mayo GAA forum heading up to that attractive double header in McHale Park tomorrow?

What time is the Mitchels match on at? I'm only a 20 minute walk away so if it doesn't interfere with the rugby I'll be going.

seligehgit

Ballintubber v Breaffy at 1 and Castlebar Mitchels v Knockmore at 2.30.

martyos121

Perfect, will head in for both so.

Club football from 1-4, rugby at 5 and the soccer at 8, some day ahead!

PARlance

Nice win for Breaffy, 4-7 to 1-12.